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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by danr49 on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:50
I know this technically is supposed to go to the alternative board, but I don't know how many people actually read there. And I know many people are experimenting with this, so I'm posting on this board because it's important:
When you take phenylethylamine (PEA) with an MAOI, there's going to be a pressor dosage where the PEA will start to increase blood pressure and this dosage is likely < 50mg, due to norepinhephrine release just as with tyramine ingestion. After the pressor dosage is reached, even small amounts of increase over this amount will equate to substantial increase in blood pressure.
This can lead to hypertensive crisis that may cause stroke, death, etc.
The studies used carefully controlled dosages of a cap of not more than 20mg at a time given a few times daily.
Just 50mg (maybe less) at once while on an MAOI may cause a significant rise in blood pressure, and once you go much above this you're talking about hypertensive crisis and the possibility of dropping over dead. All it would take is mistakingly measuring out the powder wrong or something.
In other words, I would strongly recommend not doing this.
Posted by notfred on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:50
In reply to PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by danr49 on January 20, 2007, at 16:42:25
Yes, Phenethylamine and many substituted phenethylamines are well known no no's with
MAOI's.Did the study(s) use oral or transdermal selegiline ?
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:50
In reply to PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by danr49 on January 20, 2007, at 16:42:25
Thanks for posting this as you are so right so many are now on EMSAM. Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:51
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous » danr49, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2007, at 19:58:41
If you mean phenylalanine, I think most everyone here looking into the combo realizes it's warned against due to danger, but there are studies out there testifying to the efficacy of it. What's important is to be conservative and to keep an eye on blood pressure. A lot of people have combined both Emsam and oral selegeline with phenylalanine, conservatively, and live to tell the tale. Selegeline/Emsam can lower blood pressure, while phenylalanine boosts it back up a tad. People have also combined both oral selegeline and Emsam with stimulants such as ritalin and amphetamine, conservatively, and they too live to tell the tale. The trick with these is do so with your doctor, and keep an eye on the blood pressure. Someone with naturally low blood pressure will be far safer than someone already running high.
Posted by danr49 on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:51
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by laima on January 20, 2007, at 22:22:53
> If you mean phenylalanine,
No, I was talking about pure phenylethylamine.
Posted by djmmm on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:51
In reply to PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by danr49 on January 20, 2007, at 16:42:25
> I know this technically is supposed to go to the alternative board, but I don't know how many people actually read there. And I know many people are experimenting with this, so I'm posting on this board because it's important:
>
> When you take phenylethylamine (PEA) with an MAOI, there's going to be a pressor dosage where the PEA will start to increase blood pressure and this dosage is likely < 50mg, due to norepinhephrine release just as with tyramine ingestion. After the pressor dosage is reached, even small amounts of increase over this amount will equate to substantial increase in blood pressure.
>
> This can lead to hypertensive crisis that may cause stroke, death, etc.
>
> The studies used carefully controlled dosages of a cap of not more than 20mg at a time given a few times daily.
>
> Just 50mg (maybe less) at once while on an MAOI may cause a significant rise in blood pressure, and once you go much above this you're talking about hypertensive crisis and the possibility of dropping over dead. All it would take is mistakingly measuring out the powder wrong or something.
>
> In other words, I would strongly recommend not doing this.
>
>I agree that the "Hypertensive episode" warning does extend to the Selegiline/PEA combo.
This warning should be included in the MAOI/stimulant category-- that being said, At most conventional doses, the two can be safely combined (many people safely combine MAOIs with other medications)
It must also be noted that deprenyl REDUCES tyramine induced release of norepinephrine. As of January 2007 (Expert Opin Pharmacother. 2007 Jan;8(1):59-64) there have been "NO reports of hypertensive crisis in any patient receiving selegiline via this transdermal system at any of the three doses."
Many have combined high doses of non-selective MAOIs with stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall, with no ill effects. (note: adderall has been shown to increase levels of PEA by 1600%)
PEA, may be, in fact, safer than DLPA. DLPA converts to tyrosine-->dopa-->dopamine-->norepinephrine-->epinephrine -- all of which pose a greater risk of hypertensive crisis. It should also be noted that PEA has a half life of 0.4 minutes.
(Paterson, I. et al (1990) “2-Phenylethylamine: a modulator of catecholamine transmission in the mammalian central nervous system?” J Neurochem. 55, 1827-37. )
Posted by linkadge on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:51
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by djmmm on January 21, 2007, at 7:57:02
If the half life of PEA is 0.4 minautes, how does a MAO-B inhibitor like selegiline affect the half life?
Linkadge
Posted by laima on January 21, 2007, at 16:36:51
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by linkadge on January 21, 2007, at 8:50:15
.4 minutes half life?? As in, extremely brief? How strange.
I read somewhere recently something about how MAOIs make precription stimulants metabolize slower and stick around longer- so they build up more. Less becoming more, for practical purposes. My 15-20 mg adderall feels plenty with Emsam- I couldn't imagine taking much more at all- yet I know this is considered a very small dose. 20 mg ritalin with Emsam easily felt like 40-60 without Emsam. So I would speculate that the PEA would stick around longer and build up more, too. I wish I remember where I read what I did, and if I figure it out I'll re-check to see exactly what it said.
> If the half life of PEA is 0.4 minautes, how does a MAO-B inhibitor like selegiline affect the half life?
>
> Linkadge
Posted by djmmm on January 22, 2007, at 13:49:47
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by linkadge on January 21, 2007, at 8:50:15
> If the half life of PEA is 0.4 minautes, how does a MAO-B inhibitor like selegiline affect the half life?
>
> LinkadgeHonestly, i'm not exactly sure. I believe phenylethylamine is only metabolized by MAO-B (maybe COMT is involved?-- I'll do a little research) I am fairly certain that without MAO-B inhibition, supplementing with PEA would be useless.
Posted by Superman on January 22, 2007, at 20:38:25
In reply to PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous, posted by danr49 on January 20, 2007, at 16:42:25
Yes! I know!
I tried this combination, with a super high (500mg -1000g) dose of PEA (it was for recreational purposes)...
...worked fine once, twice, ... then one time (perhaps I had more selegiline in my system at the time) I had a brutally painful hypertensive crisis. I nearly died and at the time, because of the pain, I wanted to.
For those who have had them, hypertensive crisises are not fun, and potentially lethal.
-Be careful with this combination!! I suspect that any MAO-A inhibition with PEA is enough to easily cause a crisis. (remember selegiline does have some MAO-A inhibition at higher doses!)
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 29, 2007, at 23:21:04
In reply to Re: PEA with selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous » linkadge, posted by laima on January 21, 2007, at 9:11:31
I tried PEA Hcl for awhile with Selegiline and thought it was awful and like you said , it can be pretty dangerous too! Its like taking some really sh*tty dirty speed.. feel jittery, (thank god it doesn't last long) and like crap later on. Why anyone would want to do this after trying it a couple times is beyond me.
I think raisng levels of PEA with Selegiline + exercise ( or DLPA) can make you feel better. but adding the PEA directly just is not a feasible option for lifting your mood in the long run.
Posted by jumes on February 10, 2007, at 19:06:19
In reply to Re: PEA selegiline(Emsam) is dangerous!!!, posted by Superman on January 22, 2007, at 15:39:56
> Yes! I know!
>
> I tried this combination, with a super high (500mg -1000g) dose of PEA (it was for recreational purposes)...
>
> ...worked fine once, twice, ... then one time (perhaps I had more selegiline in my system at the time) I had a brutally painful hypertensive crisis. I nearly died and at the time, because of the pain, I wanted to.One real survivor!! :-))
Superman, please tell us: were you using Emsam or the standard selegiline in tablets? And at what dose?
This information would be very interesting for us: finally we would have some concrete dosage figures to evaluate approximately where is the dangerous threshold.
Thanks in advance
This is the end of the thread.
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