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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cache-monkey on February 6, 2008, at 1:07:37
Hi all,
As mentioned in a previous post, I have reason to believe that I have a seriously over-active immune system. These are the reasons:
(A) I have on-going low- to medium-grade pain with occasional severe flares that are accompanied by pain/swelling in lymph nodes;
(B) I almost never actually get sick -- two colds in the last 4 years despite chronic lack of sleep; and maybe most tellingly
(C) I have had allergic or immunologically-mediated reactions to 7 out of the last 10 medications I have tried. These reactions almost always involve irritation of the mucous membranes (ENT, urethra, anus) and bladder. For some reason these are associated with excessively foamy uring that isn't protinurea -- a nephrologist found no abnormalities. (One of the reactions was extreme pain in the lymph system instead.)So, I'm wondering if there are any supplements that either supress immune reactions or modulate the immune system away from extremes. So far I've come up with:
* Tryptophan - has a metabolite that seems to have potential damp down MS reactions and other autoimmune conditions
* Colostrum - might be an immune down-regulator; I'm still researching
* L-carnosine - seems to be either an immunostimulant or an immunomodulator depending on the source; still researching.If you have any input I'd be most appreciative.
Thanks,
cache-monkey
Posted by bleauberry on February 6, 2008, at 19:04:57
In reply to Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by cache-monkey on February 6, 2008, at 1:07:37
Excellent question. I wish I knew the answer. I am kind of in the same boat as you. I've done lots of reading and research and am still confused. It is complicated. Basically though these are some things I've found out.
Heavy metal burden from lead, mercury, or arsenic can have paradoxical effects on the immune system...sometimes turning the volume down and sometimes turning it up. It isn't the metals themselves, but rather their effects on other enzymes, receptors, and glands. If you have or ever had amalgam fillings, those are huge red flags to be taken very seriously.
Leaky gut syndrome. Caused by candida overgrowth, parasites, food intolerances, or heavy metal burden. Tiny pieces of anything you ingest can get through small holes in the intestines that are not supposed to be there. The body sees this stuff in the bloodstream as foreign invaders and turns the immune system volume way up. Major cause of chemical sensitivity, food sensitivity, depression, brain fog.
Liver phase I too fast compared to liver phase II. Lots of unexcreted toxins re-enter the bloodstream.
Since your symptoms are extremely common, almost universal, among mercury/lead toxic people, I've learned a lot at frequent-dose-chelation group and adult-metal-chelation group at Yahoo. I am mercury and lead toxic. My mercury is from amalgams that are now gone, but mercury stays for life unless it is artificially chelated out.
Things people have found helpful:
Dr Clarkia tincture to kill parasites. Lab tests are usually inconclusive or incomplete and only show what is in the stool but not in the blood or organs. The tincture contains 3 herbs that are deadly to parasites throughout the body. One of the herbs is beneficial for healing leaky gut.
Oil of oregano. Kills bacteria, viruses, fungus including candida. Another one is grapefruit seed extract. Oil of oregano is a mysterious one. Some people have discovered their sensitivities just disappeared with it, even though it is supposedly an immune system enhancer. Maybe by killing so many bad things it allows the immune system to calm down.
Digestive enzymes, unbuffered vitamin C, and sometimes HCL. These are to fully digest everything you ingest before it has a chance to enter the bloodstream undigested.
Food intolerance lab test. About $300-$400. A food you are sensitive to will send the immune system into high gear. It is usually something you eat commonly and have no idea it is doing you any harm. The best treatment is to avoid the offending foods and beef up the digestive enzymes.
Probiotics. Filling the gut with good bacteria helps in a wide variety of things.
Liver detox lab test. Costly. The liver can be manipulated with simple things such as grapefruit juice, lechithin, niacinamide, pomegranite juice, niacin. Also, with knowledge of exactly what your liver is doing, you can predict in advance what a particular drug will do to it...slow it down, speed it up, and in doing so how that would affect your symptoms.
You and I both want some herb or supplement we can take that will just balance out the immune system and make it normal. I don't know such a substance. I guess maybe some naturopaths would say the general tonics such ginsengs, ashwagandha, reishi mushroom, and such might do that. I don't know. I had bad reations to all of those.
Sorry. Wish I had something simple and straight forward to tell you. All I know is that if your immune system is in high gear, it is so for a reason. It is under assault from something...with parasites, metals, undigested foods, or food intolerances being tops on the list of culprits.
Posted by bleauberry on February 6, 2008, at 19:12:37
In reply to Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by cache-monkey on February 6, 2008, at 1:07:37
I forgot to mention something interesting. You mentioned tryptophan.
I have had ongoing carbuncles (clusters of deep boils that never actually mature or open up) on my buttocks for years. They have been unresponsive to topical steroids, and only minimally responsive to prescription topical antibiotics or strong herbal ointments. Due to other fears I have avoided systemic antibiotics. I haven't had a cold or flu in so many years I can't remember. But the boils stay. Weird. My immune system seems really strong in one way but not another.
A few months ago I tried 5htp for depression. I worked up to 25mg per evening. Though I slept great it was not what I was looking for in terms of depression. BUT...something unusual and unexpected happened...those boils almost completely vanished! So maybe there is something to your tryptophan theory, and maybe it also goes for 5htp. Actually now that I think about it, lexapro made me much more depressed, but it also shrank those boils very rapidly. Makes me wonder what role serotonin plays besides in the brain.
Posted by TenMan on February 7, 2008, at 8:43:46
In reply to Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by cache-monkey on February 6, 2008, at 1:07:37
Yes, it is likely that most people here favor a th1 (intracellular) over a th2 (humoral) immune response. I never get sick and have a history of auto-immune disease in my family but no cancer. I often feel run down and tired and get very sore from exercise. There are several different herbs, vitamins and macronutrients which are helpful for inflammation due to th1 dominant immune response.
Fish Oil
Vitamin D
St. Johns Wort
Forskolin
TurmericGood luck.
Posted by toduar on February 7, 2008, at 14:22:06
In reply to Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by cache-monkey on February 6, 2008, at 1:07:37
I think i've read that Licorice Root has some immune system normalizing properties. You may want to research it.
Posted by Sigismund on February 7, 2008, at 17:03:25
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by bleauberry on February 6, 2008, at 19:12:37
There are these T fractions that have something to do with immunity.
An imbalance between them is said to exacerbate allergic symptoms and increase IgE.Perilla seed (not oil) is said to be useful.
And reishi mushroom too.
There are naturopaths who use astragalus, of all things, to help the immune system with allergies. I've never grasped the rationale for that.
Posted by cache-monkey on February 14, 2008, at 3:55:10
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down? » cache-monkey, posted by bleauberry on February 6, 2008, at 19:04:57
Hi bleauberry,
Thanks for the info. I've been absorbing it slowly. I've thought about mercury toxicity, as I have about 12 molar amalgams.
But, I really don't know what to believe about it. First, why would the symptoms only show up 15 years later? Second, the medical establishment really seems to pooh-pooh it. On the other hand there is all this anecdotal evidence to the contrary. But then there there don't seem to be any scientifically valid tests for mercury toxicity.
So it would be a pretty sizeable chunk of money to spend for the 12 replacements based on a hunch...
I'm wondering, though, can chelation or other mercury-mitigating therapies be done with fillings still in place?
Thanks,
cache-monkey
Posted by cache-monkey on February 14, 2008, at 4:00:08
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by TenMan on February 7, 2008, at 8:43:46
<< Yes, it is likely that most people here favor a th1 (intracellular) over a th2 (humoral) immune response. >>
Thanks for the input. I haven't heard of this distinction before and I'll have to look into it a bit.
<<I never get sick>> ... << I often feel run down and tired and get very sore from exercise.>>
Check and check (although I'm also incredibly anxious which works against the tiredness sometimes).<< There are several different herbs, vitamins and macronutrients which are helpful for inflammation due to th1 dominant immune response. >>
> Fish Oil
* I've tried it for a few days at a time, but it seems to end up really irritating my bladder.
> St. Johns Wort
* I'm wondering if you could provide links for this. I've searched a little for SJW and the immune system but haven't come up with squat.> Vitamin D
> Forskolin
> Turmeric
I'll have to look into these a bit more. Any interactions to be concerned with?Thanks again,
cache-monkey
Posted by cache-monkey on February 14, 2008, at 4:01:15
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by toduar on February 7, 2008, at 14:22:06
Thanks for the input. I'll add this to the list to look into. If you happen to remember where you saw this, please pass it along.
> I think i've read that Licorice Root has some immune system normalizing properties. You may want to research it.
Posted by TenMan on February 14, 2008, at 12:25:46
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down? » TenMan, posted by cache-monkey on February 14, 2008, at 4:00:08
I cannot fathom why fish oil would irritate your bladder. Very strange. Was it a quality brand? I take Carlson's Liquid and highly recommend it as an affordable and very high quality source of O-3 fats.
Here is a couple studies on SJW's anti-inflammatory activities. There are quite a few on PubMed.
"The effect of Hyp was thus evaluated on an animal model of experimental allergic encephalomyelitis (EAE), a classic, Th1-mediated autoimmune disease of the CNS, and we observed that Hyp attenuates the severity of the disease symptoms significantly. "
"Interestingly, cytokine-induced activations of the signal-transducer-and-activator-of-transcription-1 (STAT-1) and the nuclear-factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB) were both down-regulated by SJW extract"
There is no problem combining any of the substances I listed in my earlier post. As always, start with a low dose and cautiously work your way up.
Posted by cache-monkey on February 17, 2008, at 3:53:36
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by TenMan on February 7, 2008, at 8:43:46
Hi,
I'm going to look into this some more, but it's actually somewhat confusing as to Th1 dominance vs. Th2 dominance.
From what I've been reading, the multiple allergic reactions to meds that I've had might be indicative of Th2 dominance, which might also be related to systemic autoimmune responses.
I'm going to (clearly) have to look into this some more. Thanks for pointing me toward this line of thought.
If you want to share any additional info on this, I would be much obliged.
Best,
cache-monkey> Yes, it is likely that most people here favor a th1 (intracellular) over a th2 (humoral) immune response. I never get sick and have a history of auto-immune disease in my family but no cancer. I often feel run down and tired and get very sore from exercise. There are several different herbs, vitamins and macronutrients which are helpful for inflammation due to th1 dominant immune response.
>
Posted by bleauberry on February 17, 2008, at 18:52:05
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down? » bleauberry, posted by cache-monkey on February 14, 2008, at 3:55:10
12 molar amalgams? I don't think you need any tests. Here are some to consider though. Mercury is hard to test because it so illusively hides deep in cells, and is also tightly grabbed by bacteria and things like Lyme, all of which thrive on it. Get a hair sample from Doctor's Data. Go to the frequent-dose-chelation group at Yahoo to have it analyses. Mercury leaves telltale patterns that are distinct. A urine porphyrin test, FDA approved for toxicity, is diagnostic of mercury damage. Dentists who specialize in removing amalgams safely can give you a saliva test...one before chewing gum, and one after chewing gum. These tests show the mercury in your saliva from the fillings and the significant rise after chewing.
You ask good questions. Common questions. Too lengthy to answer here. There are solid answers to all of them. They are in the book Amalgam Illness. All about the politics, the controversies, why the medical world is not up to speed, why it takes years or decades for symptoms to show up, and lots of other things you haven't even thought to question yet.
If you are like me, you will poo-poo the idea, hold onto some skepticism and doubt, forget about it because it is too expensive, and then in a year or two realize you are just getting sicker and sicker with new weird things piling up on top of the old things which are also worse then they were a year ago. Bad mistake I made, but it is a common one.
>
> Thanks for the info. I've been absorbing it slowly. I've thought about mercury toxicity, as I have about 12 molar amalgams.
>
> But, I really don't know what to believe about it. First, why would the symptoms only show up 15 years later? Second, the medical establishment really seems to pooh-pooh it. On the other hand there is all this anecdotal evidence to the contrary. But then there there don't seem to be any scientifically valid tests for mercury toxicity.
>
> So it would be a pretty sizeable chunk of money to spend for the 12 replacements based on a hunch...
>
> I'm wondering, though, can chelation or other mercury-mitigating therapies be done with fillings still in place?
>
> Thanks,
> cache-monkey
Posted by cache-monkey on February 18, 2008, at 19:24:41
In reply to Re: Supplements that calm the immune system down?, posted by bleauberry on February 17, 2008, at 18:52:05
<< 12 molar amalgams? I don't think you need any tests. Here are some to consider though. >>
Actually, 9 now that I look, but that's missing your point. Not needing any tests still assumes that there is a definitive causal link from amalgams to mercury intake/blood levels. In terms of the link from mercury ingestion to symptoms, I think it's a explanation for my med intolerance that's worth exploring, particularly since Hg leads to Th2 dominance.
But, the connection between amalgams to mercury accumulation seems to be very individual specific. So how do I know if I'm one of the people who accumulates?
That's why I'm interested in tests.
<< Get a hair sample from Doctor's Data. Go to the frequent-dose-chelation group at Yahoo to have it analyses. Mercury leaves telltale patterns that are distinct. >>
I've ordered this.<< A urine porphyrin test, FDA approved for toxicity, is diagnostic of mercury damage. >>
This is something I would like to bring up with my holistic doc, who also recommended a hair test for mercury. However, I can't seem to find anything about this outside of this one lab in France that does them. Is it common to just through the French lab?<< Dentists who specialize in removing amalgams safely can give you a saliva test...one before chewing gum, and one after chewing gum. These tests show the mercury in your saliva from the fillings and the significant rise after chewing. >>
I frankly don't trust this one. I spend so little of my time chewing that I think the results would be pretty difficult to interpret.
<< You ask good questions. Common questions. Too lengthy to answer here. There are solid answers to all of them. They are in the book Amalgam Illness. All about the politics, the controversies, why the medical world is not up to speed, why it takes years or decades for symptoms to show up, and lots of other things you haven't even thought to question yet. >>
I've ordered the book, but I doubt it will give a balanced viewpoint on the matter. Are there any truly neutral sites that give both sides argument?Anyway, the aethetic appeal might be partial justification for the cost of getting some of the amalgams replaced over time. But I'll have to think about this a bit more before going whole-hog.
Thanks,
cache-monkey
Posted by bleauberry on February 18, 2008, at 20:52:25
In reply to Mercury » bleauberry, posted by cache-monkey on February 18, 2008, at 19:24:41
There is actually a very simple test you could do to find out if you have too much mercury. Take a chelator and see if you have side effects. If yes, you are toxic. If no, you are probably not.
Some people chelate with a simple food...cilantro. A typical dose, according to people at Yahoo chelation forums that have done it, is to pack 1/2 cup fresh cilantro, blend into some water and swallow once a day for 3 days, or stop if bad side effects.
Now, if someone is not mercury toxic, this will just be a healthy green drink. Nothing will happen. But if they are mercury toxic, that cilantro is going to remove mercury from the brain and tissues. Common side effects on a first round of chelation are unusual fatigue, changes in mood such as fearfullness, over-sensitivity, anxiety, nervousness, brain fog, confusion, and either too sleepy or wicked insomnia. Any way you look at it, no matter what the side effects a person gets are, if there is a mercury coming out, there are side effects that are easily distinguished from anything else the person normally feels in day to day life.
I mention cilantro because some people who use it still have their amalgams in place. It apparently does not pull the mercury out of the amalgams. The problem is whether someone took enough or not, and whether the particular batch from the store had enough of the mysterious ingredient that does the work. Cilantro capsules are available, but people say fresh cilantro works much better.
Another option would be to spend about $30 online at Vitamin Research to order some DMSA 25mg capsules. Take one capsule every four hours for 3 days, or stop if side effects are bad. A person who is not toxic will get no side effects. A person who is toxic will get classic mercury side effects. DMSA typically is free of side effects, especially at a ridiculous low dose of 25mg, unless it is pulling out mercury and lead. It's not the DMSA that causes side effects, but the metals being pulled out of tissues. People who chelate with DMSA know when they are getting cleaner, because they are able to take larger and larger doses, their side effects are diminished to almost nothing, and they are feeling a ton better and younger.
With either cilantro or DMSA, side effects will pretty much be gone in about 24 to 48 hours after the last dose of the trial or round.
If zero side effects, you are probably not accumulating mercury. In that case you might want to try a larger dose to be sure. If you do get side effects, that is all the confirmation you need. And the most you'll have to spend is a couple twenty dollar bills at most.
How much mercury accumulation that occurs, and how bad symptoms are, if any, is determined by genetics. It is all interlinked with immune system, adrenal glands, natural glutathione circuits, and stuff like that.
I do not remember the link, but if you do a google search on something like "amalgam video" or "mercury vapor video" or some combination of those words, you will find a video online that shows the mercury vapor rising off of an extracted tooth that has an amalgam. It shows the dramatic difference before and after rubbing the tooth with a pencil erasor that simulates chewing.
Keep in mind that mercury invades every organ, gland, and enzyme in the entire body. It is the second most toxic substance on the planet. Miniscule amounts can do a great deal of damage. The most commom signs of mercury damage are in the immune system symptoms, psychiatric symptoms, adrenal or thyroid symptoms, and intestinal symptoms. Mercury can cause practically any disease you can think of, as it spares no part of the body and has no mercy. It is a very deceptive slow sneaky killer. Hundreds of thousands of people are being medicated, but not cured, for many different diseases, when they are in fact toxic from mercury. I know a lady personally who was diagnosed with MS, who later chelated and was totally cured in less than 2 years.
Only a few doctors are well trained in this area. For the most part, thousands of us must rely on ourselves to save our own lives and to heal ourselves. Thousands already have. Tesitmonies abound. Behind the scenes there are lots of meetings, protests, and lawsuits involved with the FDA on this topic. The ADA has even finally admitted that yes mercury does get into the body from amalgams, but that it is not enough to be a health problem. Cough.
This is the end of the thread.
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