Psycho-Babble Alternative Thread 744029

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Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:58

I just finished reading "The Search for the
Manchurian Candidate
" by John Marks. I hope
universities are over that kind of "research".
I have just recovered from some unpleasant experiences in my life, and i hope that the lithium has made my present stable state possible. I think I may have been much worse without it.

Nevertheless, I am so tired of the side effects of meds, including my K, which prevents me from drinking even one beer, and the lithium which makes me feel so heavy and always on the look-out for toxicity. I am uncertain after reading about the Orthomolecular site at McGill and a Canadian actress who claims to have recovered from bipolar disorder through that department's help with vitamins and amino acid treatments.

Why just ONE recovery? Why just ONE professor there doing this research? Why hire that professor at all? Why has orthomolecular treatment not overcome the drugs that are necessary but hard to take for these serious disorders? I would love to see the progress and any statistics on this issue.

Of course, I am sceptical because after a 6-month withdrawal from lithium (a counterfeit, botched batch) I became psychotic and suicidal, AND after the K withdrawal I had a seizure/stroke experience.

The truth please!

Squiggles

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by Klavot on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder, posted by Squiggles on March 22, 2007, at 11:06:37

Some people consider orthomolecular medicine to be pseudoscientific. Certainly many of its claims are fanciful. For example, Linus Pauling, the pioneer of orthomolecular medicine, claimed that cancer could be cured by taking huge quantities of vitamin C. Ironically, Pauling himself eventually died of cancer. In more recent times, there are many quacks who seem to dabble with orthomolecular medicine, for example Dr Matthias Rath, a famous AIDS-revisionist who claims that AIDS can be cured with micronutrient supplementation. Rath is qualified as a medical doctor (cardiologist I believe) but he bases his medical philosophy on orthomolecular medicine. Some regard him as nothing but a glorified vitamin salesman. In other words, orthomolecular medicine seems to attract bad company.

Many people mistakenly conclude that orthomolecular medicine must be legitimate because it was pioneered by Linus Pauling, who was a double Nobel laureate no less. I often hear this appeal to authority - "Linus Pauling, two times Nobel laureate, said blah blah blah" - when practitioners of alternative medicine advocate micronutrient supplementation. Of course, Pauling won Nobel prizes for chemistry and peace, never for medicine. So sure, he was a genius scientist, but that doesn't make all his work watertight.

Klavot

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder, posted by Klavot on March 22, 2007, at 12:42:30

Klavot,

Authority goes a long way in many higher establishments. But there must be tests and statistics that eliminate this fallacious respect for vainglorious projects.

So, even if preliminary clinical trials on drugs, nutrients, and minerals are too early to yield valid results, eventually, after some years, it should become obvious that vitamins and amino acids, for example ARE or ARE NOT efficient in *correctly* diagnosed psychoses. I think the major mental illnesses are too hard-wired to confuse with the placebo effect, unlike say, situational anxiety and stress.

So, we should know by now whether bipolar disorder can be cured by vitamin B or amino acids. If someone claims to be able to cure orthomolecularly, then either the subject is not bipolar, or not enough time has elapsed to see the illness recur. This is assuming that we know that vitamin B or amino acid X do not work.

Whether the doctor is a Laureate or an undergraduate chemist, should be irrelevant.

Squiggles

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by TheMeanReds on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder, posted by Squiggles on March 22, 2007, at 11:06:37

With the actress and one doctor endorsing this, it kind of sounds like an info-mercial. A way to get your bucks?

I hope it isnt. Good Luck.

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Squiggles

Posted by Larry Hoover on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder, posted by Squiggles on March 22, 2007, at 13:06:32

> So, even if preliminary clinical trials on drugs, nutrients, and minerals are too early to yield valid results, eventually, after some years, it should become obvious that vitamins and amino acids, for example ARE or ARE NOT efficient in *correctly* diagnosed psychoses. I think the major mental illnesses are too hard-wired to confuse with the placebo effect, unlike say, situational anxiety and stress.
>
> So, we should know by now whether bipolar disorder can be cured by vitamin B or amino acids. If someone claims to be able to cure orthomolecularly, then either the subject is not bipolar, or not enough time has elapsed to see the illness recur. This is assuming that we know that vitamin B or amino acid X do not work.

I disagree with your basic premise. You assume homogeneity of diagnosis can be determined a priori. In fact, the currently observed clinical/statistical failure of any specific intervention to cure all subjects pretty convincingly argues for broad heterogeneity with convergent symptomotology/phenotypy, within any currently defined psychiatric diagnosis.

Let's assume, for argument's sake, that bipolar really exists as five different dysfunctions (genotypy), each expressing in a similar way (phenotypy). However, we cannot yet tell one from the other. We diagnose by symptoms alone. We may have found the perfect treatment for one of the dysfunctions, according to our biochemical investigations, but when we gather a collection of subjects together and blindly treat them, our success falls well short of our expectations, statistically. Yet, for individuals, some are "cured". Others might be helped a bit. And others yet, are cursing the cost/lost time/side effects, absent any benefit.

Some treatments work for some people, but not for others. Orthomolecular treatments do work. But not predictably so. You still have to do the experiments. The only scientific way to demonstrate absence of benefit from orthomolecular treatment is to never try. All the rest is statistics, with all attendent fallacies (type 1/type 2 error, sampling bias, blah blah blah).

In the end, the only thing that matters are the experiments with N=1, i.e. those done on you.

Lar

 

Re: Orthomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2007, at 14:05:53

> > So, even if preliminary clinical trials on drugs, nutrients, and minerals are too early to yield valid results, eventually, after some years, it should become obvious that vitamins and amino acids, for example ARE or ARE NOT efficient in *correctly* diagnosed psychoses. I think the major mental illnesses are too hard-wired to confuse with the placebo effect, unlike say, situational anxiety and stress.
> >
> > So, we should know by now whether bipolar disorder can be cured by vitamin B or amino acids. If someone claims to be able to cure orthomolecularly, then either the subject is not bipolar, or not enough time has elapsed to see the illness recur. This is assuming that we know that vitamin B or amino acid X do not work.
>
> I disagree with your basic premise. You assume homogeneity of diagnosis can be determined a priori.

----I do?:-) Sorry, you are educated in statistics it seems. I am way behind you. I wouldn't say that diagnosis can be made *a priori* unless there is an established medical history of symptomatology, such as in cancer for example. I think medicine is desperately working towards that in mental illness but it has not been exclusively established yet-- just some MRIs that show similarities. The rest is many years of medical history and research. But that is a problem that goes for any treatment program, including orthomolecular.


In fact, the currently observed clinical/statistical failure of any specific intervention to cure all subjects pretty convincingly argues for broad heterogeneity with convergent symptomotology/phenotypy, within any currently defined psychiatric diagnosis.
>
> Let's assume, for argument's sake, that bipolar really exists as five different dysfunctions (genotypy),


----(by dysfunctions i think you mean such things as damage to frontal lobe, euphoria, catatonic depression, uric acid excretion, thyroid disorder, right?)

each expressing in a similar way (phenotypy). However, we cannot yet tell one from the other.

----It look like you're stacking the deck here;

We diagnose by symptoms alone. We may have found the perfect treatment for one of the dysfunctions, according to our biochemical investigations, but when we gather a collection of subjects together and blindly treat them, our success falls well short of our expectations, statistically. Yet, for individuals, some are "cured". Others might be helped a bit. And others yet, are cursing the cost/lost time/side effects, absent any benefit.

----Well, that is the miraculous thing about bipolar disorder, unlike the depressive illnesses-- once you give lithium for example, ALL the diverse symptoms disappear. Infact, it is astounding how lithium targets both the severe depression, and the mania at the same time. It is a magic bullet, and regarding the symptomatology of this illness, by the fruits of the treatment you can know it.


>
> Some treatments work for some people, but not for others. Orthomolecular treatments do work. But not predictably so.


----Then I think it is not science, right;


You still have to do the experiments. The only scientific way to demonstrate absence of benefit from orthomolecular treatment is to never try. All the rest is statistics, with all attendent fallacies (type 1/type 2 error, sampling bias, blah blah blah).

----You could say that about every molecule on the planet given to a bipolar or a depressive. If that is how research is done, we would have an infinite number of possible cures. You have to have a hypothesis, or a model, or bump into a lucky discovery.

Squiggles

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Larry Hoover

Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2007, at 14:05:53

Lar I agree and have found some supplements to be superior to meds. What about Vita C? If I don't take it I bruise and yes I know that long term use can cause it if you stop it.But when on a supplement I believe will help anxiety or something simple like that it will. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2007, at 14:05:53

I agree, Larry.
I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about this subject for a couple of months now.

The appeal of it is obvious. The premise, logical.

It makes sense to optimize nutrition and check for deficits when a person is experiencing any sort of unwellness before loading them up on heavy duty medications.

I have added B-6 and zinc (in safe amounts)and it helps me. In fact after discontinuing the two while leaving everything else the same for about 5 days I just added it back in just today. I felt worse off of it and noticably better on it.

The improvement I experienced when adding B6 and zinc to my supplement regime was unmistakable and sustained. I felt distinctly less well off of it, especially the last couple of days.

I played around with higher doses of V-C. 2-12g and had no ill effects besides gas. One very noticable positive and repeatable effect of 10g V-C was the disappearance of some pretty awful upper airway wheezing. I believe it has some anti-histamine properties so perhaps that is what did it.

I really believe that a large portion of the sustained improvements in my anxiety, fatigue and depression have come from time and nutrition.

I am also grateful for the medications that have enabled me to fuction when my symptoms are at their worse. This is what helped me to survive while I rested, researched and healed.

Peace,
Kaye

 

Give it a whirl...

Posted by med_empowered on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2007, at 14:05:53

I'm personally interested in orthomolecular psychiatry, and have been looking for someone locally. The ideas are pretty sound, I think: vitamins/minerals cal alleviate mental distress, with fewer side effects than psychotropics. Lithium, after all, is a mineral; this is not a concept entirely foreign to psychiatry.

I don't want to play the conspiracy card, but...you can't patent vitamins/minerals, and Big Pharma dictates the direction of a lot of research. To claim otherwise would be naive. So I think part of the problem is that there isn't funding for orthomolecular research, and the psychiatric establishment is too in love with $$$ pharmaceuticals to really think about, say, niacin therapy. Plus, science moves by revolution, not evolution. 40 years ago, psychoanalysis was popular. Now its the bio-bio-biopsychiatric model. In 30 years, it could well turn back to more psychosocial models of distress. Point it, within our current paradigm, I don't think there's a lot of room for vitamin therapy, and there may not be for a while--that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Give it a whirl..., posted by med_empowered on March 23, 2007, at 2:29:41

I think I'll stick with the lithium.

Squiggles

 

Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles

Posted by Larry Hoover on March 25, 2007, at 4:34:59

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 23, 2007, at 7:55:13

> I think I'll stick with the lithium.
>
> Squiggles

You don't have to give up lithium to test orthomolecular approaches, Squig. It's not either/or. Orthomolecular means "the right molecule". Why have you stopped looking for other correct fits with your own biochemistry?

Lar

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2007, at 8:39:30

Experimentation with non-mainstream
medicine is dangerous to your health.
As a project for human guinea pigs it
may be worthwhile for those who volunteer
and the researchers who get results.

Squiggles

 

Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles

Posted by Larry Hoover on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 23, 2007, at 8:44:23

> Experimentation with non-mainstream
> medicine is dangerous to your health.

????

Classic non sequitur. It is equally possible that the failure to do so is dangerous to one's health.

Your use of lithium arises from non-mainstream medicine. Moreover, it is a classic example of orthomolecular medicine, and megadose mineral therapy specifically.

I think I finally figured out why I have such a struggle with you, while in debate. I suspect that you think in terms of black and white, all or nothing. No shades of grey. No conditional arguments/boundary conditions are accepted. Yet, that's about all I consider, there being so few absolutes.

Lar

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2007, at 8:57:21

I'm just scared of the unproven. It took a while to perfect lithium treatment. At the same time I envy those who have a better quality of life by
trying alternatives that work. So, kudos to you
and your cohorts.

Squiggles

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 23, 2007, at 9:33:04

I researched the known margins of safety before my foray into orthomolecular type therapies.

I figured I would try a few things and if I saw any benefit then I would delve a little deeper.

I really didn't get any benefit from niacin at higher doses (didn't hurt either)but even at no more that 100 mg B6 (both forms) and 30-50 zinc I benefitted. Now I will get the urine test for pyroluria. This is where the rubber meets the road. I have an indication that there may be something to this particular theory for me.

I have exposed myself to no danger of any account and have been rewarded by my expirimentation.

Squiggles, you are smart and capable of exploring your options while keeping yourself safe.

I'll tell you what. This endeavor, for me, has proven much more safe and beneficial than say, my decision to experiment with peanut butter brands which resulted in weeks of illness due to salmonella poisoniing.

Compared to the risks I have taken with psychotrophic medications and the side effects they have caused a little self medication with higher than RDA of nutrients seems oh-so-tame and practical.

Take Care,
Kaye

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 14:46:53

What is pylourea? Does a doctor test for that?

Squiggles

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » KayeBaby

Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder, posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 0:36:04

B6 also acts as a mild diuretic had a wise OB-GYN who used it for PMS water retention it works . I think I took 50mg? Love Phillipa

 

Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 23, 2007, at 14:51:48

Here is an explanation.

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/pyroluria.html

The end result of it being over-excretion of zinc and b6.

I do not know of any Dr.'s who test for this disorder except for the orthomolecular medicine practitioners. You can order the test from a few places online for about 40.00 dollars.

My M.D./naturopath was not even familiar with the condition.

Zinc also opposes copper and copper excess is known to cause all sorts of mental and nervous system problems. It is possible that this is why I see benefit from the zinc.

It sure would be nice to know so that I could apply nutrients in a more targeted manner.

It is difficult to find help in this area and it is treated as though it is voodoo or something. nutrition based medicine is legitimate and it seems suspect that it is not being utilized more.

I suspect the reason is that it is just not a huge money maker for the medical industry. I also believe that it is an untapped gold mine and it will soon catch on.

Peace,
Kaye

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 23, 2007, at 14:51:48

Here is a fascinating blog written by a man stricken with schizophrenia and his experience with using the principles of orthomolecular medicine as his method for healing.

This blog is so touching and informative-I cannot recommend it highly enough.

http://experimentofone.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html

 

Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » Phillipa

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Orothomolecular treatment for bipolar disorder » KayeBaby, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2007, at 19:19:28

> B6 also acts as a mild diuretic had a wise OB-GYN who used it for PMS water retention it works . I think I took 50mg? Love Phillipa

Phillipa,
It also gave me back my fun, sweet dreams which had been absent for so long I had forgotten what joy they were!
I also think that the B6 is somewhat energizing.
Peace,
Kaye

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by KayeBaby on March 23, 2007, at 19:36:35

I'll try to keep an open mind on this subject
and read up on it. The broad application of orthomolecular treatments ranging from psyhiatric disturbance to cancer is rather disturbing and smacks of snake-oil panacea. However, i have not seen the statistics, nor read all the literature. I'm willing to follow its development as it seems to have become quite a hot avenue of "research".

Certainly, it has not been recommended to me as a medical alternative to lithium by any of my doctors, though i did have a nagging, disturbing doubt at one point when i was tested for magnesium after K-induced seizure and stroke. I would have thought that hospital care would have been a better option. But i did recover in my own bed after a month of excruciating headache and blood pressure swings, and vertigo, and incontinence. I felt as if i was run over by a truck. It seemed so obvious to me that the convulsions/stroke from withdrawal were the cause, and not a magnesium problem. I may just not understand the test and confuse it with orthomolecular medicine.

Squiggles

 

Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 24, 2007, at 8:18:48

> I'll try to keep an open mind on this subject
> and read up on it. The broad application of orthomolecular treatments ranging from psyhiatric disturbance to cancer is rather disturbing and smacks of snake-oil panacea. However, i have not seen the statistics, nor read all the literature. I'm willing to follow its development as it seems to have become quite a hot avenue of "research".
>
> Certainly, it has not been recommended to me as a medical alternative to lithium by any of my doctors, though i did have a nagging, disturbing doubt at one point when i was tested for magnesium after K-induced seizure and stroke. I would have thought that hospital care would have been a better option. But i did recover in my own bed after a month of excruciating headache and blood pressure swings, and vertigo, and incontinence. I felt as if i was run over by a truck. It seemed so obvious to me that the convulsions/stroke from withdrawal were the cause, and not a magnesium problem. I may just not understand the test and confuse it with orthomolecular medicine.
>
> Squiggles


Squiggles,
The magnesium test that you had isn't really an application of orthomolecular medicine. This is a guess but mineral/electrlyte imbalances or deficiencies are often checked because and imbalance gives rise to many life threatening conditions.

Which, of course, begs the question that if it is accepted that Vitamin/mineral imbalances or deficiencies can have profound negative consequences (such as death) them why should it be such a leap to assume that it could cause more subtle dysfuctions?

My mother-in-law had an episode of acute psychosis in her late 60's. She was admitted and was found to have pernicious anemia (b-12) high copper and a few other imbalances. She was put on a short course of anti-psychotics and given b-12 shots and other corrective supplements and she is now in her mid 80's and well.

She was treated by a garden variety psych. so this must be something that they look for as a matter of course. More likely, she had an older Dr. that attended to first things first.

It might be intersting to look up info on some of the known and mainstream medical accpted disease states produced by nutrient deficiencies and see the wide range of physical AND mental symptoms they present.

Pellegra, Scurvy, Pernicious Anemia, BeriBeri(which I believe means 'I cannot, I cannot' if memory serves me)

Take Care,
kaye


 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by Squiggles on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:00

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl... » Squiggles, posted by KayeBaby on March 24, 2007, at 17:13:29

OK - thanks for that post-- and for the magnesium explanation. What you say
about various mineral and vitamin deficiencies
causing illness is of course true and well-known.
It is a far more complex thing to unravel and
may not be consistent with the present neurophysiological research being done. But you must admit that neuropsychopharmacology and its attendant drugs are far ahead of orthomolecular medicine, for now anyway.

Squiggles

 

Re: Give it a whirl...

Posted by KayeBaby on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:01

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by Squiggles on March 24, 2007, at 17:58:50

If you need something to make a fast, impressive impact, neuropsychiatric meds are indeed the way to go.

I like to view psych-meds as a way to stop the bleeding and nutrition therapy as a method to heal the wound.

I do not think orthomolecular or nutrition based therapies will heal everyone. Optimization of ones nutritional status, however, cannot hurt.

Peace,
Kaye

 

Re: Give it a whirl... » KayeBaby

Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2007, at 4:35:01

In reply to Re: Give it a whirl..., posted by KayeBaby on March 24, 2007, at 18:52:59

Kaye agree l00% with you. Love Phillipa


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