![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 68. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:24
> First of all, thanks Katia and Katy. I'll write more on all the recent stuff later. I'm doing much better, got in touch with alot of old pain. Not that that makes things magically better, but it helps with the self disgust part (I really OUGHT to be over this. I really SHOULD get my act together, blah blah).
>
> But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question. I tried it last year and before going into the why of why it didn't work, my humble opinion is that it don't work!
>
> I too saw many of the very intriguing ads, and hoping to minimize the side effects of lithium (primarily thyroid related), I wanted to believe that much less was needed due to the more efficient orotic acid transporter.
>
> I ordered a couple bottles for $30 a pop thinking to give it a try. In the meantime, my pharmacy mail order for lithium got lost, needed authorization and I ended out of lithium for almost 2 weeks. I started to get definitely hypomanic. At first, it was just more energy, more of a sense of urgency, plans whizzing through my head. I decided to totally re-landscape our yard and went out and bought literally palletts of plants, all kinds of gardening tools and clothing, books, landscaping software. Having a great old time spending lots of money we didn't have and making plans and then getting home and not having one whit of interest in the un-fun part, like unloading the plants, watering them, digging the holes, until they withered.
>
> My husband pointed out to me that I was seeming a trifle scattered and I thought, slapping my forehead, Ah yes! No lithium! That very day, my shipment of Lithium Orotate arrived that I had recently ordered and I was convinced in true BP fasion that this was surely a sign from God. So I took it faithfully and got worse and worse. Even once my prescription arrived I held off, thinking that I had to give Li Orotate a fair chance. I even doubled it and kept getting worse. By 2 weeks later, I was in full blown mixed states depression, sobbing every time I passed by those pathetic plants. So I went back to good old Lithium carbonate and within 1 week I was back to 'normal'.
>
> There's alot to argue here, like maybe I should've started taking it when I was stable first instead of already heading into a mania, or maybe I should've given it some more time, or maybe it really was the Li Orotate kicking in around the same time I restarted my old prescription. But I really don't think so. I think it just doesn't work the way they say it does, especially for people with BP illness. Perhaps it's good for the neuro protective qualities for people without BP, but not for us.
>
> There have been some recent posts on this topic about two months ago. Try doing a search on it. Some babblers well versed in the biochemistry of it gave it a thumbs down. Thanks to you for caring about me. We live very interesting lives. - Barbara
>
>
> > Have you or your clinic ever heard of Lithium Orotate? There are some posting on here about it, but nothing I coming from research or "doctors" (not that that ultimately matters). Just wondering what you've heard about it - it could be something for both of us actually.
> > I asked my pdoc about it and he had never used it or I dont think he's even heard of it. So I don't really want to be his guinea pig. I'd like to hear from other people's doctors.
> > thanks./
> > Katia
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 14, 2003, at 8:59:17
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
[Posted by katia on September 13, 2003, at 16:22:46
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030912/msgs/259705.html]
>
> Li Orotate is alternative? i didn't know that. This is a bit confusing.
>
> > > But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question...
> >
> > I'd like to redirect that aspect of this thread to the new Psycho-Babble Alternative board. Here's a link:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/259704.html
> >
> > Bob
>
>
Posted by Rob25 on September 30, 2003, at 14:59:21
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
Lithium orotate works very well for me in completely managing my bipolar disorder. You had posted that:
> But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question.
> I think it just doesn't work the way they say it does, especially for people with BP illness. Perhaps it's >good for the neuro protective qualities for people without BP, but not for us.
I'm interested in this topic because of my experience with lithium orotate. I'm interested in hearing who it does not work for and wondering what the different factors involved are. It does work extremely well for me. I would have possibly ventured a guess that maybe it doesn't work for those who have previously been on Rx lithium, since that was your case. Except the friend of ours who told me about lithium orotate had swtiched from lithium carbonate straight to lithium orotate. She is also doing very well, which is why she recommended it to me.I was not doing particularly well on anything. I have a long history with this illness. I'd been on a number of med cocktails. When I began on lithium orotate, I had been on depakote and wellbutrin. Of everthing I have taken, lithium orotate has worked the best for me. Maybe I'm more sensitive to side effects or something and some of those other meds would have worked fine if I had been able to tolerate the side effects. I'm not sure.
Anyway, I'm just interested in what the different factors involved are that make a difference because I know that lithium orotate can work extremely well. Is BP subtype a factor? I am BPII but our friend is BPI. What other factors might be involved I wonder? Of course, the bottom line on all this stuff is that we are all different and nothing works for everyone.
The truth is, I'm gearing up in case one of our kids turns out to be bipolar also. We don't know anything like that yet, but I know it is a distinct possibility as my father was bp as are other relatives on his side. In case we have to deal with this, I was thinking that lithium orotate was the answer to the whole bp problem with it being so easy to use with the no side effects and such good results. I've always said I'd never put one of our kids through what I had to go through and with lithium orotate, they wouldn't have to go through all that. But then I see a post like yours where it just plain didn't work and I start to wonder why.
I'd be very interested in any thoughts you or anyone else might have regarding this.
Rob
--Sorry for the duplicate post on the other board. I just now noticed that Dr. Bob moved the thread to here.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 30, 2003, at 19:26:45
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
Re: Lithium Orotate BarbaraCat
Posted by Rob25 on September 30, 2003, at 14:46:37
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030912/msgs/259679.html
Lithium orotate works very well for me in completely managing my bipolar disorder. You had posted that:
> But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question.
> I think it just doesn't work the way they say it does, especially for people with BP illness. Perhaps it's >good for the neuro protective qualities for people without BP, but not for us.
I'm interested in this topic because of my experience with lithium orotate. I'm interested in hearing who it does not work for and wondering what the different factors involved are. It does work extremely well for me. I would have possibly ventured a guess that maybe it doesn't work for those who have previously been on Rx lithium, since that was your case. Except the friend of ours who told me about lithium orotate had swtiched from lithium carbonate straight to lithium orotate. She is also doing very well, which is why she recommended it to me.I was not doing particularly well on anything. I have a long history with this illness. I'd been on a number of med cocktails. When I began on lithium orotate, I had been on depakote and wellbutrin. Of everthing I have taken, lithium orotate has worked the best for me. Maybe I'm more sensitive to side effects or something and some of those other meds would have worked fine if I had been able to tolerate the side effects. I'm not sure.
Anyway, I'm just interested in what the different factors involved are that make a difference because I know that lithium orotate can work extremely well. Is BP subtype a factor? I am BPII but our friend is BPI. What other factors might be involved I wonder? Of course, the bottom line on all this stuff is that we are all different and nothing works for everyone.
The truth is, I'm gearing up in case one of our kids turns out to be bipolar also. We don't know anything like that yet, but I know it is a distinct possibility as my father was bp as are other relatives on his side. In case we have to deal with this, I was thinking that lithium orotate was the answer to the whole bp problem with it being so easy to use with the no side effects and such good results. I've always said I'd never put one of our kids through what I had to go through and with lithium orotate, they wouldn't have to go through all that. But then I see a post like yours where it just plain didn't work and I start to wonder why.
I'd be very interested in any thoughts you or anyone else might have regarding this.
Rob
----
Re: Lithium Orotate BarbaraCat » Rob25
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 30, 2003, at 15:47:05
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate BarbaraCat, posted by Rob25 on September 30, 2003, at 14:46:37
Hi Rob,
It simply didn't work for me. I ran out of lithium carbonate due to my mail order prescription getting lost among other snafu's. After two weeks I was getting decidedly hypomanic and at week three my order of orotate arrived the same day as my errant prescription finally arrived. I decided to take the orotate instead because carbonate was probably out of my system, I was mildly hypomanic, and felt it would be perfect testing conditions, plus I just wanted to see because of my high hopes for it.I took 120mg Serenity 3x/day. Hypomania escalated for another week into a rather wacky mania that was alot of fun but very expensive - a thousand dollars worth of gardening stuff and plans for a major landscaping rehaul - this during a time when we were out of work and barely scraping together mortgage. A week or so later, now up to 2 pills 3x/day I began to descend into a nasty mixed-states depression. I gave it about 1/2 week or so but it became painfully clear that the orotate was not working. Mixed states depression is a place I never need nor want to visit again. Carbonate brought me back in 1 week and was definitely not the orotate finally kicking in. I know the differenc in how carbonate feels.
Perhaps I was expecting too much in asking it to put the brakes on an escalating manic episode. Maybe if I'd been on an even keel and slowly replaced the carbonate with orotate I could have eased into a successful transition. But the fact was, that when push came to shove it did nothing for me and I believe I gave it a fair chance - almost 3 weeks at double the recommended dosage. Maybe BPs need 2-3 times the recommended dosage, but then, why, if you're taking the same amount as carbonate at 3 times the cost?
One of these days I'm going to try to reduce and then quit the carbonate and am planning to bolster my system with orotate (I still have a few bottles left) before stopping carbonate. That will be another kind of test and hopefully I can sustain a therapeutic base with orotate.
Sorry if you mentioned this, but have you ever taken carbonate? Are your BP symptoms severe? Mixed states for me is a hell I would do just about anything within ethics to prevent. It is a psychotic nightmare and for me, I think I might need something stronger. But that's just me. - BarbaraCat
----
Re: Lithium Orotate BarbaraCat
Posted by Rob25 on September 30, 2003, at 17:16:14
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate BarbaraCat » Rob25, posted by BarbaraCat on September 30, 2003, at 15:47:05
No, as I mentioned I had never been on lithium before. Actually, my pdoc wanted to try me on it since I wasn't doing that well on anything. But the toxicity issue and the constant monitoring plus all the side effects people tend to get put me off. I seem to do poorly with side effects.
Am I severe? Well, I'm not psychotic where I hear voices, etc. But although I hate to say it, I made life absolute hell for my family. Although I'm so glad my wife stayed with me because I really love her and the kids, she could have (maybe should have) left for very good reasons.
Our friend who recommended lithium orotate to me though is BP and was often psychotic and does well on it also.
I hate this illness and I hate the thought of my kids maybe getting it. That's why I have to say I was disappointed to see that the lithium orotate was a total washout for you. The few people I know who have used it all have done well. Here I was thinking it was the answer that would help almost everyone. I guess I was being unrealistic because nothing does that. I guess I was just looking for the ultimate answer that would make it so my kids never have to go through what I went through or put anyone else through it. Maybe because lithium orotate worked so well for me it will also work for them because we will have similar conditions, who knows?
Rob
Posted by stebu on November 9, 2003, at 22:24:42
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
I'm diagnosed bi-polar 2 I take effexor seasonally and triliptal, I started lithium orotate for a resistant depression about 4weeks ago. Great results in 3 days on 280mg 3x aday. I was able to buy Lithium orotate for 200 @$12.00 at lifesvigor.com I haven't tried to titrate off any of my other meds and I haven't hit my seasonal high yet, but so far I'm pleased.
Barb Cat sorry for your recent experience ,with respect, and compassion, I think it teaches much about many issues, but it doesn't tell us much about lithium orotate. I'm not a believer yet, but so far, I'm impressed.
steve
Posted by stebu on November 9, 2003, at 22:46:14
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » Dr. Bob, posted by stebu on November 9, 2003, at 22:24:42
One more point BarbC Lithium Orotate has only 20% of the elemental lithium that lithium carbonate does,and everyone absorbs lithium differently ( part of why you need the blood tests)You can't compare mgs. of lithium carbonate to mgs. of lithium orotate because the carbonate has 20 times more elemental lithium. If you ever want to try again, why don't you work with a supportive pdoc from a stable place. By the way, I've killed my share of plants secondary to hypomania, and I've got this great 3 ton dam around a swamp that was going to be a lovely lake... Ah Spring!
Steve
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:35:31
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:58:58
[Posted by Michael Motter on December 21, 2003, at 19:30:23]
> I previously posted my abstract for this but had some requests to post the full article I wrote. I hope this can be helpful to others. Please email me if you have any questions. mottermx@jmu.edu
>
> What is Lithium Orotate?
> By Michael Motter
> Pre-Doc Psychology Student
> James Madison University
>
>
>
> About Lithium Orotate:
>
> Lithium orotate is a popular nutritional supplement that has been marketed in the United States under such names as “Serenity” (www.findserenitynow.com), “Advanced Research” (www.betterlife.com), and “Life Link” (www.nubrain-store.com) to name a few of the many brands that can be found via the internet. Many of these websites claim that lithium orotate is a natural alternative to mood stabilizer and antidepressant medication without any side effects. They claim that lithium orotate can benefit anyone who has migraine headaches, alcoholism, bipolar disorder, depression, or epilepsy.
>
> These claims are backed by the research of Dr. Hans A. Nieper, a German physician, who first studied the use of lithium orotate for migraine headaches, alcoholism, depression, and epilepsy. Dr. Nieper’s article The Clinical Applications of Lithium Orotate: A Two Years Study (1973) concluded that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for migraine headaches, alcoholism, depression, and epilepsy. However, caution should be exercised when interpreting these conclusions. His findings are based on correlational studies and the subjective reports of his patients. Dr. Nieper simply administered lithium orotate to 64 patients that had been diagnosed with the various disorders discussed and used their subjective accounts as evidence of its effectiveness. There is no control group in which he made a comparison to or mention of how he went about controlling for extraneous variables that could have also accounted for their improvement. Thus, we have no idea if it was the lithium orotate or some other factor that accounted for his patient’s improvement. Other research by Satori (1986) suffers from the same flaws. His work supports Nieper’s claim that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for alcoholism and migraine headaches. Again all evidence is based on subjective report and there is no control group in which he compares his findings.
>
> What is Lithium:
>
> Lithium is a mineral or more specifically an alkali metal that is present in the human diet in ultratrace quantities and is also found in some natural mineral waters (Physicians Desk Reference, 2003). The typical daily dietary intake of lithium is approximately 200 to 600 micrograms. Fish, processed meat, milk, milk products, eggs, potatoes and vegetables are rich sources of this mineral. In the United States lithium carbonate and lithium citrate are approved by the FDA for the clinical treatment of bipolar disorder (Food & Drug Administration, 2003). Carbonate (carbonic acid) and citrate (citric acid) are mineral carriers that transport lithium throughout the body. According to Yung (1984) many physicians have also begun to prescribe lithium carbonate and citrate for the “off label” treatment of migraine headaches, seizure disorders, and psychosis. It is important to note that “off label” usage is generally considered an option only after all traditional treatment methods have failed and it is not approved by the FDA.
>
> How it Works:
>
> Lithium is administered orally and is generally taken with food, although its absorption is not markedly affected by the presence of food (Physicians Desk Reference, 2003). According to McKim (2003) lithium carbonate, citrate, and orotate is administered orally and therefore it passes through the stomach into the gastrointestinal tract where it is absorbed by the capillaries into the blood stream. These minerals are then absorbed rapidly into the blood stream (80-100%). Peak levels in the blood occur between a half-hour and two hours with citrate and carbonate. Once in the blood it travels to the brain where it must cross the cell membrane or blood brain barrier. Lithium carbonate and citrate cross the blood brain barrier via active transport. Lithium levels in the blood need to be elevated so that there is enough of it to pass through the membrane in order to be therapeutic. Mckim (2003), reports that no one knows for certain but it is theorized that lithium ions concentrate outside of the membrane causing the potential to become less negative and causing depolarization. The voltage gated ion channels open which allow the sodium ions to rush in. It is hypothesized that the lithium ions replace sodium ions and cross through the blood brain barrier resulting in neutralization of the resting potential.
>
> According to McKim (2003) lithium carbonate and citrate therapy requires reaching serum concentrations of lithium that are close to the toxic concentration. Lithium Carbonate and Citrate therapy requires serum levels of 1.0-1.5 mEq/L for acute mania and 0.6 – 1.2mEq/L for maintenance. During treatment lithium serum concentrations should not usually exceed 1.5 mEq/L. Mild to moderate toxic reactions may occur at lithium concentrations from 1.5 to 2 mEq/L, and moderate to severe reactions at concentrations above 2 mEq/L. Serum lithium concentrations should usually be monitored 3 times weekly and blood studies and urinalysis weekly during the initial period of administration and periodically as required thereafter.
>
> Lithium orotate is administered orally and therefore it passes through the stomach into the gastrointestinal tract where it is absorbed by the capillaries into the blood stream. According to Nieper (1973) digestion breaks off the lithium mineral from the lithium compound when lithium is attached to carbonate and citrate which is then absorbed rapidly into the blood stream. Therefore, lithium orotate is coated with a special coating which supposedly protects the lithium orotate while it passes through the stomach acids. This coating protects the compound and allows it to be absorbed by the capillaries into the bloodstream with most of the lithium still bound to the orotate. According to Nieper (1973) the orotate carriers show a special affinity for tissues in which metabolism involves the blood brain barrier. Orotate supposedly uses passive transport to cross through the blood brain barrier. Because the lithium is still mostly attached to the orotate carrier, it diffuses across the membrane releasing the lithium to the other side and leaving little left in the blood stream.
>
> Nieper (1973) reports that a mineral analysis of his patients whole blood and blood serum found that lithium orotate does not cause the approximate level of 0.02 ppm lithium in normal blood or serum to be exceeded by more than 30% (0.026 ppm). Lithium carbonate contains 18.8mg of elemental lithium per 100mg per 100mg (57mg per 300mg, 113mg per 600mg). Most lithium orotate compounds contains 3.83mg of elemental lithium per 100mg (4.8mg per 120mg). Lithium carbonate can cause serum to rise an average of 0.2 to 0.4 mEq/L after intake of 300 mg and 0.3 to 0.6 mEql/L after intake of 600 mg of lithium carbonate. It appears that lithium orotate does not contain enough elemental lithium per recommended dosage to cause lithium serum concentrations to rise beyond toxic levels. This may explain why they claim that lithium blood serum monitoring is unnecessary. It also raises the questions whether there is even enough lithium to cause any type of therapeutic effect.
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that lower elemental doses of lithium can be administered when attached to orotate because most of the lithium doesn’t dissolve from the carrier until it passes through the blood brain barrier. Therefore, all of the lithium (theoretically enough to be therapeutic) goes to the brain and a minimal amount gets left behind in the blood. Thus the amount of lithium that enters into the bloodstream doesn’t reach toxic levels and doesn’t need to be monitored.
> Lithium is excreted via the kidneys (renally). It is excreted rapidly and several daily doses are needed to maintain the therapeutic level. It is not metabolized; approximately 95% is renally excreted (saliva, sweat, feces 5%). Lithium is excreted unchanged in the urine. Renal excretion is biphasic, with rapid clearance of up to two-thirds within 6-12 hours followed by a slower elimination over the next twelve hours. The overall half-life is between 12 and 24 hours. The excretion rate varies considerably among individuals and increases with age. Half-life in geriatric patients and patients with impaired renal function is increased to 36 to 50 hours.
> What Are The Side Effects:
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that because of the low amount of lithium in the blood serum, the common side effects of lithium carbonate and citrate which include: diarrhea, frequent urination, dehydration, lethargy, nausea, skin rashes, tremor, thyroid dysfunction, and weight gain supposedly do not occur. The low levels also claim to make it safe for use with antithyroid, asthma, bronchitis, cystic fibrosis, emphysema, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID’s), and sinusitis medication and diuretics which may cause interactions with lithium carbonate or citrate. It gives no mention of antipsychotic medication which can have interactions with lithium carbonate and citrate (McKim, 2003).
>
> Nieper (1973) claims that lithium orotate does not have renal side effects because of its low dose. However, research conducted by Smith and Schou (1979) found that kidney functioning and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given a intraperitoneal injection (2 mmol lithium kg-1) of orotate than rats given carbonate, sodium chloride, or a sham injection. Renal lithium clearance was significantly lower. Kidney weight and lithium concentrations in serum kidney and heart were significantly higher in the orotate group which may be caused by the lower kidney functioning. Smith and Schou concluded that lithium orotate was not recommended as safe for humans. Smith (1976) reports that the pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion given as lithium orotate do not differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate when administered in rats. Though excessive secretion of urine and excessive thirst developed more slowly in rats given lithium orotate than in those given lithium carbonate or lithium chloride. Lithium orotate is recommended to be unsafe during pregnancy and breast feeding. Lithium passes into milk and its use should be avoided during lactation as concentrations are 33 to 50% of those in the mother's serum (McKim, 2003). Several anecdotal accounts of lithium orotate were found on internet chat rooms claiming that lithium orotate caused depression.
>
>
> Comparison of the Different Forms of Lithium:
>
> An overall comparison of the differences in costs, research efficacy, and side effects between lithium orotate and lithium carbonate or citrate shows that there is considerable difference in these three areas. The cost of lithium orotate varies depending on the website where it is purchased. For ninety 120mg tablets of Serenity the monthly cost is $39.99 per month or approximately $0.44 per pill. Two-hundred 120mg tablets of Advanced Research costs $12.99 per month or approximately $0.06 per ill. One hundred 135mg tablets of Life Link totals $12.00 per months or approximately $0.12 per pill. One hundred and fifty 300mg tablets of lithium carbonate or citrate on the other costs approximately $25.00 per month or almost $0.17 per pill.
>
> Dr. Nieper and Dr. Sartori’s claims are based only on subjective case study reports. A search on the National Library of Medicine’s (2003) website indicate that there have been no double-blind controlled studies on the effects of lithium orotate for any medical or health related purposes. Thus the claims made by Dr. Nieper and Dr. Satori are based on weak scientific evidence. Smith (1976) reports that pharmacokinetics of the lithium orotate do not differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate when administered in rats. Furthermore, according to Garbutt, West, Carey, Lohr, & Crews (1999) suggestions that it might be useful in treating alcoholism are unfounded. Lithium is not useful for treating patients who have alcohol dependence without other psychiatric conditions. There is limited research on the effects of lithium in primary alcoholics without comorbid mood disorders. According to Picket & O’Dell (1992) there is no credible research to support the supplemental or medically unsupervised use of lithium for any purpose. There are no indications for the supplemental use of lithium. If lithium dosage is too low, you will derive no benefit. There is little research on the claims that lithium orotate is absent of the side effects that accompany lithium carbonate or citrate. What research has been done by Smith and Schou (1979) indicates that the renal side effects of lithium orotate may be more severe than carbonate or citrate in rats.
> Lithium orotate is not regulated by the FDA. It is marketed as a “dietary supplement”. According to Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994 (Food & Drug Administration, 2003) a dietary supplement is
> a product taken by mouth that contains a dietary ingredient intended to supplement the diet. The dietary ingredients in these products may include: vitamins, minerals, herbs or other botanicals, amino acids, and substances such as enzymes, organ tissues, glandulars, and metabolites. Dietary supplements can also be extracts or concentrates, and may be found in many forms such as tablets, capsules, softgels, gelcaps, liquids, or powders (page 1).
> Because it is not regulated by the FDA the claims that the various companies make about it’s effectiveness are not regulated by the government but instead by the company. A company is responsible for determining that its products are safe and that claims they make about them are substantiated by adequate evidence to show that they are not false or misleading. This means that the supplements do not need approval from FDA before they are marketed. Companies do not have to provide the FDA with the evidence it relies on to substantiate safety or effectiveness before or after it markets its products. In addition it is also interesting to note that Dr. Nieper has a history with the federal government. The 1994 FDA Import Alert states that Dr. Nieper was accused of importing numerous drugs into the United States without FDA approval (FDA, 1994).
> Conclusion:
> In conclusion there is some of anecdotal evidence that lithium orotate is an effective treatment for the various health concerns it claims to help. However, there have been no controlled research studies that validate these claims. Why Dr. Nieper never followed up his patients claims with more rigorous research remains a mystery. Is it possible that he was merely a “snake-oil” salesman trying to make a quick buck or is there something we are missing? It appears that many in the complementary and alternative healing community believe that there is something missing in modern medicine that does not fully address our health concerns. But even if this is the case and lithium orotate is beneficial, then it would seem logical to pursue further research. This would not only validate their claims but also reduce the risk of harm. Harm that has all too often occurred in the absent minded world of nutritional supplements, see ephedra and phen/fen.
>
> References
> Food & Drug Administration (1994). Automatic Detention of New Drugs Promoted by
> Dr. Hans Nieper of West Germany. Retrieved June 26, 2003 from www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora import ia6628.html
>
> Food & Drug Administration (2003). Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act
> (DSHEA) of 1994. Retrieved June 26, 2003 from www.cfsan.fda.gov
>
> Garbutt, J.C., West, S.L., Carey, T.S., Lohr, K.N., & Crews, F.T. (1999).
> Pharmacological treatment of alcohol dependence: a review of the evidence. JAMA, 281(14), 1318-25.
>
> McKim, W. A. (2003). Drugs & Behavior: An Introduction to Behavioral
> Pharmacology (5th ed.). Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall.
>
> Nieper, H. A. (1973). The clinical applications of lithium orotate: A two year study.
> Agressologie, 14(6), 407-411.
>
> Physicians Desk Reference (2003). Lithium. Retrieved June 25, 2003 from
> www.pdrhealth.com
>
> Pickett, E.E., & O'Dell, B.L. (1992). Evidence for dietary essentiality of lithium in the
> rat. Biol Trace Elem Res, 34, 299-319.
>
> Satori, H.E. (1986). Lithium orotate in the treatment of alcoholism and related
> conditions. Alcohol, 3(2), 97-100.
>
> Smith, D. F. (1976). Lithium orotate, carbonate and chloride: pharmacokinetics,
> polyuria in rats. British Journal of Pharmacology, 56, 399-402.
>
> Smith, D. F., Schou, M. (1979). Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats
> given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate. Journal of
> Pharmaceutical Pharmacology, 31(3), 161-163.
>
> Yung, C.Y. (1984). A review of clinical trials of lithium in neurology. Pharmacology,
> Biochemistry, & Behavior. 21, 1, 57-64.
>
>
> Further Readings
>
>
> Kling, M. A., Manowitz, P., Pollack, I.W. (1978). Rat brain and serum lithium
> concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate. Journal of
> Pharmaceutical Pharmacology, ;30(6), 368-70.
>
> Nieper, H. A. (1999). The Curious Man. Avery Publishing Group.
>
>
>
Posted by joebob on December 25, 2003, at 14:23:22
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate « Michael Motter, posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:35:31
orotate we might have some reports of the problems you mention, in vivo on human being i mean
do you have any.......i would much appreciate the info, have searched for and not found it
best
Posted by mysteryroad on December 29, 2003, at 21:06:59
In reply to i was hoping by now with all the people using the, posted by joebob on December 25, 2003, at 14:23:22
I rarely come to this board anymore because I'm just spinning my wheels when it comes to all this board talk..Meds are just barely useful for me and I have given up hope one will ever work properly..There are no answers..There is no reason that I can think why I should hang around this earth and suffer so..I listen to my roommate downstairs, who laughs day in and out, and enjoys life no matter what.. while you and I live in this black, colorless world..If I had no one who cared about me, I'd be outta here in a big way..
In the mean time, I'll just live this way, way, inferior life..I am on 1200 mgs of carbonate/day..Like EVERY med I have tried for bp/major depression, the side effects are unbearable..Besides my thyroid slowing down on top of it's already lethargic attitude, I have the worst jaw pain ever..It's with me all day and night..I can't stand the pressure in my head anymore..The good from the carbonate is that it has helped my sleep more soundly and kept me somewhat balanced..But I'm gonna have to wean off it now.Some things never change..
BTW, the ororate threw me into deep depression by day 2..If the stuff truly worked, it would be all over the airwaves..Hopefully it works for others..
M.R
Posted by stebu on March 8, 2004, at 21:52:06
In reply to Ororate=depression, posted by mysteryroad on December 29, 2003, at 21:06:59
I've been on Lithium Orotate since I wrote in Sept/93. My depression has not come back. I've been able to titrate off my effexor. This is the time of year when I become hypomanic. As I began to speed up my pdoc increased my Lithium orotate, and I responded right away. I do have a tiny blood level of lithium, and continue to take a small dose of trileptal. I don't have any side effects from Lithium Orotate. I think it's great.
Posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by stebu on March 8, 2004, at 21:52:06
Hi folks,
I'm new here ... I registered primarily to ask others about lithium orotate, and about bipolar folks' successes (and/or lack thereof) with taurine, tyrosine, B vitamins, magnasium, and the other stuff that some research suggests is helpful for bipolar (anyone into Vipassana? I'm getting back into it after years of neglect; kirtan too). To Stebu and others who are using lithium orotate under a MD's supervision/with an MD's knowledge: what do your docs have to say about the Smith and Schou (1979) study about kidney function? I have read a number of anecdotal reports that the orotate form of lithium often works (although not always) for bipolars, and I am aware that many MDs into holistic/alternative care are recommending it to their patients with some good anecdotal success rates, but I would hate to find out after taking it for a while that I've permanently turned my kidneys into jello or over-salted my brain.
I found out the hard way that Effexor is pure poison (for me, at least -- nearly 2 years of 24/7 mixed-state or dysphoric hypomania before I figured out, with no help from my psychiatrist until I suggested the idea, that the Effexor might be doing more harm than good ... same doc who failed to even screen me for bipolar even though the symptoms of my diagnosed GAD are virtually identical to a dysphoric bipolar II). I don't want to repeat the same mistake with lithium orotate that I made with Effexor.
I went off all meds about 3 months ago, except for the occasional left-over Ativan or perhaps a few cocktails when the ride got too wild (and it's been a wild, rapid-cycling ride). I am taking the supplements mentioned above, along with theanine and a multivitamin and a multimineral, and began taking lithium orotate about a week ago (with skepticism, as I am aware of the lack of methodologically sound research) .
It might be just coincidence, as I've read that lithium often takes 2-3 weeks to take full effect and I've only been on the lithium orotate for a week, but the last two days I have been more stable than I've been in years -- I haven't thrown a single object at the wall in a fit of mixed-state rage, nor spent a single moment curled up in the closet bawling in despair. Yeah, probably just the supplements kicking in, and/or coincidence ... I'll give it a good while longer to see whether the lithium orotate stuff works.
Any replies welcome.
Posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 8:36:05
In reply to Re: lithium orotate? (other minerals, etc.) » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
>I'm really happy you wrote, happier still you are getting some relief and taking good care of yourself. I noticed the effects of Lithium Orotate right away, no real delay in onset of benifits. The cautions in the Smith Schou study weren't based on much to my way of thinking. So far, my creatin clearance is normal, as is urinary output.
I started into my hypomanic phase in Febuary. Lithium Oratate has done a great job controling it. I have had to take my dose up considerably, I was using 2 tabs TID, bumped up to 3TID, now I'm on 4 TID. LO does seem to have a short half life. I have had a dose dependent response, and can tell if I miss a dose, and I get a strong mood stabilizing effect from a larger dose. My blood level of lithium has not yet risen above .1. It's doing a great job for me. My psychiatrist is impressed.
On safety, my doc speaks nationally with one of the world's leading experts on lithium, a Doctor Swann, when I first considered going on LO, my doc consulted with Dr. Swann. He basically said lithium is lithium and it shouldn't hurt me. The only side effect I've noticed on the higher doses is a slight change in balance.
I use mega doses of B vitamins, L-lysine, Taurine, No caffine, vegatarian Diet. I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
I'd love to hear individually from anyone trying or thinking of trying Lithium Orotate. My email is : dreamingnow8@hotmail.com Hope this helps. Steve
Hi folks,
>
> I'm new here ... I registered primarily to ask others about lithium orotate, and about bipolar folks' successes (and/or lack thereof) with taurine, tyrosine, B vitamins, magnasium, and the other stuff that some research suggests is helpful for bipolar (anyone into Vipassana? I'm getting back into it after years of neglect; kirtan too). To Stebu and others who are using lithium orotate under a MD's supervision/with an MD's knowledge: what do your docs have to say about the Smith and Schou (1979) study about kidney function? I have read a number of anecdotal reports that the orotate form of lithium often works (although not always) for bipolars, and I am aware that many MDs into holistic/alternative care are recommending it to their patients with some good anecdotal success rates, but I would hate to find out after taking it for a while that I've permanently turned my kidneys into jello or over-salted my brain.
>
> I found out the hard way that Effexor is pure poison (for me, at least -- nearly 2 years of 24/7 mixed-state or dysphoric hypomania before I figured out, with no help from my psychiatrist until I suggested the idea, that the Effexor might be doing more harm than good ... same doc who failed to even screen me for bipolar even though the symptoms of my diagnosed GAD are virtually identical to a dysphoric bipolar II). I don't want to repeat the same mistake with lithium orotate that I made with Effexor.
>
> I went off all meds about 3 months ago, except for the occasional left-over Ativan or perhaps a few cocktails when the ride got too wild (and it's been a wild, rapid-cycling ride). I am taking the supplements mentioned above, along with theanine and a multivitamin and a multimineral, and began taking lithium orotate about a week ago (with skepticism, as I am aware of the lack of methodologically sound research) .
>
> It might be just coincidence, as I've read that lithium often takes 2-3 weeks to take full effect and I've only been on the lithium orotate for a week, but the last two days I have been more stable than I've been in years -- I haven't thrown a single object at the wall in a fit of mixed-state rage, nor spent a single moment curled up in the closet bawling in despair. Yeah, probably just the supplements kicking in, and/or coincidence ... I'll give it a good while longer to see whether the lithium orotate stuff works.
>
> Any replies welcome.
>
Posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 8:36:05
> I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
>Thanks, Steve -- I appreciate the info on lithium orotate, supplements, etc. As you're a yoga teacher, I wonder what is your opinion of "Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan?" It seems to be the only kundalini practice available in the states (as the yogis in India keep it secret except for those deemed ready to be initiated), and I've read a whole lot that makes me quite skeptical of this Yogi Bhajan fellow (if he's not an outright fraud, some of his documented conduct certainly deviates from both Sikh and yogi norms -- and he claims to be both a Sikh and a yogi), which of course makes me suspicious as to whether his purported kundalini yoga system is anything more than a little hatha yoga with some snake oil thrown in for good measure. After doing the basic hatha yoga along with some raja meditative, etc. techniques, under another instructor I studied under his system for a while a couple years ago but got very little from it and decided to keep my money. Curious what your thoughts are about this fellow and his yoga system? Thanks.
Posted by stebu on March 29, 2004, at 14:30:07
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
Nothing wrong with kundalini yoga, though I'm not familiar with Yogi Bajan. I would recomend a practice grounded in hatha,and raja with lots of meditation and mindfulness training to you or anyone else who is bi-polar. Thich Naht Hanh and Jack Kornfield are doing a good job covering mindfulness in book form.
Kundalini, kira, and other mostly intellectual yogas can avoid the really necessary work of body/breath, and, I think, can be a bit destablizing for us bi-polar types, if not grounded in hatha. Shoot me a personal email and I'll try to point you to a teacher. Steve
> > I teach yoga, pranayama, meditation,and asana are all a big part of what keeps me healthy.
> >
>
> Thanks, Steve -- I appreciate the info on lithium orotate, supplements, etc. As you're a yoga teacher, I wonder what is your opinion of "Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan?" It seems to be the only kundalini practice available in the states (as the yogis in India keep it secret except for those deemed ready to be initiated), and I've read a whole lot that makes me quite skeptical of this Yogi Bhajan fellow (if he's not an outright fraud, some of his documented conduct certainly deviates from both Sikh and yogi norms -- and he claims to be both a Sikh and a yogi), which of course makes me suspicious as to whether his purported kundalini yoga system is anything more than a little hatha yoga with some snake oil thrown in for good measure. After doing the basic hatha yoga along with some raja meditative, etc. techniques, under another instructor I studied under his system for a while a couple years ago but got very little from it and decided to keep my money. Curious what your thoughts are about this fellow and his yoga system? Thanks.
Posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:34:12
In reply to Re: lithium orotate? (other minerals, etc.) » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 28, 2004, at 23:56:12
I have a Mental Health link on my website, http://moss.witchesgathering.com , where I discuss the problems I've had locally and the supplements I'm using. I have links to other sites, and a full document linked in that reports studies on lithium orotate.
I've been taking lithium orotate solidly for about 5 months now and on and off before that. I think it works just fine.
Posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:38:32
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » stebu, posted by guttersnipe on March 29, 2004, at 13:58:33
I learn Raja Kundalini from my guru, Rudrananda, and my paramguru also teaches it. It's a very simple kundalini yoga method, very easy to learn. I also am doing Raja Yoga, which is based on Samkhyin techniques, also with my guru. Since my guru lives in Colo Springs and my paramguru in Seattle, I would say that the method you know of is NOT the only one available in the States. :D
Posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 19:25:26
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mordewis on April 6, 2004, at 16:38:32
Thanks for the info!
> I learn Raja Kundalini from my guru, Rudrananda, and my paramguru also teaches it. It's a very simple kundalini yoga method, very easy to learn. I also am doing Raja Yoga, which is based on Samkhyin techniques, also with my guru. Since my guru lives in Colo Springs and my paramguru in Seattle, I would say that the method you know of is NOT the only one available in the States. :D
Posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 19:25:26
Nice way to hijack a thread..What a mess.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2004, at 20:05:33
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
> Nice way to hijack a thread..
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 20:50:52
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 19:28:15
> Nice way to hijack a thread..What a mess.
Mystery Person,
I did not "hijack" anything. My post asked about others' experiences with lithium orotate, what their doctors have to say about its effect (if any) on kidney function, and since this is the "alternative" forum it seemed sensible to ask whether people are supplementing lithium orotate and if so, with what. Then I described my own experience (on that note, that the lithium orotate continues to work for me).
Before I posted anything to this forum, I lurked for a while on various threads, and there is quite evidently no unwritten rule against submitting a post that includes a topic other than that addressed by the first post of the thread (as, I note, your post did). Indeed, I have never been in any internet fora along the lines of this one where that was the case. Discussing topics related to the original topic of discussion is the natural process of dialogue ... which is a big part of what this forum is about, right? So I don't see discussion of nutritional or lifestyle changes made in conjunction with taking lithium orotate to be very far off-topic at all, and to the extent that they are off-topic, they are so in a way that seems to me to be perfectly appropriate for an exchange of experiences and views in the "alternative" forum.
If there is some secret protocol for posting here, other than what I read when I signed up and other than the basic rule of "be polite," then please share it with me so that I will not unwittingly transgress its strictures.
Posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 6, 2004, at 20:50:52
Can you let me know when you get back to the thread title about lithium orotate? Or maybe I should just read through your boring little private alternative..No better yet, maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
Please..the fragility of some people just outright depresses me..
Posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
> Can you let me know when you get back to the thread title about lithium orotate? Or maybe I should just read through your boring little private alternative..No better yet, maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
> Please..the fragility of some people just outright depresses me..Mystery Complainer: you know, there are decaffeinated varieties available now that taste just as good as the real thing! You might give that a try, as you could stand to chill out a bit.
And sure, I'll let you know when and if lithium orotate is the *only* topic discussed on this thread (by the way, I did note in a post yesterday that that lithium orotate stuff is continuing to work for me, but evidently you overlooked that). Until then, why don't you just stay away from this thread, as you seem to have nothing to contribute other than snotty remarks?
As for discussion of supplements and/or practices that might be complementary to lithium orotate, it's too bad that you find that to be boring, as you might benefit trying some of them. At the least, they might improve your surly disposition.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2004, at 19:57:47
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by mysteryroad on April 6, 2004, at 21:15:46
> maybe Dr. Bob should just ban me for life for being uncivil.
No, just one week.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2004, at 20:01:35
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
> you could stand to chill out a bit.
>
> evidently you overlooked that)... why don't you just stay away from this thread, as you seem to have nothing to contribute other than snotty remarks?
>
> your surly disposition.Please be sensitive to the feelings of others even if yours have been hurt and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by mordewis on April 16, 2004, at 0:39:35
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » mysteryroad, posted by guttersnipe on April 7, 2004, at 16:02:17
Since we're talking about lithium orotate again, I would like to say that several of my friends who are taking lithium orotate had the same experience that I did, switching between forms, from the capsules back to the pills. In each of our cases, it felt like we needed to increase the number of pills we were taking. I'm going back to the capsules, they are only slightly more expensive -- the capsules I'm getting at $11.95 for 120, the pills are $12.20 for 200 (I know there are higher prices, just letting you know what I'm paying in case you're paying more -- or less).
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