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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2007, at 20:00:49
Lar,
How are you doing my friend?
Do you have time to look at a a few paragraphs and give me your assessment of their validity?
Please, read the section titled "Methylation" in the following article, and tell me your assessment of the author's claim that undermethylators should minimize their intake of folate.
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm#Met
Lar, beware. It is a Pfeiffer Treatment Center article. I do not know how you feel about the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, but if the typos in the article are any indication of the quality of their "research", then I find it hard to put much stock in their "science".
But, on the other hand, perhaps their findings are completely correct, and should be taken very seriously.
Whadda ya think, Lar? Should undermethylators avoid folate?
I found other sections of the article to be worth the read, but you only have so many hours in your day and, therefore, I can't be asking you to review the entire article.
Thank you VERY much for your time. :-)
You da man, Lar. You da man.
-- Ron
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
1125 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 31, 2007, at 8:28:07
In reply to Lar, Undermethylators and Folate, posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2007, at 20:00:49
> Lar,
Ron! Long time no see, around these parts. Is Bob's block finally over?
> How are you doing my friend?
Not so good. Thanks for asking. This pain thingie is eroding my cognitive function and resiliency. I feel very old. And just a few weeks ago my computer crashed and I lost everything. If I ever meet Bill Gates in person, I'm likely to kick him in the cajones.
> Do you have time to look at a a few paragraphs and give me your assessment of their validity?
>
> Please, read the section titled "Methylation" in the following article, and tell me your assessment of the author's claim that undermethylators should minimize their intake of folate.
>
> http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm#Met
>
> Lar, beware. It is a Pfeiffer Treatment Center article. I do not know how you feel about the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, but if the typos in the article are any indication of the quality of their "research", then I find it hard to put much stock in their "science".It may be called Pfeiffer, but it's Walsh running it. And Walsh ain't no Pfeiffer.
Given their diagnostic categorizations, I'm strongly undermethylated and overmethylated at the same time. It's hard to overcome my subjective bias in this instance, but it still informs me that what they say cannot hold true. And, if you read the article with a cynical eye, you'll note that they incorporate explanations for why their treatment might not work. Which it often doesn't.
With respect to folate, I cannot recommend that anyone avoid folate intake. Of all the B-vitamins, this is the one the vast majority are deficient in. Off the top of my head, it's more than 90% of Americans.
In any case, you can't use statistics to guide treatment. You have to do the experiment(s).
> But, on the other hand, perhaps their findings are completely correct, and should be taken very seriously.
Thought provoking is one thing. Experiment provoking is another.
> Whadda ya think, Lar? Should undermethylators avoid folate?
In a word, no. IMPNSHO.
> I found other sections of the article to be worth the read, but you only have so many hours in your day and, therefore, I can't be asking you to review the entire article.
>
> Thank you VERY much for your time. :-)You're welcome, dude. And welcome back.
> You da man, Lar. You da man.
>
> -- RonWell, if I'm da man, then mankind ain't looking so good. But thanks.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on July 31, 2007, at 10:31:49
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on July 31, 2007, at 8:28:07
Lar,
Thank you very much for having a look-see at these paragraphs. Thanks Lar.
> Ron! Long time no see, around these parts.Nice to talk to ya.
> Is Bob's block finally over?
Yep. My two year protest is over.
> Not so good. Thanks for asking. This pain thingie is eroding my cognitive function and resiliency. I feel very old.Life has dealt you a difficult hand, or should I say a difficult elbow. I'm very sorry that this has happened to you, Lar. I'm sorry.
> And just a few weeks ago my computer crashed and I lost everything. If I ever meet Bill Gates in person, I'm likely to kick him in the cajones.
Not good. You had some great bookmarked favorites, and those alone would be a hugh loss. Any back-ups?
> It may be called Pfeiffer, but it's Walsh running it. And Walsh ain't no Pfeiffer.
> Given their diagnostic categorizations, I'm strongly undermethylated and overmethylated at the same time. It's hard to overcome my subjective bias in this instance, but it still informs me that what they say cannot hold true. And, if you read the article with a cynical eye, you'll note that they incorporate explanations for why their treatment might not work. Which it often doesn't.
> With respect to folate, I cannot recommend that anyone avoid folate intake. Of all the B-vitamins, this is the one the vast majority are deficient in. Off the top of my head, it's more than 90% of Americans.
> In any case, you can't use statistics to guide treatment. You have to do the experiment(s).In the end, it always comes down to trial-and-error; lab rats that use guided discovery to make best guesses of what have the best chances of working.
> > Whadda ya think, Lar? Should undermethylators avoid folate?> In a word, no. IMPNSHO.
> Well, if I'm da man, then mankind ain't looking so good. But thanks.The fact that you are willing to answer other's questions, and to be concerned for the well being of others, inspite of your pain, make you all the more "Da Man".
Thank you again, Lar.
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on July 31, 2007, at 21:42:42
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate, posted by Ron Hill on July 31, 2007, at 10:31:49
Ron you had a two year block?????I never heard of one that long. I knew I knew your name. I think I've been here three years well since cymbalta came out . I know as my husband found this site when cymbalta came out and Scott was trying it. I'm glad you're back too.I must google and see what happened I'm so nosey. Love Jan/Phillipa
Posted by teejay on July 31, 2007, at 22:44:41
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Ron Hill, posted by Phillipa on July 31, 2007, at 21:42:42
Read many of your posts over time when I've been googling various herbs and anxiety treatments.
Dunno what your beef was with Bob, but great to see you around! :-)
TJ (CFS, depression ahd anxiety sufferer and general screw up!)
Posted by Ron Hill on August 1, 2007, at 4:19:20
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Ron Hill, posted by Phillipa on July 31, 2007, at 21:42:42
> I'm glad you're back too.
Thanks, Jan. Nice to talk to you.
> I must google and see what happened I'm so nosey.
I'll save you the time to look it up:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050716/msgs/534631.html
But, that's a long time ago, and things appear to have changed for the better with regard to the issue. In any case, it is a new day and all is good.
-- Ron
Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling, and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
1125 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
Posted by Ron Hill on August 1, 2007, at 4:29:48
In reply to Nice to see you Ron........., posted by teejay on July 31, 2007, at 22:44:41
> Read many of your posts over time when I've been googling various herbs and anxiety treatments.
It's kinda scarey the amount of posts from this site that Google pulls up, isn't it?
> TJ (CFS, depression ahd anxiety sufferer and general screw up!)
From the posts of yours that I've read over the years, I know for fact that the last dx in your list is a misdiagnosis.
Good to talk to ya teejay, and thanks for the welcome back!
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on August 1, 2007, at 20:07:11
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on August 1, 2007, at 4:19:20
Ron it goes on forever. Glad things are great now and thanks for the links . Appreciate that. Love Jan
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 7, 2007, at 12:50:11
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on July 31, 2007, at 8:28:07
I am a physician in Dublin and I have found the Pfeiffer theories very useful in helping the mental health of my patients. Last week for example I tested 4 anxious depressed people in whom I suspected Histapenia and the lab tests confirmed the diagnsosis with very low histamine. I find it easy as a rule to distinguish Histadelia from Histapenia but Pyroluria can overlap with Histapenia. As regards folate I have noticed that Histadelia patients` tests routinely show high folate so I do not add folate while I always add it to Histapenia cases-about 1mg a day,together with niacinamide,zinc,B12 and other antioxidants.
Posted by MoparFan91 on August 8, 2007, at 8:54:42
In reply to Lar, Undermethylators and Folate, posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2007, at 20:00:49
Yes, Folic Acid is said to increase depression in histadelics (undermethylators). Reason for this is that it increases histamine levels (reason it's recommended for histapenics), and this, inturn, can block serotonin production. The reason for the high Folate levels in histadelics is a problem in converting it to the active Folinic Acid form, which is required for methylation. I've read that the active Folinic Acid form is fine for undermethylators as it's commonly given to autistics with this condition.
I fit virtually all the symptoms of pyrrole disorder (ultra rapid-cycling bipolar being a hallmark of it), and for histadelia (undermethylation), I fit the second most for that (OCD being a hallmark of it).
I've always thought that the pyrrole disorder was the only one I have, which I was hoping, but I believe I certainly have histadelia (undermethylation) as well in part due to bad reactions I've had to Folic Acid. Additionally, I found that I've had negative reactions to Niacin, protein w/ high amounts of histidine, and also acetylcholine-boosting supplements.
A couple nights ago, I ate 3 eggs as part of my dinner. Eggs (mainly the yolk part) are one of the highest food sources of Folic Acid. Well, not long after that, my felt my mood sink into immense depression, and I started to feel agitated along with it. Before all of this, my mood had been pretty much even. I took Magnesium Glycinate and Taurine, and it the depression went away within about 2 hours.
I took Niacin months back, and I was also pitched into severe depression. I think it cause blood sugar problems, too. I've read of Niacin increasing histamine levels, and therefore, being a methyl-eater. It's one of the main supplements along with Folic Acid recommended for histapenia (overmethylation). Niacinamide caused a big rash.
On the other hand, I get benefits from SAM-e. I seem to be able to sleep more easily on it, and it's easier to let go of OCD stuff. It's quickly given me relief when in severe depressions as well. I use 800mg (400mg Elemental), but 400mg (200mg Elemental) seems to still give results as well. So, I use the lower amount as maintenance.
I started taking it again because I know for sure that I need it since I don't have just the pyrrole disorder alone.
Posted by tealady on August 26, 2007, at 4:56:54
In reply to Re: Nice to see you Ron......... » teejay, posted by Ron Hill on August 1, 2007, at 4:29:48
Nice to see you Ron from me too :)
Glad to see you are still hangin in there, and have been reading from time to time.
You're a better man than me in being able to stay away;-)
Wishing you and yours the best,
Jan
Posted by Optimist on August 28, 2007, at 23:30:16
In reply to Lar, Undermethylators and Folate, posted by Ron Hill on July 30, 2007, at 20:00:49
Folic acid would be a bad idea with undermethylators/histadelics due to it's histamine increasing properties. Whenever I take it my skin gets very itchy. :)
Folic acid tends to reduce homocysteine but also the available pool of methyl groups (SAMe) as well as methionine, which is what you don't want. The only good supplements for histadelics for reducing homocysteine is TMG since it doesn't reduce the total pool of methionine and SAMe.
Folic acid tends to decrease copper levels which histadelics/undermethylators are deficient in. Norepinephrine is the deficient neurotransmitter with histadelics. Copper is involved with the production of the enzyme histamine oxidase, as well as norepinephrine.
Supplements that decrease histamine are primarily calcium, magnesium, copper, vitamin D, DHEA (in men), TMG, and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).
I would not follow Pfeffeirs (sp) recommendations. They are flawed.
Brian
Posted by tealady on August 30, 2007, at 3:26:49
In reply to Re: Lar, Undermethylators and Folate » Ron Hill, posted by MoparFan91 on August 8, 2007, at 8:54:42
My red blood cell folate levels have always been above range. Similarly my mothers, so maybe something genetic here? That is without any supplementation, although during pregnancies I did take folic acid on advice on doctors.
I did go very low on calcium during pregnancies though I assume as I lost a lot of teeth enamel, and tend to since have been lowish on calcium.
Does this fit with not being able to convert to the active form .
I do know that folic acid supplements have never done a thing for me, but SAMe is my favourite as far as feeling good and lifting depression goes.
I have had high histamine levels during my life if hives as a child means anything?Jan
Posted by Ron Hill on August 30, 2007, at 17:06:57
In reply to Re: Nice to see you Ron........., posted by tealady on August 26, 2007, at 4:56:54
> Nice to see you Ron from me too :)
Jan, nice to see you as well! It's fun to be back. Unfortunately, due to my current workload, my posting will be very sporadic for a while.Sorry to take a few days to get back to you.
-- Ron
Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
This is the end of the thread.
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