![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 5:09:43
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by sleepygirl on July 19, 2005, at 22:55:32
An article about PKC and anxiety
www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/medizin_gesundheit/bericht-13335.html
An article about CRF1 and anxiety
www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cdtcnsnd/2002/00000001/00000005/art00002
Astressin a CRF antagonist
www.biopsychiatry.com/astressin.htm
Posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 13:25:40
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by sleepygirl on July 19, 2005, at 22:55:32
IT is part of the second messenger system and controls the release of brain chemicals and prolongs SE in the synapse.PKA controls the reuptake of SE.PKA and PKC are belived to be defective in OCD.THe SE stays in the synapse too long and the signal from the caudate is not terminated.This is why you cannot stop thinking about something or being prompted to do something ,like washing your hands.Signal duration seems to be a big problem in mental illness.
Posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 17:37:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 13:25:40
I certainly notice the signal duration effects when I have anxious days. My mind seems hyped up and over excited and everything seems to go too fast.
The mind and body are intrinsically linked, did abnormal thought processes cause the brain to malfunction? Or was a malfunction in the brain the cause of the abnormal thinking which caused a vicious cycle. It's a chicken and the egg sort of situation. At present I think it's a bit of both. Maybe one triggers the other and either can be the initial cause of the problems.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 17:37:32
You need to read about NE .You will find that a raceing mind is due to high levels of NE.One Ne receptor releases Ne and the other one Stops it.Ne and dopamine are closely related.I am 100% sure it is a bain disorder.Choline can stop it.
Posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
Pretend you are talking to a kindergartner and please explain what NE is and all the other capitalized letters that make no sense to this 5 year old. ROFL
I am fascinated with this conversation even though I have absolutely no idea what in the world you all are talking about.
I have anxiety and occasional panic attacks. I definitely have anxious thoughts and am "high strung."
If I can decode those letters, I might can get some help for myself. LOL
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 1:17:17
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
Read about the amgdala and it,s role in causeing anxiety,panic and phobias.Joseph Le Doux at New York University did all the work on it.Social anxiety also comes from the amgdala.A hyperactive right amygdala.The amygdala stores fear memories.It is very powerful.It will take you over.Also study the sympathtic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system.You can learn to stop panic attacks with brain exercises.
Posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:03:18
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
CRF = Corticotropon Releasing Hormone
NE = Norepinephrine
ACTH= Adrenocorticotropic Hormone
PKC = Protein Kinase C
LC = Locus Coeruleus
T1a and T2a are Serotonin Receptors
OFC = Orbital Front Cortex
PKA = Protein Kinase A
DAG = Diacylglycerol
I think they are all correct
Posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
> You need to read about NE .You will find that a raceing mind is due to high levels of NE.One Ne receptor releases Ne and the other one Stops it.Ne and dopamine are closely related.I am 100% sure it is a bain disorder.Choline can stop it.
I bought some Lecithin today, is that a good enough source of Choline?
1 Dose = Phosphatidyl Choline 886mg
Phosphatidyl Inositol 504mg
Choline 130mg
Inositol 100mg
Phosphorus 110mgIt says to take this dose 3 times a day, or should I buy a seperate Choline supplement?
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 20:52:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
lethicin is fine.Read about the orbitol frontal cortex .You are trying to turn on the parasympathtic nervous system .It stops anxiety.The brain chemical ,atch, turns on the parasympathic nervous system.Ne turns on the sympathic nervous system.Read about it.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 21:11:38
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
Acetylcholine is the brain chemical that turns on the parasympathtic nervous system.SSRI drugs can block it and cause brain fog.Your brain cannot work without it.It does many things .The hypothalmus is effected by NE and acetylcholine.Deep breathing effects the hypothalmus. Overstimulation of T2a receptors by ssri drugs can cause anxiety.Also cause mania.
Posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 21:11:38
YES.. SSRI's caused me to be anxious and caused me to be put into a manic state (and yet I did have brain fog along with the mania). that makes perfect sense.
Can you tell me in in the simplest form HOW or WHAT to do (or take) to target this anxiety?
I looked up as much as I could but didn't understand half of it.
Remember..... blonde here. ROFL
Posted by Declan on July 22, 2005, at 1:49:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
Let me guess what ROFL means. Rolled onto the floor laughing??
Declan
Posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
New Anxiolytic drugs based on PKC, CRF agonists will take time to test and it will be a long while I feel before any new anxiolytic drugs come along.
With the exception of benzodiazepine drugs, all other anti anxiety drugs are anti depressants. So we need something new and that targets the anxiety causing pathways better, PKC, CRF, CCK4 and Adenosine agonist agents are being currently researched and one or more of these may be a step forward in treating anxiety/panic and other mental disorders.
So what can you do in the meantime? Well I'm currently taking Omega 3,6,9 oils and Lecithin Granules (very cheap). I am also learning relaxation techniques and using some NLP techniques which are very useful. I recommend Paul McKenna's Success for Life CDs, Brian Tracy's - The Science of Self Confidence CDs and a great book to read so I've heard is Shad Helmstetter - What to Say When You Talk to Your Self, I have this on order and can't wait to read it.
Posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:47:23
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
I just want to make an important change to my previous posting, they are antagonist agents and not agonist.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 22, 2005, at 14:52:42
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
Read Mapping The Brain by Rita Carter. mental illness is a medical mystery.The cause and cure are unknown.Untill lithium was discovered there was nothing for manic depression.It only works in 50% of cases.Also it is toxic.Maybe space aliens will land with a cure.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 14:58:24
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 22, 2005, at 14:52:42
> Read Mapping The Brain by Rita Carter.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 27, 2005, at 12:14:37
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 22, 2005, at 14:52:42
> Read Mapping The Brain by Rita Carter. mental illness is a medical mystery.The cause and cure are unknown.Untill lithium was discovered there was nothing for manic depression.It only works in 50% of cases.Also it is toxic.Maybe space aliens will land with a cure.
I have to add here that certain mental illness is not mysterious at all and are curable. As my example, I'll use the following: people with certain viral infections are treated with immune boosting agents called cytokines. These people, as a direct result, become clinically depressed, sometimes to the point of suicide. They are disinterested in life, anxious, tired, etc. The whole nine yards. Then, when the medicine is discontinued, they experience a complete recovery. There no disputing the fact that the immune system can cause depression, within this line of evidence.
Interesting, they can treat people who are experiencing interleukin induced depression with an SSRI and they get better.
Another interesting fact is that people with major depression have - guess what - raised levels of interleukin 6. I shall also mention that St. John's Wort and many SSRI's are potent IL-6 inhibitors.
Animal studies show that animals injected with bacterial toxins like LPS induce depressive-like illness. Also, interleukin-1 induces depressive-like illness in animals. Again, chronic treatment with antidepressants relieves the depression caused by the immune system. Cytokines can alter serotonin and norepinephrine levels.
What is being said here is that activation of the immune system can cause depression and an SSRI can make it better. Prozac is not a cure, but fixing the deranged immune system IS THE
CURE, at least in some cases, certainly not all.On a related note, if you go on boards that are involved in alternative treatments of gut disorders like IBD and IBS, you'll find certain common things:
1. A lot of these people were told by doctors that they have no sort of infection that can be found, thus were told they have IBD or IBS.
2. A lot of these people also have comorbid mental disorders... depression, anxiety.
3. Some of these people found out later, directly or indirectly, that they indeed to have an infection.
4. As a result of these people ridding themself of the infection, they no longer have mental illness.
5. A lot of these people, myself included, experience symptoms of a mental disorder when they eat food that there body has an immunological reaction to. Prime example being the high incidence of ADHD and depression in people with gluten intolerance. Removal of the offending food is a CURE for the depression.
All of the above is anecdotal evidence, thus I cannot say I am "proving" anything, per se. As far as truth is concerned, I am absolutely certain that gluten causes a large portion of my mental strains. There's the cause, removal of gluten is the cure.
Just thought I'd share some information on what I've learned, since it contradicts what you're saying to some extent.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 27, 2005, at 14:21:19
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 27, 2005, at 12:14:37
This is interesting:
... More information to suggest that cytokines might be involved in depression and that the important action of these tricyclics is not norepinephrine or serotonin reuptake, but rather, cytokine modulation.Also:
More:
This one says, importantly, that "IL-6 levels correlated significantly with mood ratings."
Posted by buddhi on July 30, 2005, at 12:06:37
In reply to Re: Panic, Theanine, Bacopa, posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 18:51:04
> Bacopa seemed to work, I felt like laughing at things more, but the longer I took it the more agitated I became. Sceletium seems to have effects like SSRIs and agitates me.
>
> I have tried Theanine in powdered form from BAC and bulknutrition, it's effects are very minimal for me. I'm guessing I would have to take a gram or two to feel anything.
>
> I've also tried Kava Kava a few brands, I think the only stuff that really works is from say konakavafarm from what I've heard. It would be useful for days when I feel wired, that wired feeling is probably the cells in the brain firing off all the time and I know that I'm really susceptible to panic attacks when I get this wired feeling. Other days I feel quite confident that I won't panic.
>
> A lot of effects are hard to judge, some of it is real and some is in the mind. With something like a benzo you have no doubt it works as you can't help notice the effects, other stuff is more subtle. At present I can only say that Omega oils seem to be helping a lot with anxiety and this wasn't something I was expecting.
>
> I don't expect any new pharmaceuticals for anxiety /panic disorder for a few years yet. The current anxiolytics I feel are crude.
>
> Have you checked bulknutrition for Theanine? BAC stopped shipping internationally so I use bulknutrition, it doesn't have the range, but has the main things I'm looking at.What brand of bacopa were you taking and how much???? I would love to laugh more!!!!! thanks buddhi amy@pause.com
Posted by nolvas on July 30, 2005, at 16:09:34
In reply to Bacopa question for ya » nolvas, posted by buddhi on July 30, 2005, at 12:06:37
I used powered bacopa from bulknutrition.com. I bought 75 grams. It tastes pretty bad and it wasn't the same as the bacopa I bought from Beyond a Century, it's a lighter colour and saltier tasting. I can't say which was the best, they both seemed to work ok.
Posted by cheermom on May 13, 2010, at 14:57:02
In reply to Re: Bacopa question for ya, posted by nolvas on July 30, 2005, at 16:09:34
I just want to say that my daughter is 14. She has OCD and occaasional panic disorders.I researched and read every book I could find on this subject. I read a chapter on treatment without prescriptions. It suggested Lethicin, Grape seed extact and inositol. I have to say a month after i started her on this she was almost symtom free with only an OCD thought every now and then. At that time she was having panic attacks all over germs. That was 3.5 years ago and up until recently she has been OCD symptom free. I just started her back on them again 1 round in the morning and 1 at night. It is already helping!
Posted by jerryjohn on May 27, 2010, at 16:34:52
In reply to Re: Bacopa question for ya, posted by cheermom on May 13, 2010, at 14:57:02
I noticed the messages on Panic attacks and anxiety are back in 05. Whats the latest news on the newest help.
Posted by jerryjohn on May 27, 2010, at 16:42:58
In reply to Re: Bacopa question for ya, posted by cheermom on May 13, 2010, at 14:57:02
The Lethicin, Grape Seed Extract, and inositol combination seemed to work great for your Daughter for OCD and Panic. What was the combination exactly, as I've been working on many herbs for anxiety and this sounds like a real find.
Posted by jerryjohn on May 27, 2010, at 17:35:27
In reply to Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 17, 2005, at 18:27:14
This research was very impressing and I plan to research it all, as I wrote down everything and right now it appears the best solution for a natural way to combat anxiety, or in its severe form Panic is to study the mind, especially the right side of the amygdala (fear), which is most disabling and disruptive. The Lecithin combination is workable is I knew the right amts., as you said Lecithin is as ggod as Choline. The one formula of Novalas with lecithin using phosphatidyl inositol 504 gr. and choline, 130 gr., and inositol 100mg. and phosphorus, 110 mg. all available at a compound pharmacy. Need some help on these or the web as a resource.
Posted by Deneb on May 27, 2010, at 21:03:17
In reply to Re: Bacopa question for ya, posted by cheermom on May 13, 2010, at 14:57:02
Hello cheermom!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for sharing what worked for your daughter. I'm glad you found something that works. OCD can be a devastating illness.
Deneb
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.