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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ron Jones on October 5, 2004, at 19:01:52
New study from NIMH says that the brains of people with panic have 30 to 40% less HT1a serotonin receptors and a hyperactive T2A serotonin system.Activation of T2a eceptors causes the release of ne and dopamine.Activation of T1a receptors stops stops ne and dopamine release. Monkeys with their T1a receptors blocked act like people with panic.Blocking the release of ne stops panic.SSri drugs do this by downgradeing the t2a receptor.Fish oil inhibits the T2a receptors .SSri drugs upgrade T1a receptors.
Posted by raybakes on October 6, 2004, at 13:42:27
In reply to Big news on panic, posted by Ron Jones on October 5, 2004, at 19:01:52
> New study from NIMH says that the brains of people with panic have 30 to 40% less HT1a serotonin receptors and a hyperactive T2A serotonin system.Activation of T2a eceptors causes the release of ne and dopamine.Activation of T1a receptors stops stops ne and dopamine release. Monkeys with their T1a receptors blocked act like people with panic.Blocking the release of ne stops panic.SSri drugs do this by downgradeing the t2a receptor.Fish oil inhibits the T2a receptors .SSri drugs upgrade T1a receptors.
Thanks, that's really interesting! Knew I had to learn more about the sub-types of receptors!
I threw a few words into google to see what other conditions modify the 5ht receptors. Chromium downregulates ht2a receptors, that suggests a blood sugar/insulin link. Also testosterone upregulated 5ht1a, but estrogen and cortisol upregulated 5ht2a - the conversion from testosterone to estrogen (estradiol) can be slowed by fish oil too!!
Just wonder whether 5HT2a upregulation has implications for breast and prostate cancer (raised estradiol), type 2 diabetes and associated vascular, brain, kidney and eye disease - if that's the case, when treating the body's neurotransmitter imbalances, we should perhaps also look at underlying causes that may cause chronic disease elsewhere in the body?
Ray
Posted by linkadge on October 6, 2004, at 20:49:48
In reply to Big news on panic, posted by Ron Jones on October 5, 2004, at 19:01:52
I think that taking melatonin also increases the sensitivity of the 5-ht1a receptors.
Linkadge
Posted by tealady on October 8, 2004, at 22:38:33
In reply to Re: Big news on panic » Ron Jones, posted by raybakes on October 6, 2004, at 13:42:27
but estrogen and cortisol upregulated 5ht2a - the conversion from testosterone to estrogen (estradiol) can be slowed by fish oil too!!
>ahh..maybe THAT is why so many females seem to have trouble with fish oil..me included..can only get to 1 capsule daily(and that 3 months to tolerate)..even after 1 year, can't tolerate 2 capsules..acne and gas
> Just wonder whether 5HT2a upregulation has implications for breast and prostate cancer (raised estradiol), type 2 diabetes and associated vascular, brain, kidney and eye disease - if that's the case, when treating the body's neurotransmitter imbalances, we should perhaps also look at underlying causes that may cause chronic disease elsewhere in the body?
>don't think it's all that simple <g>. Estradiol and proabably all estrogens up or down regulate different receptors and bind or don't bind with similar receptors in different locns..I get lost , (yet again)
On the other hand with drugs that up/down regulate various neurotransmitters/ receptors ..you can be sure they are having other effects on various parts of the body..especially the liver, kidney, adrenals etc
> Ray
>
>
Posted by raybakes on October 9, 2004, at 16:20:54
In reply to Re: Big news on panic » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 8, 2004, at 22:38:33
> don't think it's all that simple <g>. Estradiol and proabably all estrogens up or down regulate different receptors and bind or don't bind with similar receptors in different locns..I get lost , (yet again)I guess things probably aren't that simple but i just kept seeing tumour necrosis factor alpha (TNFa) listed again and again as a major factor in most chronic diseases......here's some abstracts where it's listed for various conditions...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=153
45516http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9365189
Posted by tealady on October 10, 2004, at 22:36:33
In reply to Re: Big news on panic » Ron Jones, posted by raybakes on October 6, 2004, at 13:42:27
>>
>>if that's the case, when treating the body's neurotransmitter imbalances, we should perhaps also look at underlying causes that may cause chronic disease elsewhere in the body?
>>
Agree with this..that's the problem with the compartmentalisation of medicine, ..some good psychiatrists do...vey few unfortunately. Then again most endos(who one would think would be up on hormones) don't seem to have a great handle on much except diabetes and obvious "primary" problems ... To be fair I guess a lot is not yet known...
haven't found anyone interested in autoimmune at all.One cause of panic in females is over high levels of testosterone, and the panic appears to stop when the testosterone source is removed. Funny how testosterone affects some of us differently.
Also strange how the research and drugs appear to be geared to preventing testosterone to estrogen conversion, no?..as opposed to promoting the conversion <grin>. Had a look last week but couldn't find anything ...
Jan
Posted by lotus on October 11, 2004, at 2:31:00
In reply to Big news on panic, posted by Ron Jones on October 5, 2004, at 19:01:52
This sounds very interesting.Because I had panic, ocd(primary) and social anxiety.Now,he,my psy- doc prescribed Paxil,starting at 10mg,then 20, but I still had no relief until I hit 30mg.30 was the magic bullet.It eliminated all anxiety and associated depression.The only thing I can think of as to why it helped is that at this mg dosage it created enough serotonin to finally override excess ne and dopamine to provide a calming balanced effect.I have tried diferent ssri drugs including celexa,effexor (2 weeks), and lexapro and never had the same balancing effect.I haven't tried it, but I think Zoloft would probably have the same effect.Also I noticed when reading about celexa and lexapro,they have no anti-cholinergic(spelling?)effects,thus not as effecive as the the ones such as Paxil,maybe Prozac and Zoloft have.The reason I say this is that,one study I've seen regarding natural supplements to overcome ocd,is avoiding excess choline,or avoiding it all together.
Posted by raybakes on October 14, 2004, at 4:54:57
In reply to Re: Big news on panic » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 10, 2004, at 22:36:33
>
> One cause of panic in females is over high levels of testosterone, and the panic appears to stop when the testosterone source is removed. Funny how testosterone affects some of us differently.I think androgen excess in women is frequently an insulin resistance problem - there seems to be conflicting ideas about how insulin raises androgens - one article talked about insulin overdriving the enzyme that synthesizes androgens, and the androgen - estrone/estradiol enzyme (aromatase) not being able to keep up. Another thought that insulin reduced the production of binding globulins that transport the androgens, so making more free androgens available.
Just looked up another article, and it mentions another enzyme called 5-alpha reductase that sends androgen precursors of estogens, the wrong way - instead of going from androgen to estrogen via aromatase, 5-alpha reductase sends them to another androgen pathway, and these androgens inhibit estrogen formation in the ovary. Zinc, saw palmetto, riboflavin, fennel, nettles, fenugreek are all 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.
this product looks interesting..
http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/testo-calm/
>
> Also strange how the research and drugs appear to be geared to preventing testosterone to estrogen conversion, no?..as opposed to promoting the conversion <grin>. Had a look last week but couldn't find anything ...
Theres a new range of drugs to help with hormone sensitive cancers - tamoxifen inhibited the estrogen receptors, but now aromatase inhibitors are being used too, as estradiol excess is implicated in these cancers. Some recent research also implicates estradiol in prostate cancer - as men age, inflammation increases aromatase activity, converting too much testosterone to estradiol. So far the androgen DHT was thought to be the culprit, will be interesting to see if the new studies are accepted.Ray
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