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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 10, 2010, at 9:24:40
I am dabbling in Chinese herbs, but I am trying to be careful as I take medication for my depression. I am trying a couple of herbs such as ginger and licorice root. I'm discovering that you only need a very small dosage to be effective and to avoid side effects. For example, I take a 250mg capsule of ginger and dump half of it out. Ginger helps increase oxygen to the brain as does gingko, but gingko also acts to increase acetylcholine in the brain. I'm trying to avoid taking herbs that directly affect neurotransmitters. Anyway, I tend to have more energy with ginger, just a small dosage. Licorice root helps to calm the nerves. Again, you only need a small dosage to avoid side effects. For example, I take a 450mg capsule of licorice root and dump half of it out. I could probably dump out 2/3 of a capsule and still see an effect from it. The herbs are potent. You don't need a lot. Licorice root is calming, but if you take too much it could make you lethargic. I'm sure there are other Chinese herbs that are beneficial for depression. The ones I'm interested in mainly are root herbs. They seem to work best for me. Just thought I'd pass this information on to anyone interested.
Posted by Hombre on April 12, 2010, at 2:34:15
In reply to Chinese herbs, posted by Lao Tzu on April 10, 2010, at 9:24:40
Chinese herbs are usually used in complex formulas. Some herbs are the main herbs, some augment the main herbs, and some reduce side effects. Traditional Chinese medical theory is complex and it takes many years to become adept at diagnosing.
While I was living in Taiwan, several Chinese doctors were able to tell things about my lifestyle just from taking my pulse. Over there, Chinese medicine is dispensed in Govt. standardized powder extracts and blended specifically according to the doctor's prescription. It's also very inexpensive even without the superb national healthcare program they have there. Like $5 a visit including medication for a week.
In short, please see a qualified Chinese physician if interesting in using Chinese herbs.
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 13, 2010, at 10:21:34
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on April 12, 2010, at 2:34:15
Thank you for the information.
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 13, 2010, at 10:37:10
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on April 12, 2010, at 2:34:15
After about two weeks on ginger, I feel like it causes too many mood changes and is probably best used off and on. As far as licorice root is concerned, I find that it helps me to sleep at night, but I haven't found any valid research on it for insomnia. Other herbs may work better for this purpose, but I'll say a small dose of licorice does help me to relax. I can't take more than 1/2 of a 450mg capsule, or else I tend to feel worse rather than better. So I can't say for sure that it helps with insomnia, but I think it's relaxing effect may help to ease you into sleep.
Posted by Hombre on April 13, 2010, at 22:32:55
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Lao Tzu on April 13, 2010, at 10:37:10
BTW I wasn't trying to be preachy. I just hope that people can get the best benefit from Chinese herbal medicine. By all means try them out and see how they work. That's what's great about them, they are relatively safe in moderation.
One thing you can try is a premade Chinese formula in the form of tea pills. Min Shan is a good brand, but watch out for counterfeits. You might need to read up a bit on Chinese medical theory, but they are cheap and I have found them to be effective in the past. It's the diagnosis that's the hard part.
Posted by nolvas on April 14, 2010, at 4:19:48
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on April 13, 2010, at 22:32:55
I keep meaning to try the formulas listed here >
http://panicanddepression.blogspot.com/2007/07/can-700-year-old-chinese-medicine-help.html
The problem is choosing the pills, they seem to vary in their contents between online stores and to be honest you really don't know what you're getting or the quality.
"When used as an adjunct to carbamazepine (carbamazepine is an anticonvulsant and mood stabilizing drug, used primarily in the treatment of epilepsy and bipolar disorder. It is also used to treat schizophrenia and trigeminal neuralgia) in patients with bipolar disorders, the Kamo-shoyo-san combo treatment resulted in significantly greater clinical response rate in depressed patients. Kamo-shoy-san has proved to provide additive beneficial effects in bipolar patients, particularly for those in the depressive phase."
TCM has been used for thousands of years, which is why I am angry at the arrogance of the orthodox community which try and get herbs and other plant based medicines banned, usually on precarious evidence. Many pharmaceuticals are based on plant compounds. Drug treatment for mental health issues only really started in the 1950s.
Posted by Hombre on April 14, 2010, at 8:31:29
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by nolvas on April 14, 2010, at 4:19:48
I wonder why they only list the name of that formula in Japanese. I suppose one could compare the ingredients to that of a prepared patent medicine. Plum Flower and Min Shan are brands I've used, but never for depression.
The problem is that herbal formulas are often custom made to match your particular energetic profile. They may not necessarily just treat symptoms like western medicine. They attempt to balance the relationship between the organ systems, and each person will have his or her own unique imbalance.
If you need to find a TCM doctor in your area, try contacting a local Kung Fu school or massage therapist.
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 14, 2010, at 10:36:42
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on April 14, 2010, at 8:31:29
The problem is I take a lot of strong psychotropic medicine. I'm cautious as to the kinds of herbs I try. I have gained great relief from vitamins and minerals, but I'm always looking for greater methods. The herbs they sell at the vitamin stores are limited. They don't always carry the diverse range of Chinese herbs. I have found some good information online, but you're right, you need a formula that suits the individual, and I think the best way is to work with someone who is experienced rather than nilly willy try herbal formulas on your own. Aruyvedic medicine is also interesting to me. I'm sure there are some interesting herbs out there that would further help me with depression, but as I said, I am very cautious. I have used panax ginseng in the past with some good results, but I never stayed the course with it because I thought it wasn't helping me. But now I've learned that there are so many herbs that affect different organ systems and you still might not be treating the right organs because you are not taking the right formula. The best results so far have been with vitamins, minerals, and fatty acids. Many years ago, I had success with St. John's Wort and Kava Kava, but like other herbs, these two are very commercial. They helped with my depression and anxiety, but they weren't sufficient enough. I really believe nutritional deficiencies are at the core of many depressive symptoms. However, I do believe in herbs as well. You just have to stay the course and be patient.
Posted by Hombre on May 6, 2010, at 23:33:37
In reply to Chinese herbs, posted by Lao Tzu on April 10, 2010, at 9:24:40
What's interesting is that in Chinese medicine, depression is associated with "phlegm" rising to the head causing a fuzzy, muddled mind. This is the symbolic imagery at least, the actual phenomenon is probably a combination of things. But certain antidepressants and anytipsychotics are antihistamines. Also, niacin causes a release of histamine into the bloodstream resulting in a flush. Niacin interacts strongly with pysche meds, probably due to it's relationship to tryptophan (60 units of tryptophan make 1 unit of niacin, so if niacin is plentiful, tryptophan is spared and may be more available for serotonin synthesis). Some work has been done to see if schizophrenics have a non-standard flushing reaction to high dose niacin.
The "liver" is associated with the free flow and movement of energy in the body. A stagnation in this organ system (not necessarily the anatomical liver) may cause or be the result of frustration, anger, depression. A well known herbal formula called Xiao Yao Pian/xiao yao wan, often translated as "Free and Easy Wanderer" is used to ease the discomfort caused by liver stagnation. It is also indicated for PMS symptoms that lead to depression and anger. This formula is available in the form of teapills by several manufacturers such as Min Shan and Plumflower. I do not know how they interact with psyche meds.
Another though is that Chinese medicine could be used to treat some of the side-effects of treatment, such as insomnia, sweating, and constipation. I sometimes sweat a lot at night due to the Effexor. While western medicine probably doesn't have a good explanation for this (my doc has been mum), this is the sort of condition that is often well described via Chinese medical theory. I may look into trying some over the counter formulas (I'm currently in Asia) to see if they can help with the sweating.
Here's a look to a very well-made site with lots of good info on Chinese medicine:
http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/exam/internal_night_sweats.html
Posted by janejane on May 7, 2010, at 12:16:11
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on May 6, 2010, at 23:33:37
Thanks for the that informative post, Hombre. Do you happen to have any more info on or experience with Xiao Yao Pian? Does it work for plain old unipolar depression in addition to PMS?
Posted by Hombre on May 8, 2010, at 1:56:35
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs » Hombre, posted by janejane on May 7, 2010, at 12:16:11
> Thanks for the that informative post, Hombre. Do you happen to have any more info on or experience with Xiao Yao Pian? Does it work for plain old unipolar depression in addition to PMS?
I have not personally taken Xiao Yao Pian. I was going to get it for my girlfriend since she was suffering from severe anxiety, depression, and almost paranoid symptoms when she was fatigued and under stress (esp. the week before her period). She ended up responding well to nightly magnesium, B6 and zinc.
Back in the states I had a Chinese doctor trained in mainland China. He had several years of western medical training and worked and taught at a hospital. In Taiwan, the hospitals had a Chinese medical division and the doctors could order regular tests like blood work. I think the key would be to find a Chinese doctor who has received the more rigorous training required in China or Taiwan. They would have more training in drug/herb interactions and would be familiar with western and eastern medicine practiced side-by-side. While there are undoubtedly some talented practitioners of traditional chinese medicine in the US, the training is not as rigorous. Even worse, MDs can practice acupuncture with minimal training. But the herbal medicine is where it's at as far as I'm concerned. Like a good chef, the experience herbalist can work with traditional formulas and adjust as needed to your own "taste". It's a damn shame that in the US, western medicine has an almost adversarial stance toward any sort of complementary or alternative treatment. It seems like the only studies done are to take Chinese medical treatments out of context and try to disprove them. It's like saying that a size 8 shoes doesn't fit everyone (western paradigm). The chinese doctor measures your foot and builds a shoe for you. End rant! Sorry!
Here is what the cached version of a page at acupuncture.com says:
"In Traditional Chinese Medicine, Xiao Yao Wan is believed to ease symptoms of stress. It also helps treat menstrual disorders, such as irregular menses, PMS and late menses. It can soothe symptoms (which are aggravated by stress or emotional upset) including irritability, mood swings, breast tenderness, depression, tension and stiffness in neck and shoulders, tension headaches, frequent sighing and water retention. This formula can also be used to treat general stress and chronic hepatitis."
This page is also quite informative:
http://www.heavenearthchineseherbs.com/plum-flower-free-and-easy-wanderer-teapills-p-32.html
"The Liver and Spleen Organ Systems can be associated with a plethora of disharmonies such as: emotional outburst or anxiety, cold hands/feet, PMS, migraines, weak digestion/bloating, menstrual irregularities, stomach/back/rib pain [from Blood/Liver stagnation], loss of appetite, low energy, eye problems, irregular elimination, decreased flexibility, headaches and neck and back tension just to list a few. "
Posted by janejane on May 10, 2010, at 11:58:19
In reply to Re: Chinese herbs, posted by Hombre on May 8, 2010, at 1:56:35
Hombre, I recently saw an integrative family doc who suggested I try TCM (or naturopathy) since nothing else seems to be working. I sort of brushed it off, but you've now piqued my interest. If you don't mind, would you contact me via babblemail? I have a few more questions I'd like to ask you. (Just click on my name at the top of the post and you should go to a form.) I think I'd like to look for an experienced practitioner instead of just ordering pills. Thanks!
Posted by janejane on May 10, 2010, at 12:42:49
In reply to Chinese herbs, posted by Lao Tzu on April 10, 2010, at 9:24:40
Lao Tzu, thanks for starting this thread. I think I'm actually becoming hopeful about trying something new. This is after feeling quite discouraged for some time, now.
While doing some googling on the subject, I found this PDF on Chinese herbs and depression. Pretty interesting!
Posted by janejane on June 4, 2010, at 11:32:03
In reply to Chinese herbs, posted by Lao Tzu on April 10, 2010, at 9:24:40
http://www.bluepoppy.com/cfwebstorefb/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=175
Looks like there's support for some of the formulas given in the above link on TCM formulas for depression.
Posted by Hombre on June 7, 2010, at 6:53:40
In reply to Chinese Medicine + Psychiatry - Clinical Studies, posted by janejane on June 4, 2010, at 11:32:03
A nice summary of the different symptoms of depression and the various patterns of imbalance that may cause them. There is a nice list of herbal formulas at the end:
http://www.khalsamedicine.com/pdf/depression.pdf
Get past the jargon and you will find much more certainty about what can cause certain clusters of symptoms and how to go about rectifying the imbalances that cause them. It's not like we truly understand what's going on with meds. We just get used to the jargon and start shooting in the dark along with our doctors.
Posted by janejane on June 7, 2010, at 13:01:08
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine + Psychiatry - Clinical Studies, posted by Hombre on June 7, 2010, at 6:53:40
I like the charts! Thanks!
Do you have more like this to share?
Posted by Hombre on June 9, 2010, at 3:48:18
In reply to TCM » Hombre, posted by janejane on June 7, 2010, at 13:01:08
What's cool about TCM is that the emotions and the material aspect of the body, namely the organs (remember, think functional systems that may include from cellular to inter-organ relationships), are intimately connected. Pathology in an organ system will have physical as well as emotional symptoms. The healthy functioning of an organ system is related to a positive type of emotion or mental function such as the ability to plan and carry out actions with resoluteness (liver). The pathology of said organ system would result in anger or over-controlling behavior. Since all the organ systems are interrelated, one system may be hurting another symptom causing symptoms. That's where it takes a skillful practitioner to look at the big picture and see where the problems are.
This is a pretty good link talking about the 7 emotions and how problems may come about:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/traditional-chinese-medicine-causes-of-illness6.htm
I typed out a pretty good description of the Kidneys in the thread Whitmore posted about cortisome/ACTH. Kidneys are usually implicated if there is fatigue, anxiety, and insomnia. Kidneys (including adrenal and endocrine function) are at the root of one's overall health. I'm taking a Kidney Yang tonic (I tend towards hypo- type symptoms) and the result is stronger will power and decrease in water retention and weight gain that I get from the meds.
This is the end of the thread.
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