![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by TeeJay on July 18, 2004, at 18:30:50
In reply to Nicotiene addiction » Larry Hoover, posted by Indie on July 18, 2004, at 17:36:12
I smoked 3 packs a day for almost 20 years...god awful "habit" and one I have not done now for 18 months.
I did it with the aid of a book...Easy way to stop smoking by Allen Carr. Its dead easy to read and its intensely powerful, ie it unbrainwashes you while you continue smoking!! I chain smoked my way through the book and put out my last ciggy when I'd finished the book!
I've suffered from CFS, anxiety, depression and a host of other associated ailments for almost 17 years and stopping smoking is the biggest thing thats helped give me my health back. Its taken a long time and the first year I felt little difference (in fact at times I even felt a bit worse as my brain chemistry changed due to the lack of nicotine) but hand on heart, I can honestly say I *DO* fel better both physically and mentally for not smoking.
I couldnt recommend the book enough, and note how you HATE smoking (I did too). The book is the tool you are missing from your smoking cessation toolbox. Good luck.
TJ
Posted by Indie on July 19, 2004, at 8:34:11
In reply to Re: Nicotiene addiction » Indie, posted by TeeJay on July 18, 2004, at 18:30:50
Thanks for the tip TeeJay. I read the reviews on amazon and almost everybody said that they had the same great results except for a couple of people that said that the medical info was not accurate. I must admit that I am still highly sceptical but, given that the price of the book is less than half the price of a carton of cigarettes, I will give it a try.
Wish me luck.
Posted by TeeJay on July 19, 2004, at 19:04:10
In reply to Re: Nicotiene addiction » TeeJay, posted by Indie on July 19, 2004, at 8:34:11
Hi Indie,
You wont need luck, trust me. I smoked for 20 years and 3 packs a day is more than just a casual habit!! I was petrified to go ANYWHERE without them and got panicky at the very thought of not having them around me.
What the book does is makes you realise that its only the nicotine addiction that makes you feel this way and that in actual fact, there is nothing to miss by not smoking (although the nicotine convinces you otherwise).
Once you get your head around the fact you DONT NEED THEM then its a piece of cake.....the book dispells all the bullsh*t reasons we all give to keep us smoking like "it helps my nerves", "they calm me down", "they give me confidence" and dozens of other reasons to, and once its done this then you are left with one undeniable fact......you have no reason to smoke and not smoking wont result in missing anything. I was convinced that I NEEDED cigarettes in times of stress and was convinced I couldnt handle stressful times without them. I can tell you now that I have had some seriously stressful events since not smoking, including watching my dad die of cancer yet I got through it all without a single cigarette and looking back, I can assure you that I actually handled the stress BETTER without cigaettes.....this fact even shocked me, but the book was spot on here too!!
I'll stop waffling now anyway Indie....all I will say to you is this....read the book with an open mind (no more and no less) and you'll be a very happy and contended ex-smoker. Trust me, NOBODY ever thought i'd stop.
TJ
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 20, 2004, at 8:44:05
In reply to Nicotiene addiction » Larry Hoover, posted by Indie on July 18, 2004, at 17:36:12
> WOW. This Taurine sounds like a magic pill. With the effects that it has on alcoholism, is it possible that it would help with cigarette addiction?? I HATE being a smoker. I have tried all of the patch, nicorette gum, welbutrin, etc. Whenever I try to quit smoking it sends me into a severe tailspin. As I am severely depressed at the moment, making it worse is not a good idea!!
>
> Any thoughts??
>
> Thanks,
> IndieI looked closely at the topic, and you weren't the first to wonder. Experiments using lab animals were an utter failure, and I saw no human trials of any sort. Seems to be very alcohol-specific. That said, it may still have calming properties that might help during withdrawal, but not specific to withdrawal.
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on July 23, 2004, at 16:56:15
In reply to Re: Nicotiene addiction » Indie, posted by TeeJay on July 18, 2004, at 18:30:50
Hello -
good luck with the book - I tried it and it didn't work for me. Well, it worked for a week and then I was smoking again. However a week was the most I'd ever gotten to! Just don't be too hard on yourself if it doesn't work - you can still give up if you really want to (I haven't yet, so I do sympathize).>
I too am a cynical person, and very untrusting, so maybe that is why the brainwashing didn't work as it should on me.
Good luck with it!
Loops
I smoked 3 packs a day for almost 20 years...god awful "habit" and one I have not done now for 18 months.
>
> I did it with the aid of a book...Easy way to stop smoking by Allen Carr. Its dead easy to read and its intensely powerful, ie it unbrainwashes you while you continue smoking!! I chain smoked my way through the book and put out my last ciggy when I'd finished the book!
>
> I've suffered from CFS, anxiety, depression and a host of other associated ailments for almost 17 years and stopping smoking is the biggest thing thats helped give me my health back. Its taken a long time and the first year I felt little difference (in fact at times I even felt a bit worse as my brain chemistry changed due to the lack of nicotine) but hand on heart, I can honestly say I *DO* fel better both physically and mentally for not smoking.
>
> I couldnt recommend the book enough, and note how you HATE smoking (I did too). The book is the tool you are missing from your smoking cessation toolbox. Good luck.
>
> TJ
Posted by SLS on July 30, 2004, at 8:26:40
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 16:43:55
Hi Kara.
> Ironically, I just happened to read that posting from Scott
> (As an aside - he dropped my last post to him because I tried to get him to consider alternative treatments. I didn't have much hope of changing his mind but, since he was seeing so few options left, I felt I had to try - but I won't bring it up again. Hope he's still talking to me.)
You are a dear.
Of course I'm still talking to you! Silly.
:-)
Please don't confuse my lack of posting for anything else but a lack of energy and focus. First of all, I would feel cheated were you to give up on me so soon for not coming over to any "new way of thinking". I wish I were able to participate more on these boards. My ability to read and think is so very limited, I have to be prudent in the way I apportion my resources.
I stumbled onto this thread by accident while performing a search on Google about acamprosate. I was astounded that you were aware of the suggestions that it might prevent tolerance to stimulants. It was just approved today as the branded product Campral by Forrest Labs. I'm going to add it to my "toolbox". In what direction are you headed with Taurine?
Thanks for the kind words and warm sentiments. I'm only sorry that I might be missing more nice things being said about me all of this time. :-)
Hi Larry.
Love you guys...
- Scott
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 1:22:55
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by SLS on July 30, 2004, at 8:26:40
> Hi Kara.
>
> > Ironically, I just happened to read that posting from Scott
>
> > (As an aside - he dropped my last post to him because I tried to get him to consider alternative treatments. I didn't have much hope of changing his mind but, since he was seeing so few options left, I felt I had to try - but I won't bring it up again. Hope he's still talking to me.)
>
> You are a dear.
>
> Of course I'm still talking to you! Silly.
>
> :-)
>Good. I'm so glad!
> Please don't confuse my lack of posting for anything else but a lack of energy and focus. First of all, I would feel cheated were you to give up on me so soon for not coming over to any "new way of thinking". I wish I were able to participate more on these boards. My ability to read and think is so very limited, I have to be prudent in the way I apportion my resources.
>I should have known that's all it was since I often have the same problem. (I have since read many of your posts on the alternative board so at this point I don't even think that you're not open to it.)
> I stumbled onto this thread by accident while performing a search on Google about acamprosate. I was astounded that you were aware of the suggestions that it might prevent tolerance to stimulants. It was just approved today as the branded product Campral by Forrest Labs. I'm going to add it to my "toolbox". In what direction are you headed with Taurine?
>You were astounded that I knew about acamprosate? Me, the one who informed you about cholinergic urticaria? (Just kidding.) Actually, I had read quite a long time ago several posts by AndrewB and others on the topic of NMDA antagonists to prevent tolerance. I did hear that acamprosate was recently approved here in the U.S. for the treatment of alcoholism. (It can be easily purchased from Britain with a prescription anyway.)
Are you asking me about taurine to see if I'm planning on taking it to try to regulate immune function and thereby treat my urticaria? I wasn't planning on trying it for that reason. I was just intrigued by Larry's description of what it has done for him. It's not at the top of my list of things to try right now though. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Are you going to try it soon?
> Thanks for the kind words and warm sentiments. I'm only sorry that I might be missing more nice things being said about me all of this time. :-)
>
> Hi Larry.
>
> Love you guys...
>
>
> - Scott
>Love you back,
Cyberhug,
Kara
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 1:22:55
Scott,
I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
-K
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
> I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
Hi Kara.I was curious about taurine for two reasons. I got the impression from the posts here that it might suppress autoimmune responses or perhaps reduce inflammation. Although I am not heading with my full focus in this direction, there are some who have looked at pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes as causes of psychiatric illness. Also, my father has primary biliary cirrhosis, which is an autoimmune disease. I'm just keeping a lookout for anything that might slow down the progress of his illness.
On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem. I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
Hoping all is well with you...
- Scott
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 16:12:47
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
> > I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
>
>
> Hi Kara.
>
> I was curious about taurine for two reasons. I got the impression from the posts here that it might suppress autoimmune responses or perhaps reduce inflammation. Although I am not heading with my full focus in this direction, there are some who have looked at pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes as causes of psychiatric illness. Also, my father has primary biliary cirrhosis, which is an autoimmune disease. I'm just keeping a lookout for anything that might slow down the progress of his illness.
>
> On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem. I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
>
> Hoping all is well with you...
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Scott,
It makes sense to me that pathogens, encephalopathies, and chronic inflammatory processes could be causes of some cases of psychiatric illness. Does enough research exist on this topic to seek out? In terms of your father's illness, hopefully we can get stem cell research funded more (which I imagine could help a lot in a case like his).Glad to hear that the urticaria isn't a big problem for you. Wish you were having more success with the Zonegran though. Drug induced fatigue can be such a depressant all by itself.
I wasn't doing very well until a few days ago when I got a boost from my sister visiting. I also took a short vacation with her and her family. I was worried I might be a total drag to them but it turned out well. Sometimes just getting out into a new environment can help a bit.
KaraP.S. I could warn you when nice things are being said about you but wouldn't that ruin the surprise?
Posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 16:12:47
Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
tanks.
Posted by T-rotten on August 10, 2004, at 2:51:10
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
> Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
> Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> tanks.Anybody can give me some info? even redirect to a helpfull post?
Posted by guttersnipe on August 11, 2004, at 1:50:34
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression So?, posted by T-rotten on August 10, 2004, at 2:51:10
> > Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression. And what could I add to it?
> > Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> > tanks.
>
> Anybody can give me some info? even redirect to a helpfull post?Yeah, taurine seems rather effective for me, although it doesn't seem to have quite as much of an anti-depressant effect for me as an anti-manic effect. Too help keep me from getting too wound up, I also take niacinamide, which I've read helps to potentiate GABA (and which has a calmative effect for me), as well as a general B-vitamin complex and a general multivitamin/mineral. Fish oil high in omega-3 fatty acids has also been shown to be helpful for manic-depression, and my state of mind has improved a bit since I started taking the stuff. I don't tolerate magnesium supplements very well, but I've heard that they can be somewhat helpful. A few weeks ago, someone posted a message here saying that quercitin is an effective anti-manic supplement (having some effect on protein kinase C, if I recall correctly). I've seen quercetin in my local health food co-op, but I haven't tried it because the taurine seems to be doing a good job of keeping me out of manic or mixed states (knock on wood). If you search the archives here you'll find folks' past comments on all or most of those things. Good luck.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:29:54
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 2:39:36
> Scott,
> I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
> -KI've an interesting anecdote to add to the taurine tale. I was exposed to substantial MSG after consuming Chinese take-out without asking for the MSG-restricted version. Doh! I was feeling very ill from the MSG, when I suddenly recalled that an "antagonist" (used loosely) for glutamate was taurine. A couple grams of taurine, and I felt very well indeed.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:43:05
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by SLS on August 1, 2004, at 8:24:20
> On another note, since I reduced the temperature of the water when I take showers, itching has not been so much of a problem.
You sound like you're describing cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity.
Also, niacinamide would likely reduce the histaminic release responsible for the itching sensation.
> I am continuing with Zonegran for now, but it is not helping with the depression and is just producing additional fatigue.
>
> Hoping all is well with you...
>
>
> - ScottHope you're pulling out of the slump, dude.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:44:37
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by T-rotten on August 8, 2004, at 3:09:31
> Hello all! I was looking for TAURINE and foud it here. I just wanna know if taurine + Mg is Good for manic phase of bipolar depression.
Yes, both are good for mania.
> And what could I add to it?
> Anybody can halp me? (It isnt to me)
> tanks.Fish oil.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 14:02:04
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 13:29:54
> > Scott,
> > I just reread the old post of mine that you were referring to, where I asked Larry questions about his comparison of taurine to acamprosate from a previous post. So you were probably wondering if I were going to try to use taurine to prevent tolerance of stimulants. I was just trying to find out if it might have some of that effect if/when the days comes that I might need it.
> > -K
>
> I've an interesting anecdote to add to the taurine tale. I was exposed to substantial MSG after consuming Chinese take-out without asking for the MSG-restricted version. Doh! I was feeling very ill from the MSG, when I suddenly recalled that an "antagonist" (used loosely) for glutamate was taurine. A couple grams of taurine, and I felt very well indeed.
>
> Lar
>
>That is soooooo good to know!!! Because even when you ask sometimes to have the MSG taken out, they still put it in there. I'm definitely going to buy some taurine for that purpose.
THANK YOU!
-K
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2004, at 13:51:18
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression, posted by KaraS on August 14, 2004, at 14:02:04
> That is soooooo good to know!!! Because even when you ask sometimes to have the MSG taken out, they still put it in there. I'm definitely going to buy some taurine for that purpose.
>
> THANK YOU!
>
> -KWell, it is far from *proven*, but I'd sure like to hear other peoples' experiences on the subject. Maybe we should call it The Hoover Effect?
BTW, soy sauce is the original source for MSG....they analysed what was in soy sauce that made for flavour enhancement, and it turned out to be free glutamate, which precipitates out of solution as the sodium salt.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
In reply to Re: Lar...Taurine and mixed anxiety/depression » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2004, at 13:51:18
Larry,
You said this to Scott in a previous post in this thread:
"... cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity."
Is that just a theory or is there some real evidence that incomplete digestion of protein causes urticaria? Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria? As someone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that. If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment, and might just explain my depression in general.
Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
Thanks.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 23:44:57
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
Larry,
Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 6:49:37
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 16:42:00
> Larry,
>
> You said this to Scott in a previous post in this thread:
>
> "... cholinergic urticaria? It may be caused by incomplete digestion of protein in the stomach. You may benefit from e.g. bromelain supplements. It also has anti-inflammatory activity."
>
> Is that just a theory or is there some real evidence that incomplete digestion of protein causes urticaria?It is a theory of the etiology of that particular type of urticaria. I like having a theory a lot better than the other alternative in this case, which merely assigns it the label "idiopathic", which is nothing more than the doctors saying "there's something weird about you".
> Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
> As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
> If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
> and might just explain my depression in general.
Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
> Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
>
> Thanks.
> -KI've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 7:03:07
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion, posted by KaraS on August 15, 2004, at 23:44:57
> Larry,
> Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)Proteolytic enzymes have to survive the effects of stomach acid to be effective in aiding digestion. Protease only works at low pH. If your stomach acid is weak (called hypochlorhydria) or absent (achlorhydria), your own body's protease does nothing. By taking a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, you cover functionality at the different acid regimes which may be present in the stomach.
As an aside, GERD is often related to hypochlorhydria. The stomach is slow in producing the acid it needs, and it comes late, after much of the food is already passing into the duodenum. The excess acid is easily burped up into the esophagus.
Standard medical practise for GERD is to suppress stomach acid production in general, which only ensures that you will have iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and thus decreased protein digestion and reduced availability of vitamin B12 (which is essential in acid production in the first place).
> I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
>
> http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
>
> Thanks,
> KaraWhat I do not know is how likely it is that enzymes which normally function in the alkaline environment of the intestines (entera) can get past the high-acid stomach environment. Enzymes are proteins too, and are not treated specially by the stomach. It's all food to the stomach. Ideally, you'd take enteric-coated (not acid soluble, dissolves once reaching the entera, i.e. intestines) starch and fat enzymes, but uncoated proteolytic ones.
That said, I'd go with this product:
http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.htmlLar
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:21:38
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 6:49:37
>> > Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
>
> Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
>
Scott says that he only gets it when he takes certain meds. I'm not sure how that fits into the equation for him. I seem to have it everytime I exercise (unless I've taken a very long hot shower beforehand and the mast cells empty their load - at least that's my crude understanding of it). I have to take Zyrtec everytime I exercise (which isn't very often). It really hinders me from getting exercise. I'll try the bromelain/quercetin, niacinamide and other digestive enzymes. It will be interesting to see if or how much they'll help. How long do you think before I'll see results? Actually, I'll probably try things separately to see what each does.
> > As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
>
> That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
Actually I think it's the sweat that the body reacts to, which arises from the increase in temperature.
> > If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
>
> Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
>
> If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
>
> The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
>
> > and might just explain my depression in general.
>
> Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
>
> > Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -K
>
> I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
>
> I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
>
> Lar
HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????Thanks.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 16, 2004, at 7:03:07
> > Larry,
> > Also maybe I should take more enzymes than just bromelain (protease and papain?) to see if they can help with protein digestion? Should I also take enzymes that digest starch and fat? (I don't know if they would effect protein usage at all in the long run.)
>
> Proteolytic enzymes have to survive the effects of stomach acid to be effective in aiding digestion. Protease only works at low pH. If your stomach acid is weak (called hypochlorhydria) or absent (achlorhydria), your own body's protease does nothing. By taking a mixture of proteolytic enzymes, you cover functionality at the different acid regimes which may be present in the stomach.
>
> As an aside, GERD is often related to hypochlorhydria. The stomach is slow in producing the acid it needs, and it comes late, after much of the food is already passing into the duodenum. The excess acid is easily burped up into the esophagus.
My mother has had a terrible time with indigestion over the years. She lived on Maalox and Mylanta ever since I can remember, until the current medications came out. She's an extremely nervous person - I don't know whether that is really relevant but at least it used to be considered the cause of her indigestion problems. In the last couple of years she was diagnosed with GERD and she's really having a terrible time with it. She can't keep a lot of food down. The doctors have told her that she's not a candidate for surgery. They do something they call stretching her stomach periodically but it doesn't do much good. I'd be grateful for anything you could tell me to advise her.
> Standard medical practise for GERD is to suppress stomach acid production in general, which only ensures that you will have iatrogenic hypochlorhydria, and thus decreased protein digestion and reduced availability of vitamin B12 (which is essential in acid production in the first place).
>
> > I hate to ask you this but I was looking at the page on iHerb.com and I'm totally overwhelmed by all of the choices. Do any of the choices here stand out to you as a good selection(s)? I have no sense here or what is needed and what is overkill.
> >
> > http://www.iherb.com/digestion.html
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kara
>
> What I do not know is how likely it is that enzymes which normally function in the alkaline environment of the intestines (entera) can get past the high-acid stomach environment. Enzymes are proteins too, and are not treated specially by the stomach. It's all food to the stomach. Ideally, you'd take enteric-coated (not acid soluble, dissolves once reaching the entera, i.e. intestines) starch and fat enzymes, but uncoated proteolytic ones.
>
> That said, I'd go with this product:
> http://www.iherb.com/superenzymes.html
>
> Lar
Lar,That was very sweet of you to select the brand for me. I felt bad after I sent that post - thinking that I was imposing and shouldn't have asked you for that. Anyway, please know that i really appreciate it.
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 8:30:56
In reply to Re: Urticaria and incomplete protein digestion, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 0:21:38
> >> > Are there any other theories or facts about possible causes of cholinergic urticaria?
> >
> > Well, that's the only one I came across, other than idiopathic. I was also speaking to Scott directly, as I raised incomplete digestion in another aspect of Scott's personal experience. I'm trying to help him consider new angles of self-care.
> >
>
>
> Scott says that he only gets it when he takes certain meds. I'm not sure how that fits into the equation for him. I seem to have it everytime I exercise (unless I've taken a very long hot shower beforehand and the mast cells empty their load - at least that's my crude understanding of it). I have to take Zyrtec everytime I exercise (which isn't very often). It really hinders me from getting exercise. I'll try the bromelain/quercetin, niacinamide and other digestive enzymes. It will be interesting to see if or how much they'll help. How long do you think before I'll see results? Actually, I'll probably try things separately to see what each does.I'm far from being an expert on urticaria or pruritus. Niacinamide should work immediately upon uptake, so about one hour lapse on an empty stomach? I don't know much about quercetin's mode of action, so I can't say anything there. Bromelain would only gradually show its effects over a week or two (unless it very quickly settled down someone's 'sensitive' digestion).
> > > As so0meone who itches like crazy every time I try to exercise, I'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that.
> >
> > That specific sub-type of urticaria is believed to be caused by an increase in body core temperature, if I recall what I read about the syndrome. They recommend antihistamines for that, but as we all know, I've been pushing niacinamide. ;-)
>
>
> Actually I think it's the sweat that the body reacts to, which arises from the increase in temperature.I'll have to ponder that. I doubt the reaction would be to sweat per se, but to the bacteria that thrive on it. Eau de locker room is a bacterial effect.
> > > If, in fact, the cause is undigested protein, then that might also account for the fact that I don't respond to amino acid precursor treatment,
> >
> > Not necessarily. Amino acids bypass digestion altogether, being pre-digested, if you will. Undigested protein has two aspects to consider. The first is simply that amino acid uptake is reduced, sometimes to critical levels (and that reduction impedes the process of digestion itself, one of those vicious circle thingies). The other is that those protein fragments can enter the blood, and wreak havoc inside our bodies.
> >
> > If you read standard medical texts, you'll read that proteins cannot enter the blood from the gut. Only aminos can do that. Bollocks.
> >
> > The contents of the gut are outside the body (we are elongated toruses, a little more complex than a drinking straw in shape, but hollow tubes nonetheless). Nevertheless, contact with infinitessimal amounts of e.g. peanut protein can kill sensitized people, and in minutes. There are protein fragments from milk which exactly mimic endogenous opioid structure, and those chemicals are often found in high concentration in cheese. In fact, I have found food science research papers showing that those milk-based opioid concentrations are artificially maximized in some processed cheeses. Bromelain is a protein of about 118,000 daltons (a dalton is the weight of one hydrogen atom, and most aminos are no more than a couple hundred daltons), which is to say, a fairly complex protein, and it can enter the blood intact *in healthy individuals*. I emphasize the latter, as I'm not even considering what is called "leaky gut syndrome", or the atrophic effects of e.g. celiac sprue. But I digress.
> >
> > > and might just explain my depression in general.
> >
> > Yes, or at least, represents an angle at self-care to minimize the effects of this factor.
> >
> > > Also, I have quercetin/bromelain capsules here at home. I'm wondering how much to take for allergy and digestion. Each capsule contains 250 mg. of quercetin and 125 mg. of bromelain.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > -K
> >
> > I've never seen them combined like that before. Are they expensive?
> >
> > I don't know if there's an upper limit on quercetin, but I'll take 2,000 mg of bromelain on its own.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF????
>
> Thanks.
> -KI am gifted with a relational database type brain. I know where to put a new concept in relationship to others already present, and I can also sense if I don't know where to put something (ergo, when to start researching anew). The retrieval system seems to be rather efficient, as well. In contrast, I have a horrible problem with people's names (but not chemical names), and in the details of that particular person's life as compared to other life stories which I often misattribute (and again, I seldom mix up chemicals). Go figure. If it was the other way around (doing people better than chemicals) I'd probably be one of those social dynamos who knows everybody and everything about each one ("and how is your lovely wife Gail", to a man I met once, three years before, on another continent).
Lar
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