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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KaraS on November 13, 2004, at 18:48:59
I'm considering taking a small amount of DHEA for motivation. I'm thinking it might also help a little with hot flashes. I'm worried about taking hormones at all but I could really use the boost right now. I'm also worried about it causing my uterine fibroids (which have shrunk way down) to start growning again (not to mention problems with acne). I am thinking of taking it for a short while only. The last time I was tested my levels were low. Any thoughts?
Posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 9:33:16
In reply to DHEA for motivation, posted by KaraS on November 13, 2004, at 18:48:59
> I'm considering taking a small amount of DHEA for motivation. I'm thinking it might also help a little with hot flashes. I'm worried about taking hormones at all but I could really use the boost right now. I'm also worried about it causing my uterine fibroids (which have shrunk way down) to start growning again (not to mention problems with acne). I am thinking of taking it for a short while only. The last time I was tested my levels were low. Any thoughts?
I took 25 mg of DHEA daily for years as part of a herbal women's formula, not really knowing what I was doing. I discovered it had really helped my mood when I accidentally bought the kind without DHEA. I also tried another brand's herbal mix that also didn't have DHEA and that didn't do a thing for me. That was all before I started supplementing with magnesium. Magnesium deficiency exacerbates DHEA deficiency, is my understanding.
A good article from Life Extension:
"The DHEA Debate:
A critical review of clinical and experimental data"
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_cover_dhea_01.htmThe interview with Suzanne Sommers in an issue of the LEF mag is interesting too. She has been taking bio-identical natural hormones throughout her breast cancer treatment. Gotta admire her courage to fly in the face of conventional wisdom for that. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/oct2004_cover_somers_01.htm
I've been taking a quarter of a 50 mg tablet when I remember which is probably only 1-2 a week. I'm thinking now that I might try upping it to 25 mg or maybe even 50 mg a day again, for a month at least, see how that feels. I didn't realize that fish oil caused acne until someone here mentioned it so now I wonder if I mistook some fish oil acne for DHEA acne. I don't notice any effect from the small amount I've been taking.
It may have really helped me with hot flashes all those years as I haven't been particularly bothered by them. I was having them at night for a very short while but I didn't pay attention to what I was doing differently -- could have been the no DHEA time.
I haven't read "Discover Your Menopause Type" but I ran across this site recently. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/questionaire/mtq.html I wish I had before I tried natural progesterone after reading lots about it, as this indicates I wasn't in a low progesterone state. It's a little hard to answer some of those questions as they imply a state of wellness before perimenopausal type symptoms that I didn't really have! "More depressed"...more depressed than when?? ;)
JL
Posted by KaraS on November 14, 2004, at 15:40:20
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation » KaraS, posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 9:33:16
> > I'm considering taking a small amount of DHEA for motivation. I'm thinking it might also help a little with hot flashes. I'm worried about taking hormones at all but I could really use the boost right now. I'm also worried about it causing my uterine fibroids (which have shrunk way down) to start growning again (not to mention problems with acne). I am thinking of taking it for a short while only. The last time I was tested my levels were low. Any thoughts?
>
> I took 25 mg of DHEA daily for years as part of a herbal women's formula, not really knowing what I was doing. I discovered it had really helped my mood when I accidentally bought the kind without DHEA. I also tried another brand's herbal mix that also didn't have DHEA and that didn't do a thing for me. That was all before I started supplementing with magnesium. Magnesium deficiency exacerbates DHEA deficiency, is my understanding.
>
> A good article from Life Extension:
>
> "The DHEA Debate:
> A critical review of clinical and experimental data"
> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_cover_dhea_01.htm
>
> The interview with Suzanne Sommers in an issue of the LEF mag is interesting too. She has been taking bio-identical natural hormones throughout her breast cancer treatment. Gotta admire her courage to fly in the face of conventional wisdom for that. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/oct2004_cover_somers_01.htm
>
> I've been taking a quarter of a 50 mg tablet when I remember which is probably only 1-2 a week. I'm thinking now that I might try upping it to 25 mg or maybe even 50 mg a day again, for a month at least, see how that feels. I didn't realize that fish oil caused acne until someone here mentioned it so now I wonder if I mistook some fish oil acne for DHEA acne. I don't notice any effect from the small amount I've been taking.
>
> It may have really helped me with hot flashes all those years as I haven't been particularly bothered by them. I was having them at night for a very short while but I didn't pay attention to what I was doing differently -- could have been the no DHEA time.
>
> I haven't read "Discover Your Menopause Type" but I ran across this site recently. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/questionaire/mtq.html I wish I had before I tried natural progesterone after reading lots about it, as this indicates I wasn't in a low progesterone state. It's a little hard to answer some of those questions as they imply a state of wellness before perimenopausal type symptoms that I didn't really have! "More depressed"...more depressed than when?? ;)
>
> JLThanks, JL
That was fascinating reading. I don't know that I agree with everything Suzanne Summers said but I also admire her quest for answers and her refusal to follow the traditional course. She turned out to be anything but a dumb blonde! I came away from the first article thinking that DHEA was a good way to go. I came out of the second article thinking how critical it is to be tested and get all hormones in the body balanced. As soon as I have health insurance, I'm going to do that. There are some excellent doctors around where I live who have a great combination of traditional and holistic backgrounds.
I took the test and I scored low on estrogen and testosterone but ok on progesterone. Like you, I wonder how accurate my results are. My depression, though always present, varies at times in terms of degree, and has for my entire adult life regardless of menopausal issues. I laughed when you wrote "More depressed"...more depressed than when??" Exactly!
On the whole, though, I think it might be worth trying a little bit of DHEA. It metabolizes to estrogen and testosterone if I'm not mistaken so perhaps it won't create too much of an inbalance by taking it (or at least it may not make any inbalances worse). I like that it also plays a beneficial role with regard to the thyroid, immune function and insulin sensitivity - all major issues for me. (My luck I'll take it and it will do wonderful things for me but it will bring back my acne problems and I'll give it up.)
I tried a small dose of 7-keto DHEA a couple of years ago but it did absolutely nothing for me. I didn't even notice increased energy as it is purported to create. After taking it for about 6 weeks it started to make me feel sick. At any rate, it didn't provide the estrogen or testosterone so the regular DHEA will probably be a completely different experience.
I'll let you know how I'm doing on the DHEA once I start it. (I may wait until after I've tried the selegiline + DLPA though). Let me know how you fare with increasing your dosage and taking it regularly. As for the acne from fish oil, that doesn't seem to be a side effect that the majority of people get. The ones who did report that side effect were all women though (if I remember correctly). I am going to increase my fish oil dosage a little and see what happens. After all of those posts about fish oil and acne, I remembered that many years ago I saw a holistic doctor who put me on a lot of fish oil - very high quality stuff - and I didn't develop that acne. It was only later in my own trials (several of them) with fish oil and flax seed oil that I developed that problem. Perhaps the stuff I have now won't have that effect. I probably should try increasing dosage at a different time than the DHEA otherwise I won't know which (or both?) is causing the acne if I get it. I guess I'll have to balance my need to function immediately with my need to know what is working.
I may also increase my calcium and magnesium. I'm currently taking about 333 mg. of calcium a day with about half of that amount of magnesium oxide (I'm just finishing up the old stuff I had). To that I've been supplementing with 125 mg. of magnesium taurate. Now I think I'll go to about 500-667 mg. of calcium and I'll take about an equivalent amount of magnesium - some in taurate form and the rest in citrate or malate form. I think I'll try that for a while and then eventually try 1000-1200 mg. of calcium though I'm conflicted as to whether I really need that much. Your posts (if I'm not mistaken) suggested that a 1:1 ratio is probably better than the current thinking of 2:1 cal to mag. In that case, do you think that 1000-1200 of magnesium a day is ok to balance the calcium with?
Anyway, thanks again for posting those articles and about your experience with DHEA.
Kara
Posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 17:26:40
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation » JLx, posted by KaraS on November 14, 2004, at 15:40:20
> Thanks, JL
>
> I came away from the first article thinking that DHEA was a good way to go. I came out of the second article thinking how critical it is to be tested and get all hormones in the body balanced. As soon as I have health insurance, I'm going to do that. There are some excellent doctors around where I live who have a great combination of traditional and holistic backgrounds.That's great that you will have that option. Even if I had insurance, I'm not sure who I would go to provided I had a choice, that is. I think testing is definitely the way to go.
> I took the test and I scored low on estrogen and testosterone but ok on progesterone. Like you, I wonder how accurate my results are. My depression, though always present, varies at times in terms of degree, and has for my entire adult life regardless of menopausal issues.
Yes, me too, but I did notice more of a sense of feeling "out of balance" with actual menopause creeping up. My older sister said it reminded her of those old variety acts where people would balance plates on a stick...and they'd wobble all over the place spinning madly.
I think that questionnaire looks fairly accurate in the way it breaks down the question categories, such as the last group being about testosterone apparently. I fooled around with it some answering differently to see which questions pertained to which. I did try progesterone before I found that and aside from one very tantalizing day when I actually had spring-in-my-step energy, it made me feel terrible. I wonder if I just took much less if it might be helpful though. <sigh> Hormones are a whole 'nother level of bewilderment.
> On the whole, though, I think it might be worth trying a little bit of DHEA. It metabolizes to estrogen and testosterone if I'm not mistaken so perhaps it won't create too much of an inbalance by taking it (or at least it may not make any inbalances worse). I like that it also plays a beneficial role with regard to the thyroid, immune function and insulin sensitivity - all major issues for me. (My luck I'll take it and it will do wonderful things for me but it will bring back my acne problems and I'll give it up.)
My acne was mild really. I have not noticed the kind of estrogen boost that I have had from say, maca, for instance, so I wonder if DHEA really does boost estrogen much. Maca is supposed to be an adaptogen but I have this lump on the bottom of my breast tissue just where the underneath bra area is that really swelled while I was on the maca. I am assuming this is a cyst as they wax and wane with estrogen levels from periods, which this did too, but it really did with maca. So I haven't taken that again.
I feel confident it boosts testosterone because I really noticed the libido effect. Other than that I found the effects kind of mild, although that again is compared to what? No telling how I might have felt all those years without it. Before I started taking magnesium, DHEA was the ONLY thing that I could actually tell a positive effect from.
> I'll let you know how I'm doing on the DHEA once I start it. (I may wait until after I've tried the selegiline + DLPA though). Let me know how you fare with increasing your dosage and taking it regularly.I will.
>As for the acne from fish oil, that doesn't seem to be a side effect that the majority of people get. The ones who did report that side effect were all women though (if I remember correctly).
Just my luck! ;)
>I am going to increase my fish oil dosage a little and see what happens. After all of those posts about fish oil and acne, I remembered that many years ago I saw a holistic doctor who put me on a lot of fish oil - very high quality stuff - and I didn't develop that acne. It was only later in my own trials (several of them) with fish oil and flax seed oil that I developed that problem. Perhaps the stuff I have now won't have that effect. I probably should try increasing dosage at a different time than the DHEA otherwise I won't know which (or both?) is causing the acne if I get it. I guess I'll have to balance my need to function immediately with my need to know what is working.
Well, that's the problem I have too. My tendency is to throw everything in at once and hope to sort it out later. :) I've been taking a cheap brand of fish oil and am thinking I am going to order some new stuff. There's a kind by Country Life now that has an EPA ratio of 5:1, which is pretty close to the Omega-Brite brand's 7:1. For some reason I bought some high DHA type that I am pretty sure does not help and may make me feel worse. So, now I am anxious to try the high EPA and it would be great if I can take less overall and then not get the acne. (It's an itchy kind of acne!)
> I may also increase my calcium and magnesium. I'm currently taking about 333 mg. of calcium a day with about half of that amount of magnesium oxide (I'm just finishing up the old stuff I had). To that I've been supplementing with 125 mg. of magnesium taurate. Now I think I'll go to about 500-667 mg. of calcium and I'll take about an equivalent amount of magnesium - some in taurate form and the rest in citrate or malate form. I think I'll try that for a while and then eventually try 1000-1200 mg. of calcium though I'm conflicted as to whether I really need that much. Your posts (if I'm not mistaken) suggested that a 1:1 ratio is probably better than the current thinking of 2:1 cal to mag. In that case, do you think that 1000-1200 of magnesium a day is ok to balance the calcium with?
I don't know what the correct ratio is, if there is one. Most "experts" will say 2:1, but I notice there are 1:1 supplements available now and this article, and others say 2:1 magnesium. Dr. Michael Lam is an anti-aging specialist apparently:
http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/1999-No3-MagnesiumandAging.cfm
http://www.lammd.com/opinion/osteoporosis.cfm
My experience with calcium, as some others here too have had, is that it is fairly immediate in its "mental" effects so it's worth experimenting with. I'd suggest cutting out the calcium altogether for a few days or even a week or two, either with taking your usual amount of magnesium or more, and see how that feels. Calcium very clearly makes me irritable and magnesium is the antidote. My sister is just the opposite, calcium relaxes her and magnesium is too energizing. I think it's a good thing to know one's reactions if any, to both and from that determine a "feel good" individual calcium/magnesium ratio. If the concern is osteoporosis, then maybe try increasing the entire ratio and see if the good mental effect holds. Or maybe it's not necessary, I don't know. From what I'm reading, I think we've been sold a bill of goods with the whole calcium deal. Countries with high calcium (and high fat and protein consumption from meat and dairy) have the highest osteoporosis rates. So calcium isn't protective in those circumstances apparently.
> Anyway, thanks again for posting those articles and about your experience with DHEA.
>
> KaraI've started threads about this before and had no takers so I'm curious how your own experience might go too.
JL
Posted by KaraS on November 19, 2004, at 0:43:33
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation, posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 17:26:40
>
> > Thanks, JL
> >
> > I came away from the first article thinking that DHEA was a good way to go. I came out of the second article thinking how critical it is to be tested and get all hormones in the body balanced. As soon as I have health insurance, I'm going to do that. There are some excellent doctors around where I live who have a great combination of traditional and holistic backgrounds.
>
> That's great that you will have that option. Even if I had insurance, I'm not sure who I would go to provided I had a choice, that is. I think testing is definitely the way to go.
Sure would be nice to have that choice though!
> > I took the test and I scored low on estrogen and testosterone but ok on progesterone. Like you, I wonder how accurate my results are. My depression, though always present, varies at times in terms of degree, and has for my entire adult life regardless of menopausal issues.
>
> Yes, me too, but I did notice more of a sense of feeling "out of balance" with actual menopause creeping up. My older sister said it reminded her of those old variety acts where people would balance plates on a stick...and they'd wobble all over the place spinning madly.Good analogy!
> I think that questionnaire looks fairly accurate in the way it breaks down the question categories, such as the last group being about testosterone apparently. I fooled around with it some answering differently to see which questions pertained to which. I did try progesterone before I found that and aside from one very tantalizing day when I actually had spring-in-my-step energy, it made me feel terrible. I wonder if I just took much less if it might be helpful though. <sigh> Hormones are a whole 'nother level of bewilderment.
Very true and the more I read about it, the more confused I am. I read that Dr. Lee book on menopause but it seemed to have many contradictions in it. I don't know what to believe about it anymore.
> > On the whole, though, I think it might be worth trying a little bit of DHEA. It metabolizes to estrogen and testosterone if I'm not mistaken so perhaps it won't create too much of an inbalance by taking it (or at least it may not make any inbalances worse). I like that it also plays a beneficial role with regard to the thyroid, immune function and insulin sensitivity - all major issues for me. (My luck I'll take it and it will do wonderful things for me but it will bring back my acne problems and I'll give it up.)
>
> My acne was mild really. I have not noticed the kind of estrogen boost that I have had from say, maca, for instance, so I wonder if DHEA really does boost estrogen much. Maca is supposed to be an adaptogen but I have this lump on the bottom of my breast tissue just where the underneath bra area is that really swelled while I was on the maca. I am assuming this is a cyst as they wax and wane with estrogen levels from periods, which this did too, but it really did with maca. So I haven't taken that again.I had a wonderful experience with maca for a while but then I went off of it (as you're supposed to with this herb). When I started it up again, it didn't seem to do anything. I increased the amount a bit but still nothing. I probably should have increased the amount a lot but I didn't want to deal with taking a million capsules a day (not to mention the expense). How much of it did you take? Did you order yours from Whole World Botanicals? When it worked, I didn't have a single hot flash. I really miss that.
> I feel confident it boosts testosterone because I really noticed the libido effect. Other than that I found the effects kind of mild, although that again is compared to what? No telling how I might have felt all those years without it. Before I started taking magnesium, DHEA was the ONLY thing that I could actually tell a positive effect from.It would be nice to actually feel the positive effect. I am going to wait a little while before I try this. There are a couple of things I'm planning on trying first and I want to be able to tell what is doing what.
> >As for the acne from fish oil, that doesn't seem to be a side effect that the majority of people get. The ones who did report that side effect were all women though (if I remember correctly).
>
> Just my luck! ;)
>
> >I am going to increase my fish oil dosage a little and see what happens. After all of those posts about fish oil and acne, I remembered that many years ago I saw a holistic doctor who put me on a lot of fish oil - very high quality stuff - and I didn't develop that acne. It was only later in my own trials (several of them) with fish oil and flax seed oil that I developed that problem. Perhaps the stuff I have now won't have that effect. I probably should try increasing dosage at a different time than the DHEA otherwise I won't know which (or both?) is causing the acne if I get it. I guess I'll have to balance my need to function immediately with my need to know what is working.
>
> Well, that's the problem I have too. My tendency is to throw everything in at once and hope to sort it out later. :) I've been taking a cheap brand of fish oil and am thinking I am going to order some new stuff. There's a kind by Country Life now that has an EPA ratio of 5:1, which is pretty close to the Omega-Brite brand's 7:1. For some reason I bought some high DHA type that I am pretty sure does not help and may make me feel worse. So, now I am anxious to try the high EPA and it would be great if I can take less overall and then not get the acne. (It's an itchy kind of acne!)> > I may also increase my calcium and magnesium. I'm currently taking about 333 mg. of calcium a day with about half of that amount of magnesium oxide (I'm just finishing up the old stuff I had). To that I've been supplementing with 125 mg. of magnesium taurate. Now I think I'll go to about 500-667 mg. of calcium and I'll take about an equivalent amount of magnesium - some in taurate form and the rest in citrate or malate form. I think I'll try that for a while and then eventually try 1000-1200 mg. of calcium though I'm conflicted as to whether I really need that much. Your posts (if I'm not mistaken) suggested that a 1:1 ratio is probably better than the current thinking of 2:1 cal to mag. In that case, do you think that 1000-1200 of magnesium a day is ok to balance the calcium with?
>
> I don't know what the correct ratio is, if there is one. Most "experts" will say 2:1, but I notice there are 1:1 supplements available now and this article, and others say 2:1 magnesium. Dr. Michael Lam is an anti-aging specialist apparently:
>
> http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/1999-No3-MagnesiumandAging.cfm
>
> http://www.lammd.com/opinion/osteoporosis.cfm
>
> My experience with calcium, as some others here too have had, is that it is fairly immediate in its "mental" effects so it's worth experimenting with. I'd suggest cutting out the calcium altogether for a few days or even a week or two, either with taking your usual amount of magnesium or more, and see how that feels. Calcium very clearly makes me irritable and magnesium is the antidote. My sister is just the opposite, calcium relaxes her and magnesium is too energizing. I think it's a good thing to know one's reactions if any, to both and from that determine a "feel good" individual calcium/magnesium ratio. If the concern is osteoporosis, then maybe try increasing the entire ratio and see if the good mental effect holds. Or maybe it's not necessary, I don't know. From what I'm reading, I think we've been sold a bill of goods with the whole calcium deal. Countries with high calcium (and high fat and protein consumption from meat and dairy) have the highest osteoporosis rates. So calcium isn't protective in those circumstances apparently.I am not convinced anymore of the need to take so much calcium either. I think i'll go up to 600-700 mg/day wtih equal magnesium like Dr. Lamm recommended. I have taken 1200 mg. calcium per day and now 333 mg. per day and I have gone a period of time without taking it at all. I don't notice any difference whatsoever. I felt better adding in the magnesium but now i'll see if more magnesium will provide more positive benefits.
> > Anyway, thanks again for posting those articles and about your experience with DHEA.
> >
> > Kara
>
> I've started threads about this before and had no takers so I'm curious how your own experience might go too.It's funny how that works. I hadn't even considered DHEA for various reasons until a little while ago so then I posted about it. A couple of weeks ago I posted something on the main board about the differences between selegiline hydrochloride and the liquid selegiline citrate. Not a single person replied. Literally a week later someone else posted the same question and there were lots of responses. Go figure.
-K
Posted by tealady on November 20, 2004, at 2:24:30
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation » KaraS, posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 9:33:16
>
> I took 25 mg of DHEA daily for years as part of a herbal women's formula, not really knowing what I was doing. I discovered it had really helped my mood when I accidentally bought the kind without DHEA. I also tried another brand's herbal mix that also didn't have DHEA and that didn't do a thing for me. That was all before I started supplementing with magnesium. Magnesium deficiency exacerbates DHEA deficiency, is my understanding.
>Intersting, thanks.
I tried 20mg DHEA..but got pimples (I also got pimples from fish oil, took 3 months to acclimatize to 1 capsule, never could do 2)DHEA is supposed to go to testosterone and estrogen...with me its more testosterone I think...but I'm going to try 10mg a day sometime soon..have a script for..us prescription over here.
> A good article from Life Extension:
>
> "The DHEA Debate:
> A critical review of clinical and experimental data"
> http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_cover_dhea_01.htm
>
> The interview with Suzanne Sommers in an issue of the LEF mag is interesting too. She has been taking bio-identical natural hormones throughout her breast cancer treatment. Gotta admire her courage to fly in the face of conventional wisdom for that. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/oct2004_cover_somers_01.htm
>Have you read this one by Susan Somers..just came across it....
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mag2004_10.htm
As Suzanne relates in The Sexy Years, Prempro™ was still in vogue when she was searching for a natural means of relief from her menopausal symptoms. She describes what was, until all too recently, a common occurrence in doctors’ offices around the nation:
“I went on to yet another doctor, who came highly recommended. He asked, ‘Why do you want to take natural hormones?’ I said, ‘Because I want to take the hormones I’ve lost in the aging process, not simply take away the symptoms.’ At that, he patted me on the head and said, ‘THE DRUG COMPANIES KNOW BEST, DEAR.’”
LOL
> I've been taking a quarter of a 50 mg tablet when I remember which is probably only 1-2 a week. I'm thinking now that I might try upping it to 25 mg or maybe even 50 mg a day again, for a month at least, see how that feels. I didn't realize that fish oil caused acne until someone here mentioned it so now I wonder if I mistook some fish oil acne for DHEA acne. I don't notice any effect from the small amount I've been taking.
>hmm that might have been me, although quite a few others got acne too from fish oil to start with..maybe it cleared my testosterone receptors :-)
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 20, 2004, at 3:40:49
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation » KaraS, posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 9:33:16
oops see it's the same link
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 20, 2004, at 4:10:07
In reply to Re: DHEA for motivation » KaraS, posted by JLx on November 14, 2004, at 9:33:16
>
> I haven't read "Discover Your Menopause Type" but I ran across this site recently. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/questionaire/mtq.html I wish I had before I tried natural progesterone after reading lots about it, as this indicates I wasn't in a low progesterone state. It's a little hard to answer some of those questions as they imply a state of wellness before perimenopausal type symptoms that I didn't really have! "More depressed"...more depressed than when?? ;)
>
> JL
I got type 5 ..OK progesterone too..but then I knew that already from blood tests..so it might be accurate.
I always had too high progesterone all my life I suspect but try an convince docs of that one..now normal (mostly)Jan
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