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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Elroy on May 25, 2005, at 22:47:11
Anyone have any information / experience with The Pfeiffer Treatment Center? I believe that they have sites in Illinois and also Minnesota.
"Our mission is to increase an individual’s ability to lead a productive and rewarding life by focusing on the research, education and nutritional treatment of biochemical imbalances"... Pfeiffer Treatment Center Services: Evaluation and Treatment of Biochemical Imbalances
Articles from their head guy (a Dr. Walsh) can be found at this site:
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm
Wondering if anyone has used their services or knew of anyone who has?
Or if anyone has checked out any of these listed articles???
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2005, at 23:13:27
In reply to Pfeiffer Treatment Center, posted by Elroy on May 25, 2005, at 22:47:11
> Wondering if anyone has used their services or knew of anyone who has?
>
> Or if anyone has checked out any of these listed articles???Somebody who used to post here was a client of Pfeiffer's for about a year. Many many posts on the subject. Macpac? I think that was the name.
I do believe the final conclusion was it was a money-grabbing outfit. No real feedback. No real guidance. Expensive supps. Think you're going to see and speak with a doctor, and instead a nurse hands you a pamphlet. That kind of thing.
That would be the Illinois branch, also, if I'm not too mistaken.
I'm also not to thrilled by some of the medical rationale used for their treatment protocols. No recent publication. Contradictory advice.
Despite all that, I think it can be a good starting point. If you take the four categories rather loosely, the supplement ideas are mostly on target. It's the exceptions that might make the difference, though.
Lar
Posted by Elroy on May 27, 2005, at 20:55:58
In reply to Re: Pfeiffer Treatment Center » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2005, at 23:13:27
Thanks.
Located those posts refered to and came to same conclusion.
Plus found a link that seemed to agree with a number of the points made, but also pointed out the couple glaring discrepancies to the logic that they provide.
http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm
QUOTE: Contradiction with information from Pfeiffer Treatment Center - There is a contradiction between the majority of the information on methylation and the description on the Pfeiffer Treatment Center web site. The precursors that go into the methylation cycle for SAMe / neurotransmitters / dopamine / serotonin are methionine, folate, B12, B6, TMG and zinc, and maybe some calcium and magnesium. So, logic follows that if the one of the precursors is limiting (low), then methylation would be limiting (low) and the neurotransmitters and resulting pathways would be limited (low). This also supports the use of SAMe and the precursors as being effective for depression (because they increase neurotransmitters which improve mood). But the Pfeiffer information does not follow this. From the Pfeiffer site http://www.hriptc.org/BioTreatment.html in regards to depression and neurotransmitters, one sentence says: "Over- Methylation: Many persons who suffer from anxiety and depression are over-methylated which results in excessive levels of dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin." Over-methylation would result in excessive levels of the neurotransmitters listed, but this is not necessarily consistent with depression (I don't know about anxiety). The other references say that under-methylation results in depression. The next sentence from Pfeiffer says: "Typical symptoms include chemical and food sensitivities, underachievement, upper body pain, and an adverse reaction to serotonin-enhancing substances such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, St. John's Wort, and SAMe." It would seem that over-methylation would be adversely affected by MORE serotonin, SAMe, etc, because the body already has too much of that stuff. However, I could also associate the food sensitivities and underachievement with depression. Continuing with Pfeiffer: "They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in folates, niacin, and Vitamin B-12, and biochemical treatment focuses on supplementation of these nutrients." This part is the opposite of other references. The folates and vitamin B-12 would be precursors, so an over-methylator should not be deficient in precursors. A person deficient in precursors should be low in methylation. Pfeiffer may have different information...or it may be more complicated and the short summary on their web site is not conveying things right. So, either something is missing, one of these is not quite right, or something else is going on, but at least this explains the inconsistency between Pfeiffer and other sources. Pfeiffer is saying that B6, TMG, DMG, SAMe and SSRIs (medications that increase serotonin such as Zoloft and Prozac) are good for those with low methylation, but B12 and folic acid is not (even though folic acid and B12 are precursors too). However, the other sites say that ALL of those nutrients listed are precursors or otherwise aid in increasing methylation. Pfeiffer is splitting out the folic acid and B12 from the others for some reason. Andy Cutler made a comment at one point saying that Pfeiffer may be using these terms differently and may be referring to specific aspects of the methylation cycle. I called the Pfeiffer office and the answer was that they would be happy to answer the methylation question and discuss it for $90. I explained the situation, and the receptionist said no problem, but it would cost $90 up front. If someone is currently a patient of Pfeiffer, then maybe they could ask at their next visit or conference call. This is the question that needs to be answered by Pfeiffer: "If folate (folic acid) and B12 are two of the precursors (as are B6, TMG, and maybe zinc, magnesium and calcium) why would a deficiency of folate and B12 indicate OVER-methylation. Wouldn't a deficiency of the precursors also mean a deficiency of the end products or low/under methylation?"
END QUOTEX
X
X
X
X> > Wondering if anyone has used their services or knew of anyone who has?
> >
> > Or if anyone has checked out any of these listed articles???
>
> Somebody who used to post here was a client of Pfeiffer's for about a year. Many many posts on the subject. Macpac? I think that was the name.
>
> I do believe the final conclusion was it was a money-grabbing outfit. No real feedback. No real guidance. Expensive supps. Think you're going to see and speak with a doctor, and instead a nurse hands you a pamphlet. That kind of thing.
>
> That would be the Illinois branch, also, if I'm not too mistaken.
>
> I'm also not to thrilled by some of the medical rationale used for their treatment protocols. No recent publication. Contradictory advice.
>
> Despite all that, I think it can be a good starting point. If you take the four categories rather loosely, the supplement ideas are mostly on target. It's the exceptions that might make the difference, though.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by tealady on May 27, 2005, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: Pfeiffer Treatment Center » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on May 27, 2005, at 20:55:58
> Continuing with Pfeiffer: "They have a genetic tendency to be very depressed in folates, niacin, and Vitamin B-12, and biochemical treatment focuses on supplementation of these nutrients." This part is the opposite of other references. The folates and vitamin B-12 would be precursors, so an over-methylator should not be deficient in precursors. A person deficient in precursors should be low in methylation.
Pfeiffer is saying that B6, TMG, DMG, SAMe and SSRIs (medications that increase serotonin such as Zoloft and Prozac) are good for those with low methylation,
but B12 and folic acid is not (even though folic acid and B12 are precursors too).Pfeiffer is splitting out the folic acid and B12 from the others for some reason.
the receptionist said no problem, but it would cost $90 up front. > >
>
>well IMHO the receptionist wouldn't have foggiest if anyone there could answer that question..but she IS trained to take $90 upfront regardless and book ya to someone who will maybe attempt an answer or maybe try to treat you as a routine patient :-)
Personally I think there may be a difference.
I can't tolerate methylcobalamin, but I think I'm OK on adensylcobalamin(no methyl). I also have high (over range) folate with NO supplementation...and high over the range selenium as well with no supps...But I do well on SAMe, zinc, calcium, magnesium, or at least they don't affect me negatively.
I haven't tried TMG. I've bought some from the US, but don't feel strong enough to try at present.
(My ferritin blood tests came back low again...really normal iron levels , hence the tiredness and sleeping and hair loss etc).My B12 is lowish and doesn't rise as fast or as much as others with supps either. (sublinguals and needles together for 18 months)..even with adverse reactions to the supps.
So for me anyway there's a diff somewhere there.
No idea what and the diagrams Lar put up are not detailed enough to explain any difference. My guess is it's not known.I didn't tolerate SSRI's well either...my gut at least is high enough in serotonin it doesn't need any more.
tea
This is the end of the thread.
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