![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 1:22:55
Scott,
I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
-K
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
> I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
Hi Kara.I was curious about taurine for two reasons. I got the impression from the posts here that it might suppress autoimmune responses or perhaps reduce inflammation. Although I am not heading with my full focus in this direction, there are some who have looked at pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes as causes of psychiatric illness. Also, my father has primary biliary cirrhosis, which is an autoimmune disease. I'm just keeping a lookout for anything that might slow down the progress of his illness.
On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem. I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
Hoping all is well with you...
- Scott
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 16:12:47
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
> > I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
>
>
> Hi Kara.
>
> I was curious about taurine for two reasons. I got the impression from the posts here that it might suppress autoimmune responses or perhaps reduce inflammation. Although I am not heading with my full focus in this direction, there are some who have looked at pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes as causes of psychiatric illness. Also, my father has primary biliary cirrhosis, which is an autoimmune disease. I'm just keeping a lookout for anything that might slow down the progress of his illness.
>
> On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem. I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
>
> Hoping all is well with you...
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Scott,
It makes sense to me that pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes could be causes of some cases of psychiatric illness. Does enough research exist on this topic to seek out? In terms of your father's illness, hopefully we can get stem cell research funded more (which I imagine could help a lot in a case like his).Glad to hear that the urticaria isn't a big problem for you. Wish you were having more success with the Zonegran though. Drug induced fatigue can be such a depressant all by itself.
I wasn't doing very well until a few days ago when I got a boost from my sister visiting. I also took a short vacation with her and her family. I was worried I might be a total drag to them but it turned out well. Sometimes just getting out into a new environment can help a bit.
KaraP.S. I could warn you when nice things are being said about you but wouldn't that ruin the surprise?
Posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 16:12:47
Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
tanks.
Posted by T-rotten on August 10, 2004, at 2:51:10
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
> Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
> Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> tanks.Anybody can give me some info? even redirect to a helpfull post?
Posted by guttersnipe on August 11, 2004, at 1:50:34
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression So?, posted by T-rotten on August 10, 2004, at 2:51:10
> > Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
> > Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> > tanks.
>
> Anybody can give me some info? even redirect to a helpfull post?Yeah, taurine seems rather effective for me, although it doesn't seem to have quite as much of an anti-depressant effect for me as an anti-manic effect. Too help keep me from getting too wound up, I also take niacinamide, which I've read helps to potentiate GABA (and which has a calmative effect for me), as well as a general B-vitamin complex and a general multivitamin/mineral. Fish oil high in omega-3 fatty acids has also been shown to be helpful for manic-depression, and my state of mind has improved a bit since I started taking the stuff. I don't tolerate magnesium supplements very well, but I've heard that they can be somewhat helpful. A few weeks ago, someone posted a message here saying that quercitin is an effective anti-manic supplement (having some effect on protein kinase C, if I recall correctly). I've seen quercetin in my local health food co-op, but I haven't tried it because the taurine seems to be doing a good job of keeping me out of manic or mixed states (knock on wood). If you search the archives here you'll find folks' past comments on all or most of those things. Good luck.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:29:54
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
> Scott,
> I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
> -KI've an interesting anecdote to add to the taurine tale. I was exposed to substantial MSG after consuming Chinese take-out without asking for the MSG-restricted version. Doh! I was feeling very ill from the MSG, when I suddenly recalled that an "antagonist" (used loosely) for glutamate was taurine. A couple grams of taurine, and I felt very well indeed.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:43:05
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
> On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem.
You sound like you're describing cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity.
Also, niacinamide would likely reduce the histaminic release responsible for the itching sensation.
> I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
>
> Hoping all is well with you...
>
>
> - ScottHope you're pulling out of the slump, dude.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:44:37
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
> Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression.
Yes, both are good for mania.
> And what could I add to it?
> Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> tanks.Fish oil.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 14:02:04
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:29:54
> > Scott,
> > I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
> > -K
>
> I've an interesting anecdote to add to the taurine tale. I was exposed to substantial MSG after consuming Chinese take-out without asking for the MSG-restricted version. Doh! I was feeling very ill from the MSG, when I suddenly recalled that an "antagonist" (used loosely) for glutamate was taurine. A couple grams of taurine, and I felt very well indeed.
>
> Lar
>
>That is soooooo good to know!!! Because even when you ask sometimes to have the MSG taken out, they still put it in there. I'm definitely going to buy some taurine for that purpose.
THANK YOU!
-K
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2004, at 13:51:18
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 14:02:04
> That is soooooo good to know!!! Because even when you ask sometimes to have the MSG taken out, they still put it in there. I'm definitely going to buy some taurine for that purpose.
>
> THANK YOU!
>
> -KWell, it is far from *proven*, but I'd sure like to hear other peoples' experiences on the subject. Maybe we should call it The Hoover Effect?
BTW, soy sauce is the original source for MSG....they analysed what was in soy sauce that made for flavour enhancement, and it turned out to be free glutamate, which precipitates out of solution as the sodium salt.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2004, at 13:51:18
Larry,
You said this to Scott in a previous post in this thread:
"... cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity."
Is that just a theory or is there some real evidence that incomplete digestion of protein causes urticaria? Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria? As someone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that. If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment, and might just explain my depression in general.
Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
Thanks.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 23:44:57
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
Larry,
Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 6:49:37
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
> Larry,
>
> You said this to Scott in a previous post in this thread:
>
> "... cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity."
>
> Is that just a theory or is there some real evidence that incomplete digestion of protein causes urticaria?It is a theory of the etiology of that particular type of urticaria. I like having a theory a lot better than the other alternative in this case, which merely assigns it the label "idiopathic", which is nothing more than the doctors saying "there's something weird about you".
> Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
> As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
> If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
> and might just explain my depression in general.
Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
> Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
>
> Thanks.
> -KI've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 7:03:07
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 23:44:57
> Larry,
> Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)Proteolytic enzymes have to survive the effects of stomach acid to be effective in aiding digestion. Protease only works at low pH. If your stomach acid is weak (called hypochlorhydria) or absent (achlorhydria), your own body's protease does nothing. By taking a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, you cover functionality at the different acid regimes which may be present in the stomach.
As an aside, GERD is often related to hypochlorhydria. The stomach is slow in producing the acid it needs, and it comes late, after much of the food is already passing into the duodenum. The excess acid is easily burped up into the esophagus.
Standard medical practise for GERD is to suppress stomach acid production in general, which only ensures that you will have iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and thus decreased protein digestion and reduced availability of vitamin B12 (which is essential in acid production in the first place).
> I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
>
> http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
>
> Thanks,
> KaraWhat I do not know is how likely it is that enzymes which normally function in the alkaline environment of the intestines (entera) can get past the high-acid stomach environment. Enzymes are proteins too, and are not treated specially by the stomach. It's all food to the stomach. Ideally, you'd take enteric-coated (not acid soluble, dissolves once reaching the entera, i.e. intestines) starch and fat enzymes, but uncoated proteolytic ones.
That said, I'd go with this product:
http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.htmlLar
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:21:38
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 6:49:37
>> > Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
>
> Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
>
Scott says that he only gets it when he takes certain meds. I'm not sure how that fits into the equation for him. I seem to have it everytime I exercise (unless I've taken a very long hot shower beforehand and the mast cells empty their load - at least that's my crude understanding of it). I have to take Zyrtec everytime I exercise (which isn't very often). It really hinders me from getting exercise. I'll try the bromelain/quercetin, niacinamide and other digestive enzymes. It will be interesting to see if or how much they'll help. How long do you think before I'll see results? Actually, I'll probably try things separately to see what each does.
> > As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
>
> That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
Actually I think it's the sweat that the body reacts to, which arises from the increase in temperature.
> > If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
>
> Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
>
> If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
>
> The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
>
> > and might just explain my depression in general.
>
> Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
>
> > Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -K
>
> I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
>
> I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
>
> Lar
HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????Thanks.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 7:03:07
> > Larry,
> > Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)
>
> Proteolytic enzymes have to survive the effects of stomach acid to be effective in aiding digestion. Protease only works at low pH. If your stomach acid is weak (called hypochlorhydria) or absent (achlorhydria), your own body's protease does nothing. By taking a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, you cover functionality at the different acid regimes which may be present in the stomach.
>
> As an aside, GERD is often related to hypochlorhydria. The stomach is slow in producing the acid it needs, and it comes late, after much of the food is already passing into the duodenum. The excess acid is easily burped up into the esophagus.
My mother has had a terrible time with indigestion over the years. She lived on Maalox and Mylanta ever since I can remember, until the current medications came out. She's an extremely nervous person - I don't know whether that is really relevant but at least it used to be considered the cause of her indigestion problems. In the last couple of years she was diagnosed with GERD and she's really having a terrible time with it. She can't keep a lot of food down. The doctors have told her that she's not a candidate for surgery. They do something they call stretching her stomach periodically but it doesn't do much good. I'd be grateful for anything you could tell me to advise her.
> Standard medical practise for GERD is to suppress stomach acid production in general, which only ensures that you will have iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and thus decreased protein digestion and reduced availability of vitamin B12 (which is essential in acid production in the first place).
>
> > I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
> >
> > http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kara
>
> What I do not know is how likely it is that enzymes which normally function in the alkaline environment of the intestines (entera) can get past the high-acid stomach environment. Enzymes are proteins too, and are not treated specially by the stomach. It's all food to the stomach. Ideally, you'd take enteric-coated (not acid soluble, dissolves once reaching the entera, i.e. intestines) starch and fat enzymes, but uncoated proteolytic ones.
>
> That said, I'd go with this product:
> http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.html
>
> Lar
Lar,That was very sweet of you to select the brand for me. I felt bad after I sent that post - thinking that I was imposing and shouldn't have asked you for that. Anyway, please know that i really appreciate it.
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 8:30:56
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:21:38
> >> > Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
> >
> > Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
> >
>
>
> Scott says that he only gets it when he takes certain meds. I'm not sure how that fits into the equation for him. I seem to have it everytime I exercise (unless I've taken a very long hot shower beforehand and the mast cells empty their load - at least that's my crude understanding of it). I have to take Zyrtec everytime I exercise (which isn't very often). It really hinders me from getting exercise. I'll try the bromelain/quercetin, niacinamide and other digestive enzymes. It will be interesting to see if or how much they'll help. How long do you think before I'll see results? Actually, I'll probably try things separately to see what each does.I'm far from being an expert on urticaria or pruritus. Niacinamide should work immediately upon uptake, so about one hour lapse on an empty stomach? I don't know much about quercetin's mode of action, so I can't say anything there. Bromelain would only gradually show its effects over a week or two (unless it very quickly settled down someone's 'sensitive' digestion).
> > > As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
> >
> > That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
>
>
> Actually I think it's the sweat that the body reacts to, which arises from the increase in temperature.I'll have to ponder that. I doubt the reaction would be to sweat per se, but to the bacteria that thrive on it. Eau de locker room is a bacterial effect.
> > > If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
> >
> > Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
> >
> > If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
> >
> > The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
> >
> > > and might just explain my depression in general.
> >
> > Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
> >
> > > Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > -K
> >
> > I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
> >
> > I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????
>
> Thanks.
> -KI am gifted with a relational database type brain. I know where to put a new concept in relationship to others already present, and I can also sense if I don't know where to put something (ergo, when to start researching anew). The retrieval system seems to be rather efficient, as well. In contrast, I have a horrible problem with people's names (but not chemical names), and in the details of that particular person's life as compared to other life stories which I often misattribute (and again, I seldom mix up chemicals). Go figure. If it was the other way around (doing people better than chemicals) I'd probably be one of those social dynamos who knows everybody and everything about each one ("and how is your lovely wife Gail", to a man I met once, three years before, on another continent).
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 9:25:55
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
> > > Larry,
> > > Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)
> >
> > Proteolytic enzymes have to survive the effects of stomach acid to be effective in aiding digestion. Protease only works at low pH. If your stomach acid is weak (called hypochlorhydria) or absent (achlorhydria), your own body's protease does nothing. By taking a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, you cover functionality at the different acid regimes which may be present in the stomach.
> >
> > As an aside, GERD is often related to hypochlorhydria. The stomach is slow in producing the acid it needs, and it comes late, after much of the food is already passing into the duodenum. The excess acid is easily burped up into the esophagus.
>
>
> My mother has had a terrible time with indigestion over the years. She lived on Maalox and Mylanta ever since I can remember, until the current medications came out. She's an extremely nervous person - I don't know whether that is really relevant but at least it used to be considered the cause of her indigestion problems. In the last couple of years she was diagnosed with GERD and she's really having a terrible time with it. She can't keep a lot of food down. The doctors have told her that she's not a candidate for surgery. They do something they call stretching her stomach periodically but it doesn't do much good. I'd be grateful for anything you could tell me to advise her.I'll tell you my story, and maybe it will be a model for her self-care.
Like your mother, I used to live on Maalox (or so it seemed). I had a bottle in the car, a bottle in my tool kit, a bottle in the living room, the bedroom....
I was told I had ulcers, and I went on the bland diet, and took those old-time ulcer pills, and I still had reflux and I still had indigestion and I still drank Maalox.
That went on for many years. Later, doctors added the diagnosis of Irritable Bowel Syndrome, and GERD. I could never figure out which "trigger" foods I was supposed to avoid, so I just went on, treating it all symptomatically. (As a long-time trucker, you don't eat what you want to anyway. You eat what you can find any place where you can park a big rig.)
Along came the new class of acid inhibiters. I was put on Losec (also known as Prilosec). Finally, something that significantly helped. It didn't fix things altogether, but it reduced adverse events to around 20% of what I used to deal with. I still needed all those symptomatic adjustments, just much less often.
Along the way, after about four years on this drug, I took part in the clinical trial for Nexium (drugs were free, for eight months). As part of the screening, there was an endoscopy (showing significant stomach inflammation), a breath-test for Helicobacter pylori (I was never able to get that result, despite numerous attempts.... :-/ ), and routine monitoring. I was able to break the blind, as I knew I was in one of the two treatment arms (different doses of active ingredient). Part of the trial was designed to show if PRN dosing was effective, and I could feel the effects of the drug, without any doubt. (Anyway, you'll see major depression as a possible, but rare, side effect of Nexium. That was me. You had to remain otherwise drug-free during the trial.) The whole point of the exercise was to get a new patent for the same drug. Nexium is the s-enantiomer of Prilosec, which is no longer under patent. (Same deal with Celexa/Lexapro.)
Geez, I can go on, can't I? Get to the point, Lar. Get to the point.
Around about this time, I noticed that certain of my symptoms seemed to correlate with B-12 deficiency. As I was on a PPI drug (proton-pump inhibitor, i.e. acid blocking), that made sense. You need good levels of stomach acid to get B-12 out of your food. Your body stores (up to) a few year's supply in the liver, but that won't last forever, and....it looked like mine was running out.
So, I delved into the literature, studying the hormonal regulation of digestion. What turns on the acid-pumps? What signals the release of digestive enzymes? That sort of thing. I was so fascinated, I forgot to save any of the links, as I stayed up until dawn (whoa! I've been at this all night?!?), looking at leptin and grehlin (sp?) and pepsin and serotonin (yes, there is a link to serotonin....it's responsible for the ability to close the sphincter at the top of the stomach, to prevent heartburn) and such like.
Lo and behold, I discovered the makings of a vicious circle. In simple terms, the treatments for GERD "lock in" the deficiencies that cause GERD. I concluded that GERD isn't "too much acid", it's "poorly timed acid". The signalling for acid release is lagging too far behind the food, and the acid lands on top of the food (due to gravity) rather than getting mixed with the food, as it is swallowed. The intense acid concentration on top of the food degrades the surface of that mass, releasing gases which cause you to burp, and the burps are very acid. Ouch!
So....finally to the point. Yes, there is a point. Nutritional treatment of GERD.
This worked for me. No promises for anyone else.
At the point I did this research, if I was so much as two hours late with a Prilosec dose, I paid a price. But, I started taking these supps, and three days later, I didn't need Prilosec any more. It was that dramatic. I recently mailed a 6 or 8 month supply of Prilosec to somebody, because I don't need it any more (I waited a couple of years to be sure....I am a Scot at heart).
The point, Lar, the point. Doh!
I was already taking a B-complex, and zinc and selenium and magnesium. All factor in, so you do need those. The key ingredients that I added were bromelain (1,000 mg a half hour after each meal), trimethylglycine (1,000 mg, twice daily....doesn't matter about the food bit), and B-12 (1,000 mcg once daily, not sure if it matters about food or not). (These are acute treatment amounts. Maintenance doses, once symptoms remit, as required.)
Now, because my body was probably already replete with the first group (zinc et al), my rapid response may not be seen in your mother's case. Much of her symptomatology is, in my sometimes humble opinion, due to malnutrition. She may need a while to even get used to basic supplementation. The longer it's gone on, the harder it is to bring your body back from the edge. Nonetheless, after feeling completely and totally tethered to the drug Prilosec (I thought it was for life, like if I needed insulin), I broke that tether completely.
Your body may vary.
You may recall I mentioned Helicobacter pylori. If your mother has not been tested for that infection, she ought to be. The test is not very expensive ($80?), is non-invasive, and may indicate a treatable condition (antibiotic therapy) that can exacerbate indigestion/reflux.
> > Standard medical practise for GERD is to suppress stomach acid production in general, which only ensures that you will have iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and thus decreased protein digestion and reduced availability of vitamin B12 (which is essential in acid production in the first place).
> >
> > > I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
> > >
> > > http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Kara
> >
> > What I do not know is how likely it is that enzymes which normally function in the alkaline environment of the intestines (entera) can get past the high-acid stomach environment. Enzymes are proteins too, and are not treated specially by the stomach. It's all food to the stomach. Ideally, you'd take enteric-coated (not acid soluble, dissolves once reaching the entera, i.e. intestines) starch and fat enzymes, but uncoated proteolytic ones.
> >
> > That said, I'd go with this product:
> > http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.html
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> Lar,
>
> That was very sweet of you to select the brand for me.I also selected it for *me*, Kara. Thanks.
> I felt bad after I sent that post - thinking that I was imposing and shouldn't have asked you for that.
Why? I don't mind in the slightest. I am honoured, truth be told.
> Anyway, please know that i really appreciate it.
>
> KaraI knew that. You're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 13:47:16
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:21:38
> HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????
>
> Thanks.
> -KThat's what the foil hat does. I could show you the plans?
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 16:38:31
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 8:30:56
> > >
> > > I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?I don't know how your Scots personality would interpret the price so you be the judge:
> > > I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> >
> > HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -K
>
> I am gifted with a relational database type brain. I know where to put a new concept in relationship to others already present, and I can also sense if I don't know where to put something (ergo, when to start researching anew). The retrieval system seems to be rather efficient, as well. In contrast, I have a horrible problem with people's names (but not chemical names), and in the details of that particular person's life as compared to other life stories which I often misattribute (and again, I seldom mix up chemicals). Go figure. If it was the other way around (doing people better than chemicals) I'd probably be one of those social dynamos who knows everybody and everything about each one ("and how is your lovely wife Gail", to a man I met once, three years before, on another continent).
>
> Lar
I think your gift is far more useful than being able to recognize Gail from three years ago on another continent!-K
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 16:57:02
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 9:25:55
Lar,
Thanks so much for sharing your story about GERD and indegestion. I'm definitely going to send this info. to my mother. She's not terribly good at following through on things but it's worth a try anyway. I had a couple of other questions on what you said:
> I was already taking a B-complex, and zinc and selenium and magnesium. All factor in, so you do need those. The key ingredients that I added were bromelain (1,000 mg a half hour after each meal), trimethylglycine (1,000 mg, twice daily....doesn't matter about the food bit), and B-12 (1,000 mcg once daily, not sure if it matters about food or not). (These are acute treatment amounts. Maintenance doses, once symptoms remit, as required.)
TMG? Not betaine hydrochloride?
> You may recall I mentioned Helicobacter pylori. If your mother has not been tested for that infection, she ought to be. The test is not very expensive ($80?), is non-invasive, and may indicate a treatable condition (antibiotic therapy) that can exacerbate indigestion/reflux.
I think she was tested for H. pylori. I'll check to be sure.
> > >
> > > That said, I'd go with this product:
> > > http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.html
The Ox Bile extract in it shouldn't scare me at all?I was also wondering if taking these enzymes might cause the body to produce less of its own. Is there a chance of that?
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> >
> > Lar,
> >
> > That was very sweet of you to select the brand for me.
>
> I also selected it for *me*, Kara. Thanks.
Oh, good. Hope it helps both of us!-K
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 17:30:26
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 9:25:55
You wrote:
>(As a long-time trucker, you don't eat what you want to anyway. You eat what you can find any place where you can park a big rig.)
You were a trucker? My, you really are an interesting character, errr, I mean person!
-K
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:13:16
In reply to Re: quercetin and bromelain combined » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 16:38:31
> > > >
> > > > I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
>
> I don't know how your Scots personality would interpret the price so you be the judge:
>
> http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?follow-pro=1&vwcatalog=iherb&catalog=iherb&query=quercetin/bromelainThat'll be awright, lassie.
> > I am gifted with a relational database type brain. I know where to put a new concept in relationship to others already present, and I can also sense if I don't know where to put something (ergo, when to start researching anew). The retrieval system seems to be rather efficient, as well. In contrast, I have a horrible problem with people's names (but not chemical names), and in the details of that particular person's life as compared to other life stories which I often misattribute (and again, I seldom mix up chemicals). Go figure. If it was the other way around (doing people better than chemicals) I'd probably be one of those social dynamos who knows everybody and everything about each one ("and how is your lovely wife Gail", to a man I met once, three years before, on another continent).
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> I think your gift is far more useful than being able to recognize Gail from three years ago on another continent!
>
> -KBe that as it may, I may have to take up a collection for my aluminum foil costs. I use only Alcan brand foil for my hats.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:18:34
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 16:57:02
> Lar,
>
> Thanks so much for sharing your story about GERD and indegestion. I'm definitely going to send this info. to my mother. She's not terribly good at following through on things but it's worth a try anyway.Goody goody good. Maybe if you show her how my other advice turns you into Miss Dynamo, she will be convinced? No, wait, maybe she should take my advice, and you should get all excited.
> I had a couple of other questions on what you said:
>
>
> > I was already taking a B-complex, and zinc and selenium and magnesium. All factor in, so you do need those. The key ingredients that I added were bromelain (1,000 mg a half hour after each meal), trimethylglycine (1,000 mg, twice daily....doesn't matter about the food bit), and B-12 (1,000 mcg once daily, not sure if it matters about food or not). (These are acute treatment amounts. Maintenance doses, once symptoms remit, as required.)
>
>
> TMG? Not betaine hydrochloride?I'm coming to the conclusion it doesn't matter which one, other than the fact the hydrochloride will chemically burn your esophagus if it isn't taken exactly as directed.
> > You may recall I mentioned Helicobacter pylori. If your mother has not been tested for that infection, she ought to be. The test is not very expensive ($80?), is non-invasive, and may indicate a treatable condition (antibiotic therapy) that can exacerbate indigestion/reflux.
>
>
> I think she was tested for H. pylori. I'll check to be sure.I wish I knew my results. I do those antibiotics in a New York minute, but my doc says "no test results, no antibiotics".
> > > >
> > > > That said, I'd go with this product:
> > > > http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.html
>
>
> The Ox Bile extract in it shouldn't scare me at all?As in Mad Cow? No.
> I was also wondering if taking these enzymes might cause the body to produce less of its own. Is there a chance of that?I haven't seen any evidence of feedback regulation, so it doesn't look like it.
> > > That was very sweet of you to select the brand for me.
> >
> > I also selected it for *me*, Kara. Thanks.
>
>
> Oh, good. Hope it helps both of us!
>
> -KI need reminders. Ask my girlfriend. ;-) Nag me, baybee! That's one reason I love questions.
Lar
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