![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 121 to 145 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on March 16, 2005, at 19:28:51
In reply to RE: DLPA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 16, 2005, at 11:12:22
Hi Elroy,
Yes, I'm sure that's why he put Effexor in that category but E. is overwhelmingly serotonergic. The NE isn't supposed to kick in to any appreciable degree until 225 mg. My experience with it (as well as several others I know) is that it does create the SSRI type of apathy. A friend of mine was on 300 mg. and he was very happy but he just couldn't get off of the couch. I think overall that it's dopamine dampening effects far outweight it's dopamine enhancing effects. But this book was written a few years ago and I know I am splitting hairs here. There's so much more in the book. I am enjoying reading it.
K
> Yes, would like to hear back from Franco.....
>
> Also, you need to remember that dopamine converts to norepinephrine and I know that Effexor does that (as it triggered a severe NE-induced case of prostatitis in me!!!).
>
>>
> > > I thought the level of the book was excellent for a layman's udnerstanding. It sure helped me understand a ton more about theneurotransmitters and what they do and what ones cause what deficiencies and what nutrients are needed to balance and then optimize their functioning.
> > >
> > > Don't get me wrong. Dr. Braverman is - as he clearly expresses - not an opponent of pharmaceuticals and believes that there are frequent times when their intervention is an absolute necessity (Lord knows I can relate top that!). Now that being said, he also comments about how his main objective is as often as possible to get his patients (as much as possible) off pharmaceuticals as soon as reasonably able to do so and on to supplements, nutrients, therapy, etc.
> > >
> > > But for purposes of understanding - and maybe getting a handle on one's own situation - I'd highly recommend it for any layman. As one example, I was able to clearly understand why SSRI meds - and even SSNRI meds - do NOT work for many depressed persons (and even fewer people with pure anxiety problems) after reading his book....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Do some research (Searches) on the substance picamilon (sometimes spelled picamilone). It is a bonding of GABA with naicin that supposedly gets through the brain's blood barrier quite effectively (50%, 70%???). Anyway, quite a bit of interesting information out there about it.
> > > >
> > > > I've been taking picamilon for a couple of weeks now. I started picamilon, piracetam and selegiline almost at the same time so it's kind of hard to tell whats doing what. I also tripled at least the lecithin I've been taking. Usually I don't like to change more than one thing but the packages came within days of each other so I just dived in. The combination is helping, a little more motivation and a more rational thought process.
> > > >
> > > > > Also would strongly consider Ativan or even Xanax (in the XR version only) to get the sharp edges of the current anxiety dealt with (and then maybe wean off on to natural substances such as Valeran, Kava, Theanine, etc.).
> > > >
> > > > I'm afraid to take any benzos, I took valium for a couple of days and it sent me right down. I wasn't particularly depressed right before I took it but it got bad quickly. Maybe a different one would be better but I'm not ready to take that step.
> > > >
> > > > > And maybe use the Picamilon during that time period to rebuild the GABA neurotransmitters in the brain?
> > > >
> > > > I hope this will happen.
> > > >
> > > > > Dr. Braverman's book "The Edge Effect" gets a lot more into the various neurotransmitters and all about correcting deficiencies, balancing and optimizing the four main neurotransmitters. Would highly recommend it.
> > > >
> > > > Where would you say the level of the book is at? I can't seem to get my head around which receptors in which part of the brain do what and it's not from a lack of trying.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Rick
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > I'm reading his book now. I just took the tests and discovered that I am a "GABA nature" and that I have moderate deficiencies in all of the 4 neurotransmitters he deals with. The "GABA nature" was a surprise to me but not the deficiencies. I like his approach in using meds, supplements, lifestyle, diet and CES with the idea of eventually getting you off of meds. I'm still a bit skeptical about the whole idea that we all have a dominant nature and that treatment should revolve around this idea. Also, there are a couple of minor points that I don't think are accurate (i.e. listing Effexor as being dopamine friendly). Overall I think it's interesting, informative and worth a try. I wish that Franco Neuro will come back to PB and post about his progress in working with Dr. Braverman.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 16, 2005, at 22:26:37
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 16, 2005, at 19:28:51
Well, my NE effects kicked in immediately that same day. By the next afternoon I was in agony. I then went through the same thing with Cymbalta (also an SSNRI) - only it took about a week instead of immediately. I have since "experimented" with anything that "boosts" NE (for example, higher doses of DLPA or even just the L-version alone) and find the the prostatitis type symptoms flare up very quickly. What was amazing was how fast and how severe the Effexor's reaction was.... never had enough time on it to build up any apathy or anything else!
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Yes, I'm sure that's why he put Effexor in that category but E. is overwhelmingly serotonergic. The NE isn't supposed to kick in to any appreciable degree until 225 mg. My experience with it (as well as several others I know) is that it does create the SSRI type of apathy. A friend of mine was on 300 mg. and he was very happy but he just couldn't get off of the couch. I think overall that it's dopamine dampening effects far outweight it's dopamine enhancing effects. But this book was written a few years ago and I know I am splitting hairs here. There's so much more in the book. I am enjoying reading it.
>
> K
>
>
> > Yes, would like to hear back from Franco.....
> >
> > Also, you need to remember that dopamine converts to norepinephrine and I know that Effexor does that (as it triggered a severe NE-induced case of prostatitis in me!!!).
> >
> >>
> > > > I thought the level of the book was excellent for a layman's udnerstanding. It sure helped me understand a ton more about theneurotransmitters and what they do and what ones cause what deficiencies and what nutrients are needed to balance and then optimize their functioning.
> > > >
> > > > Don't get me wrong. Dr. Braverman is - as he clearly expresses - not an opponent of pharmaceuticals and believes that there are frequent times when their intervention is an absolute necessity (Lord knows I can relate top that!). Now that being said, he also comments about how his main objective is as often as possible to get his patients (as much as possible) off pharmaceuticals as soon as reasonably able to do so and on to supplements, nutrients, therapy, etc.
> > > >
> > > > But for purposes of understanding - and maybe getting a handle on one's own situation - I'd highly recommend it for any layman. As one example, I was able to clearly understand why SSRI meds - and even SSNRI meds - do NOT work for many depressed persons (and even fewer people with pure anxiety problems) after reading his book....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Do some research (Searches) on the substance picamilon (sometimes spelled picamilone). It is a bonding of GABA with naicin that supposedly gets through the brain's blood barrier quite effectively (50%, 70%???). Anyway, quite a bit of interesting information out there about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been taking picamilon for a couple of weeks now. I started picamilon, piracetam and selegiline almost at the same time so it's kind of hard to tell whats doing what. I also tripled at least the lecithin I've been taking. Usually I don't like to change more than one thing but the packages came within days of each other so I just dived in. The combination is helping, a little more motivation and a more rational thought process.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Also would strongly consider Ativan or even Xanax (in the XR version only) to get the sharp edges of the current anxiety dealt with (and then maybe wean off on to natural substances such as Valeran, Kava, Theanine, etc.).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm afraid to take any benzos, I took valium for a couple of days and it sent me right down. I wasn't particularly depressed right before I took it but it got bad quickly. Maybe a different one would be better but I'm not ready to take that step.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And maybe use the Picamilon during that time period to rebuild the GABA neurotransmitters in the brain?
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this will happen.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Braverman's book "The Edge Effect" gets a lot more into the various neurotransmitters and all about correcting deficiencies, balancing and optimizing the four main neurotransmitters. Would highly recommend it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where would you say the level of the book is at? I can't seem to get my head around which receptors in which part of the brain do what and it's not from a lack of trying.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > Rick
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm reading his book now. I just took the tests and discovered that I am a "GABA nature" and that I have moderate deficiencies in all of the 4 neurotransmitters he deals with. The "GABA nature" was a surprise to me but not the deficiencies. I like his approach in using meds, supplements, lifestyle, diet and CES with the idea of eventually getting you off of meds. I'm still a bit skeptical about the whole idea that we all have a dominant nature and that treatment should revolve around this idea. Also, there are a couple of minor points that I don't think are accurate (i.e. listing Effexor as being dopamine friendly). Overall I think it's interesting, informative and worth a try. I wish that Franco Neuro will come back to PB and post about his progress in working with Dr. Braverman.
> > >
> > > K
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 17, 2005, at 8:42:49
In reply to RE: DLPA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 16, 2005, at 22:26:37
That's amazing - esp. considering that Effexor has much less NE at starting doses than Cymbalta. For some reason the NE was more available to you from the Effexor. At any rate, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I hope that your nature and deficiencies (as defined by Dr. Braverman) don't require taking meds or supplements that impact NE and would aggrivate this problem.
K
> Well, my NE effects kicked in immediately that same day. By the next afternoon I was in agony. I then went through the same thing with Cymbalta (also an SSNRI) - only it took about a week instead of immediately. I have since "experimented" with anything that "boosts" NE (for example, higher doses of DLPA or even just the L-version alone) and find the the prostatitis type symptoms flare up very quickly. What was amazing was how fast and how severe the Effexor's reaction was.... never had enough time on it to build up any apathy or anything else!
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Yes, I'm sure that's why he put Effexor in that category but E. is overwhelmingly serotonergic. The NE isn't supposed to kick in to any appreciable degree until 225 mg. My experience with it (as well as several others I know) is that it does create the SSRI type of apathy. A friend of mine was on 300 mg. and he was very happy but he just couldn't get off of the couch. I think overall that it's dopamine dampening effects far outweight it's dopamine enhancing effects. But this book was written a few years ago and I know I am splitting hairs here. There's so much more in the book. I am enjoying reading it.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > > Yes, would like to hear back from Franco.....
> > >
> > > Also, you need to remember that dopamine converts to norepinephrine and I know that Effexor does that (as it triggered a severe NE-induced case of prostatitis in me!!!).
> > >
> > >>
> > > > > I thought the level of the book was excellent for a layman's udnerstanding. It sure helped me understand a ton more about theneurotransmitters and what they do and what ones cause what deficiencies and what nutrients are needed to balance and then optimize their functioning.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't get me wrong. Dr. Braverman is - as he clearly expresses - not an opponent of pharmaceuticals and believes that there are frequent times when their intervention is an absolute necessity (Lord knows I can relate top that!). Now that being said, he also comments about how his main objective is as often as possible to get his patients (as much as possible) off pharmaceuticals as soon as reasonably able to do so and on to supplements, nutrients, therapy, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > But for purposes of understanding - and maybe getting a handle on one's own situation - I'd highly recommend it for any layman. As one example, I was able to clearly understand why SSRI meds - and even SSNRI meds - do NOT work for many depressed persons (and even fewer people with pure anxiety problems) after reading his book....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Do some research (Searches) on the substance picamilon (sometimes spelled picamilone). It is a bonding of GABA with naicin that supposedly gets through the brain's blood barrier quite effectively (50%, 70%???). Anyway, quite a bit of interesting information out there about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've been taking picamilon for a couple of weeks now. I started picamilon, piracetam and selegiline almost at the same time so it's kind of hard to tell whats doing what. I also tripled at least the lecithin I've been taking. Usually I don't like to change more than one thing but the packages came within days of each other so I just dived in. The combination is helping, a little more motivation and a more rational thought process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also would strongly consider Ativan or even Xanax (in the XR version only) to get the sharp edges of the current anxiety dealt with (and then maybe wean off on to natural substances such as Valeran, Kava, Theanine, etc.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm afraid to take any benzos, I took valium for a couple of days and it sent me right down. I wasn't particularly depressed right before I took it but it got bad quickly. Maybe a different one would be better but I'm not ready to take that step.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And maybe use the Picamilon during that time period to rebuild the GABA neurotransmitters in the brain?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope this will happen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr. Braverman's book "The Edge Effect" gets a lot more into the various neurotransmitters and all about correcting deficiencies, balancing and optimizing the four main neurotransmitters. Would highly recommend it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Where would you say the level of the book is at? I can't seem to get my head around which receptors in which part of the brain do what and it's not from a lack of trying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > Rick
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm reading his book now. I just took the tests and discovered that I am a "GABA nature" and that I have moderate deficiencies in all of the 4 neurotransmitters he deals with. The "GABA nature" was a surprise to me but not the deficiencies. I like his approach in using meds, supplements, lifestyle, diet and CES with the idea of eventually getting you off of meds. I'm still a bit skeptical about the whole idea that we all have a dominant nature and that treatment should revolve around this idea. Also, there are a couple of minor points that I don't think are accurate (i.e. listing Effexor as being dopamine friendly). Overall I think it's interesting, informative and worth a try. I wish that Franco Neuro will come back to PB and post about his progress in working with Dr. Braverman.
> > > >
> > > > K
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 17, 2005, at 15:40:26
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 17, 2005, at 8:42:49
Actually, there's now being some concern expressed that a tumor found in my left adrenal gland (small lesion, about 2.1 x 1.8 cm) may have something to do with all of this. The contrasting CT scan showed it to be benign. This was found back in late September after it was discovered that I had sky-high cortisol levels. In fact, they first thought that I probably had Cushing's Syndrome caused by a adrenal tumor (the one that was found). Further tests showed however that I didn't have Cushing's, so the adrenal lesion was written off as an "incidental non endocrinological tumor" (that's just sitting there doing nothing). But now there's some question as to whether or not this tumor might be causing unnatural secretion of adrenaline / NE (and thereby causing the anxiety, the raised cortisol, the breakdown of the HPA Axis and HPAT Axis, the neuropathy pains, the tinnitus, etc.). You've got to rememebr that the adrenal has two layers, an outer layer that is the "cortex" and secretes hormones like cortisol, testosterone in women, etc., and an inner layer called the medulla that secretes adreneline and NE.
My regular doc is trying to locate a follow-up separate enocrinologist to send me to who would strictly look into the possible problems with the adrenal tumor and what - if anything - it might be doing......
My own speculation is that if I have an irregular / continual secretion of NE going on, that would account for the constant anxiety (which isn't a social anxiety or a trauma-oriented anxiety, but is a GAD type anxiety but very severe if I'm not on consistent heavy meds - like Xanax). The other symptoms - including the elevated cortisol and the prostatitis type symptoms and peripheral neuropthy and tinnitus and hypogonadism then could be caused by some combination of the high NE and high cortisol and severe anxiety (???).... and would maybe explain how any little spike in the incoming NE (like Effexor) would trigger a prostatitis type flare up....
> That's amazing - esp. considering that Effexor has much less NE at starting doses than Cymbalta. For some reason the NE was more available to you from the Effexor. At any rate, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I hope that your nature and deficiencies (as defined by Dr. Braverman) don't require taking meds or supplements that impact NE and would aggrivate this problem.
>
> K
Posted by KaraS on March 17, 2005, at 18:04:43
In reply to RE: DLPA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 17, 2005, at 15:40:26
Gee, that sounds awful - but at least you have doctors who seem to be getting to the bottom of things (rather than writing you off as a hypochondriac). I'm sure it will be very helpful once they pinpoint what is causing all of this extra cortisol, NE and therefore, anxiety plus all of the other related health problems. It's good in a way that you have some physical problem causing all of the rest of the problems because then it can probably be cured rather than just treated.
Anyway, I can see that you're going through a lot and my thoughts are with you.
Kara
> Actually, there's now being some concern expressed that a tumor found in my left adrenal gland (small lesion, about 2.1 x 1.8 cm) may have something to do with all of this. The contrasting CT scan showed it to be benign. This was found back in late September after it was discovered that I had sky-high cortisol levels. In fact, they first thought that I probably had Cushing's Syndrome caused by a adrenal tumor (the one that was found). Further tests showed however that I didn't have Cushing's, so the adrenal lesion was written off as an "incidental non endocrinological tumor" (that's just sitting there doing nothing). But now there's some question as to whether or not this tumor might be causing unnatural secretion of adrenaline / NE (and thereby causing the anxiety, the raised cortisol, the breakdown of the HPA Axis and HPAT Axis, the neuropathy pains, the tinnitus, etc.). You've got to rememebr that the adrenal has two layers, an outer layer that is the "cortex" and secretes hormones like cortisol, testosterone in women, etc., and an inner layer called the medulla that secretes adreneline and NE.
>
> My regular doc is trying to locate a follow-up separate enocrinologist to send me to who would strictly look into the possible problems with the adrenal tumor and what - if anything - it might be doing......
>
> My own speculation is that if I have an irregular / continual secretion of NE going on, that would account for the constant anxiety (which isn't a social anxiety or a trauma-oriented anxiety, but is a GAD type anxiety but very severe if I'm not on consistent heavy meds - like Xanax). The other symptoms - including the elevated cortisol and the prostatitis type symptoms and peripheral neuropthy and tinnitus and hypogonadism then could be caused by some combination of the high NE and high cortisol and severe anxiety (???).... and would maybe explain how any little spike in the incoming NE (like Effexor) would trigger a prostatitis type flare up....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > That's amazing - esp. considering that Effexor has much less NE at starting doses than Cymbalta. For some reason the NE was more available to you from the Effexor. At any rate, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I hope that your nature and deficiencies (as defined by Dr. Braverman) don't require taking meds or supplements that impact NE and would aggrivate this problem.
> >
> > K
Posted by gromit on March 17, 2005, at 19:32:15
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 15, 2005, at 14:34:40
> Have you had any direct experience with smi2le? I ordered from them quite a while ago. I waited a few weeks only to receive about 1/3 of the order. I am still waiting for the remainder of the order. These people absolutely will NOT respond to e-mails (at least any of mine) and have only had luck getting through to them once by telephone - and that was when they suddenly did send me at least the one part of my order!
Yes I've bought 5+ times from him and always got what I paid for in a reasonable time. This last time they didn't send the creatine I wanted though, I got a note in the package saying it was back ordered. That was a few weeks ago, I guess it's time to shoot them an email. You aren't the only one to complain about the service that's for sure but so far it's been good for me.
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 18, 2005, at 11:03:30
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by gromit on March 17, 2005, at 19:32:15
Rick,
Let me know if you get any response from them as I am still getting no responses from e-mails or phone calls.
Elroy> > Have you had any direct experience with smi2le? I ordered from them quite a while ago. I waited a few weeks only to receive about 1/3 of the order. I am still waiting for the remainder of the order. These people absolutely will NOT respond to e-mails (at least any of mine) and have only had luck getting through to them once by telephone - and that was when they suddenly did send me at least the one part of my order!
>
> Yes I've bought 5+ times from him and always got what I paid for in a reasonable time. This last time they didn't send the creatine I wanted though, I got a note in the package saying it was back ordered. That was a few weeks ago, I guess it's time to shoot them an email. You aren't the only one to complain about the service that's for sure but so far it's been good for me.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:18:25
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
>
> Hey Mogger,
> according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.
>
> WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
> World Citizen
The link didn't work.Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:21:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World CitizenFirst, you mis-spelled deprenyl, and second, the last slash shouldn't be there.
The correct link is:
http://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:32:34
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World Citizenhttp://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
Editorially, the article is clearly written by a non-scientist. There are some factual errors, and many semantic and descriptive ones.
I'll focus on a couple errors. SAMe does NOT reduce homocysteine. It, in fact, can only increase homocysteine, as homocysteine is a direct byproduct of SAMe metabolism. If you increase SAMe by any means, without increasing the reprocessing of homocysteine, homocysteine levels will rise.
There are two routes to homocysteine reprocessing. One, usually the dominant one, requires vitamins B6 and B12, where B12 is a methyl-donor to homocysteine, producing methionine. The other system, an inducible hepatic enzyme, requires TMG. TMG is the methyl-donor for converting homocysteine to methionine.
The second error involves the recommendation for a omega 3-6-9 oil supplement. You cannot benefit from such a supplement, unless your regular diet is absolutely devoid of all polyunsaturated fatty acids. I can assure you, that is not the case. And, flax oil cannot supply the (they'll soon be) essential fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). That means marine oil (fish, seal, krill, etc.), or the vegetarian product, Neuromins (derived from algae).
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:42:52
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
> Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
>
> As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates moodClose enough, but dopamine is the direct precurser to noradrenaline, which is then converted into adrenaline (sometimes called epinephrine).
The advantage of DLPA over LPA with selegiline is that D-phenylalanine does not fit into the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to tyrosine. It does, however, fit into the enzyme that decarboxylates phenylalanine into PEA. So, half the DLPA dose (i.e. the DPA) can only go to PEA, and a little bit of the LPA probably gets converted to PEA as well....I'd expect a roughly 55% yield of PEA from DLPA, as compared to maybe 10% yield from pure L-phenylalanine.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:48:21
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:53:26
> I can only report that I've seen posts both ways. Obviously 5mg is 5mg either way, so I think that it boils down to whether or not the liquid version metabolizes faster for some people... and if it does then is that actually even a benefit? Maybe slower metabolizing is better???
The advantage of the liquid is that it is sublingual. The selegiline can directly enter the blood stream across the mucous membranes of the mouth. This bypasses the enteric circulation system, which has massive amounts of the enzymes that break selegiline down. By going straight into the cerebral circulation, more undegraded selegiline can reach the brain, when compared with normal oral dosing. Snorting drugs....why? Straight to the brain. Same sort of rationale.
BTW, that is also why the selegiline patch was developed, to bypass the enteric circulation system, and all its degredatory enzymes.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:53:41
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 14, 2005, at 19:13:50
> Do some research (Searches) on the substance picamilon (sometimes spelled picamilone). It is a bonding of GABA with naicin that supposedly gets through the brain's blood barrier quite effectively (50%, 70%???). Anyway, quite a bit of interesting information out there about it.
Best source I found for picamilon:
http://www.beyond-a-century.com/
Lar
P.S. Have it, but haven't tried it yet.
Posted by Elroy on March 26, 2005, at 13:42:33
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:42:52
Well, what I have found - with the Dr. Bib protocol or whatever - is that the DLPA or even LPA tends to make my anxiety and certain physical symptoms qute worse. Physical symptoms such as a UTI or semi-prostatitis type pain. My urologist thinks that I have an over-production of adrenaline (NE and so forth) and that it is not only causing the severe anxiety, but also the flare-ups of the UTI type symptoms and some other "evil effects"... and that any supplement that I take that greatly increases NE (etc.) just worsenes things.
Interesting....
And, yes, I caught those same errors on the Dr. Bib web site. With SAMe - and I also believe with TMG - is pretty necessary to take th B vites...
Interestingly, the Deprenyl by itself (5 mg dose) did NOT have that same effect, only when I took it with the DLPA or even just the LPA... so then I wondered about just the "D" version? I wonder if it would have lessened effects on increasing NE, etc. as (I believe) it is mostly converting to PEA???
Then I got to thinking....
My primary problem is ANXIETY - not depression. And here I am getting caught up - like most pscyh docs - in looking at ADs to address an anxiety problem. I actually have very little depression - other than the ocasional depression at being ticked off at my continuing physical / emotional state!
I had a somewhat "unique" situation occur where I had developed anxiety problems (after several years of stress related to work stress in a whistleblower environment and a subsequent whistleblower lawsuit) for about 18 months or so (July 2002 to early February 2004) and then everything cleared up. The anxiety was mostly on-again and off-again and mild to moderate with occasionals ever episode - but even then not extremely so.
And then in June of 2004 the anxiety returned much, much worse and remained constant - and seemed to just worsen week by week. Within just 2 - 3 weeks I had the following physical symptoms quickly appear - and with severe ysmptoms almost immediately, no "build up": hypogonadism, UTI or prostatitis type pains (but no infection ever found), tinnitus, and peripheral neuropathy type pains in hands and (especially) feet - plus some other minor symptoms. No significant problems in any of those areas prior to then.
No depression (other than the occasional normal depression at my continuing state of condition), but severe on-going anxiety.
Last September I was found to have extremely high cortisol levels but anti-cortisol supplements have done a nice job in bringing those levels back down (still elevated, but now just above normal). In September my cortisol levels were almost SIX times the maximum end of the normal reference range! Unknown what they were in June (took a while to get an ENDO to do the desired testing, but I suspect was even much higher. Was some initial concerns as to having Cushing's, but that was eliminated with numerous advanced testings.
Levels stayed high until late September when I was put on 1st anti-anxiety med (Ativan) when they came down a little bit. When I was switched over to Xanax XR they came down another noticeable chunk (but still prety high). The big ddecreases started after a regimen of taking strong anti-cortisol products (only after Cushing's was eliminated).
Interestingly, during the testing process, a small "lesion" (i.e., tumor) was found INSIDE my left adrenal gland. Cushing's can - of course - be caused by an adrenal gland tumor (though usually it is a pituitary gland tumor), but once Cushing's was eliminated the adrenal gland tumor was declared "incidental" and "probably not biologically active".
Now a new PCP doc that I recently hooked up with has expressed some strong reservations about that adrenal gland tumor. He pointed out that being inside the gland that it is probably affecting the adrenaline secretion as that's where it occurs in the adrenal gland, in the medulla or inner layer. His suspicions - at this point - is that the adrenal gland tumor may have caused the severe anxiety and some of the physical symptoms and somewhere along the way the HPAT Axis obviously broke down and the lowered testosterone production and the the super high cortisol output was part of the body's reaction to that...
So.....
A whole new round of (different) testing coming up. My PCP seems to think that the adrenal gand needs to come out and that then the anxiety - and subsequently a lot of the physical symptoms - will clear up. Not as convinced that theHPAT Axis will then achieve a full "re-set" or not after that...
Elroy> > Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
> >
> > As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates mood
>
> Close enough, but dopamine is the direct precurser to noradrenaline, which is then converted into adrenaline (sometimes called epinephrine).
>
> The advantage of DLPA over LPA with selegiline is that D-phenylalanine does not fit into the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to tyrosine. It does, however, fit into the enzyme that decarboxylates phenylalanine into PEA. So, half the DLPA dose (i.e. the DPA) can only go to PEA, and a little bit of the LPA probably gets converted to PEA as well....I'd expect a roughly 55% yield of PEA from DLPA, as compared to maybe 10% yield from pure L-phenylalanine.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 14:09:04
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on March 26, 2005, at 13:42:33
> Now a new PCP doc that I recently hooked up with has expressed some strong reservations about that adrenal gland tumor. He pointed out that being inside the gland that it is probably affecting the adrenaline secretion as that's where it occurs in the adrenal gland, in the medulla or inner layer. His suspicions - at this point - is that the adrenal gland tumor may have caused the severe anxiety and some of the physical symptoms and somewhere along the way the HPAT Axis obviously broke down and the lowered testosterone production and the the super high cortisol output was part of the body's reaction to that...
My own reaction to that information was similar....it was absurd to discount an adrenal lesion as the causative factor solely on the basis of a sample of blood tests. You had many *other* abnormal blood tests, and you have a lesion identified. There is no a priori reason to assume the lesion invokes stable hormone output. It may hypersecrete under certain conditions, though.
It's an axiom in medicine to think horses, not zebras, when you hear hoofbeats. However, in this case, you already know there's a zebra in the vicinity.
Lar
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 16:40:56
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 18, 2005, at 11:03:30
> Let me know if you get any response from them as I am still getting no responses from e-mails or phone calls.
Well I haven't heard back from them via email, haven't tried calling since I'm only out 5 bucks. I'll have to add my name as a dissatisfied customer, too bad because they have some really good prices.
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 19:25:21
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 14:09:04
Here's how this how package seemed to go down:
1. Realize something's terribly wrong - physically as well as emotionally.
2. Go to regular PCP (who sells nutritional supplements on side and has a rehab work-out center attached to his offices). He wants "full physical done" (which consists of just very basic blood work).
3. Regular PP comes back with diagnosis that I am just "getting older" (early 50s) and need to "eat better", "supplement my diet" and "exercise more" (note... I already was doing ALL three).
4. When I insisted on more testing, he checked again and found that I had "dismally low" testosterone levels (a month before all of this started - with the initial onslaught of bad anxiety which just kept getting more and more severe). Without checking any other particulars, I was put on a minimum level dosage of AndroGel.
5. Insisted on more testing and was referred to a (local) Endo. He wrote up a bunch of tests and I literally had to beg to get cortisol testing added to the work order (I actually thought that it might be adrenal fatigue). Instead it came back as extremely elevated cortisol levels. Local endo was ecstatic as he thought that it was Cushings for sure (based on ultra high levels and one older fashioned CRH Test).
6. Urologist that I was seeing was upset that no one was looking at adrenal glands (the local endo was just sure it was a pituitary tumor based Cushings). So local Endo had CT Scan done and found a 2.1 x 1.8 cm in left adrenal gland).
7. Urologist was convinced that adrenal gland lesion was responsible for Cushings but local endo remained convinced it was pituitary.
8. At that I transfered to a major medical clinic endo. He had more advanced testing conducted and results came back that it wasn't Cushings. So therefore there was no pit tumor OR adrenal tumor DIRECTLY causing the super high cortisol... so ruled that the adrenal lesion was just "incidental" and "not biologically active"...
9. Now new PCP has re-opened the question, basically saying, "hey, we know that the adrenal gland lesion isn't directly causing the cortisol elevation, and apparently isn't malignant... but we also know that it is inside the adrenal gland and obviously likely to be affecting the medulla of the gland - and the medulla is what controls the secretion of adrenaline which - in excess - can cause severe anxiety... so how about we look further into this possibility???"...And, BINGO, suddenly I'm getting new tests scheduled that are clearly designed to look at things like a more detailed CT Scan, more blood work, some other procedures... all designed to see if the adrenal gland (tumor) might be secreting abnormal levels of adrenaline (and related substances).
On one hand I really, really hope that's the case and that - like with Cushing's - a surgical intervention can remove the anxiety and these various physical symptoms. On the other hand, I'll be ticked that this could have potentially happened as far back as late September and would have saved me further months of additional pains and agony....
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:47:41
> > Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
> >
> > I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
>
> If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.I had either a moment of genious, idiocy, or most likely this is just inane babbling. How about Chocamine? It contains PEA, it's reasonably cheap but it has caffeine so that could be a drawback if you're anxious already I guess. Also it contains tyramine but I don't know if that matters with a low dose of selegiline.
Could chocamine be a effective way to raise PEA levels?
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 20:17:00
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 16:40:56
Did you pay via PayPal?
If so you can file a complaint through them on even a small amount like that. From what I gather, PayPal is most of his business now so he has to be careful with losing them....
> > Let me know if you get any response from them as I am still getting no responses from e-mails or phone calls.
>
> Well I haven't heard back from them via email, haven't tried calling since I'm only out 5 bucks. I'll have to add my name as a dissatisfied customer, too bad because they have some really good prices.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 20:38:25
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
Sorry, I've read only the last few posts on this thread, so perhaps I shouldn't be responding, but I wanted to mention that I've read that vigorous physical exercise increases levels of phenylethylamine (PEA).
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 20:48:25
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 20:17:00
> Did you pay via PayPal?
>
> If so you can file a complaint through them on even a small amount like that. From what I gather, PayPal is most of his business now so he has to be careful with losing them....No, I used my debit card. I had a PayPal account years ago, maybe I should see if it's still active or open a new one.
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 21:03:06
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 20:38:25
> Sorry, I've read only the last few posts on this thread, so perhaps I shouldn't be responding, but I wanted to mention that I've read that vigorous physical exercise increases levels of phenylethylamine (PEA).
You would think so. I used to run quite a bit when I was younger and I've never had this "runner's high" that others get. I've had this discussion with my PCP and the new pdoc and they both agree my endorphines are messed up. They didn't mention any treatment though. My former pdoc was a runner and couldn't believe it, 1 of 100 reasons he is my FORMER pdoc.
I think for whatever reason my body either can't produce PEA or produces very little of it.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 21:21:22
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 21:03:06
Hi. Are you on any medications now? The reason I ask is, when I was on an ssri, I found that the good feelings I get after exercising were drastically reduced. Exercising was still better than not exercising at all, but most of the benefits were numbed. This was worst on Celexa and least on Zoloft.
Posted by gromit on March 28, 2005, at 0:53:53
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 21:21:22
> Hi. Are you on any medications now? The reason I ask is, when I was on an ssri, I found that the good feelings I get after exercising were drastically reduced. Exercising was still better than not exercising at all, but most of the benefits were numbed. This was worst on Celexa and least on Zoloft.
Hi. I'm taking selegiline, lamictal and trazodone for sleep. This has been with me my whole life but you're right, I do feel flatter on an ssri. The only rush I've ever got from exercise involved a skateboard, bike, skis or whatever and a vertical space to do stupid things. I'd like that in a bottle please.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:41:36
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
> > > Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
> > >
> > > I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
> >
> > If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.
>
> I had either a moment of genious, idiocy, or most likely this is just inane babbling. How about Chocamine? It contains PEA, it's reasonably cheap but it has caffeine so that could be a drawback if you're anxious already I guess. Also it contains tyramine but I don't know if that matters with a low dose of selegiline.
>
> Could chocamine be a effective way to raise PEA levels?
>
>
> RickChocamine. Cute. First time I've heard of a chocolate extract. I was actually surprised one hasn't been on the market for many years already.
I wouldn't hazard to guess how you'd feel on this stuff, other than buzzy and activated.
If you're after PEA, I don't think you can beat D-phenylalanine. It's the direct precursor, and the enzyme that makes it is readily available. Supply of precursor + active enzyme --> high yield of product.
Lar
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