![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 13, 2003, at 17:25:13
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on December 13, 2003, at 15:53:40
> Lar,
>
> > So, given the restraints I've outlined, I don't have too many options, eh?
>
> There are ALWAYS options! Problems are merely solutions waiting to be found. We just have to be smart enough and persistent enough to find one or more of the workable solutions.Indeed. The search is ongoing, and still hopeful, despite the tone of my last message.
> > I've just ordered some horse feed. Maybe that will help.
>
> You mean tryptophan, right?Yes. You always were the perceptive one. And, snipping right to the point....
> Thus supplemental tryptophan may induce one’s pineal gland to naturally increase its melatonin production. Also, important sleep regulating nerve circuits in the brainstem (the raphe nuclei) use serotonin as their neurotransmitter, so it is unreasonable to expect melatonin alone to provide optimal insomnia relief.
> Low dose melatonin (0.5mg to 1mg) plus tryptophan (500mg to 1500mg) may prove more effective for many people with serious insomnia.Exactly the point of a discussion with my CBT counsellor just last week....so I decided to see if my horse feed will get past Customs... along with a variety of other supps (great prices!).
> Taken from: http://www.smartnutrition.info/JamesSouth-tryptophan.htm
>
> In years past, I had problems with insomnia (due primarily to hypomania). I had some success with low dosage (about 0.5 mg) sublingual melatonin (Source Naturals brand). Melatonin in any form other than sublingual would not even touch my insomnia.Just in case anybody else is following this thread, most melatonin tablets on the market are substantially more than physiological replacement doses of melatonin (should be 0.3-0.5 mg, not 3 mg like I usually see). So, I chop the tablets into smaller chunks, and take little bits....but it always leaves me "hungover".
> I had to take frequent breaks from the sublingual melatonin or else it lost its effectiveness. Also, Sonata worked fairly well for me. YMMV.
>
> -- RonI'm just trying to do one manipulation at a time (experimental control methodology), but I'll certainly give tryptophan a decent trial.
Thanks,
LarP.S. New supplement and herb regs go into effect in Canada in January, to be phased in over the next three years. Melatonin will be legal right away (as far as I can tell), as will some free aminos. It even looks like tryptophan will be legal again, as an OTC supp, once the approval has been granted. It's hard to tell for sure, but it looks that way.
Posted by joebob on December 14, 2003, at 10:47:47
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on December 13, 2003, at 15:53:40
best combo i have found for myself....
trazadone 100mg, 45 min before bed
melatonin sr, which i prefer, .5 to 1mg.....which also seems to help with sad this time of year
and occasionally 5mg valium on a hypomanic night, chewed 15 min before sleep while in bedthe meds were what my neurologist, a big time sleep expert here in la prescribed....the doc could care less about supps
you can get both sr and sublingual melatonin in almost any dosages from 'emerson ecologics' on the web....don't know if they ship to canada
regular melatonin at any dose seemed to have a minor effect but i often woke later in the night..hence my switch to sustained release
sleep is the most essential thing for my overall well being
best to all
Posted by johnj on December 14, 2003, at 14:55:50
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on December 13, 2003, at 17:25:13
HI Larry (and Ron too)
Just got back on and read the thread between you two. I hope you both are doing well and we all find our healing path. Sometimes despair is so great.
larry, well it seems you and I are in the same boat as far as the sleep things goes. I have struggled trying to find something for the last 2.5 years.
I have been away for awhile and for the last 9 weeks have been waiting to do my sleep study. I did it last week and the results, or lack thereof, were almost devastating. I expected something and the only thing I had was a lack of deep sleep,not caused by sleep apnea. I had hoped for some dx and there was none. The only thing that keeps me going is the remeron giving me kind of a "who cares attitude". I seem to have to numb myself to stay functional.
When I added 15mg of remeron last spring and started using a mouth guard since I grind my teeth(I probably mentioned it before). But, I lost the mouth guard and slowly started to feel worse, hence the doc thinking I had apnea. For about two months I was yawning naturally and sleeping through my alarm. Everythin took a dive when I lost my mouth guard. So the dentist made me a new one, different style, and it gave me so much tension in my forehead.
The excercise still makes my insomnia worse, just not that day it happens a day or so later. I think the lack of deep sleep is what hurts me. My body is repairing itself. The one non-drug, supplement thing I long for eludes me still. The fatigue and muscle loss concern me a great deal. All I get from the docs are "excercise will help". Well it used to but not anymore. It is tough to know what to do. I sometimes think maybe paxil could help the anxiety/gad, but ssri's scare me and cymbalta is still a know show.
Larry, is your PTSD causing you anxiety and hence insomnia? I seem to "sleep" 7 hours, but wake up bushed. I also have funny eye twitches, and muscle twitches from lack of sleep. Lack of sleep takes it toll. Have you tried a low dose of remeron? I know you tried it in the past, but at what dose? At least I get to sleep it just isn't as restorative as I need. I also take lithobid and tranzene(which the doc thinks) might mess up my deep sleep.
Take care of yourself and hopefully I will have the energy to keep looking. My wife is not handling things very well and I sometimes wonder if she will leave. I wouldn't blame her as the meds make me intolerable and grumpy and short tempered. Thanks to remeron my sex drive has diminished to almost nothing.
Peace to you both, and may a miracle find us all.
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on December 14, 2003, at 23:07:12
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 14, 2003, at 14:55:50
My friend Johnj,
Have you ever tried an AP, say Zyprexa? How about changing to another (better) benzo, say Klonopin?
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on December 15, 2003, at 10:53:29
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on December 14, 2003, at 23:07:12
HI Ron,
No, I haven't tried an AP and really don't want to at this point. I have thought about another benzo such as klonopin, but I don't know how different it would be than tranzene.
I have thought about trying some tryptophan, but since I take nortyptline and remeron I don't know what type of reaction I would have. I would like to go down on the remeron and add trypto, but don't know if that is advisable or not.
I wonder if taking a small amount of tryptophan during the middle morning or middle afternoon would be a good idea for anxiety? I think right now I am having a "hangover" from the med combo so I am out of it in the morning. I may try to go down on some of the tranzene hoping to reduce the hangover effect.
Where did people get their tryptophan? I thought it was illegal?
Have a good one.
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on December 15, 2003, at 12:34:28
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on December 15, 2003, at 10:53:29
Hey Johnj,
> Where did people get their tryptophan? I thought it was illegal?
I know a couple of overseas sites that sell pharmaceutical tryptophan but, since the sites also sell medications without prescriptions, I can't post the links on Dr. Bob's pbabble. Use your search engines.
Click on the following link to one of Larry's posts. In it he provided information regarding the legal issue and he also provided a link to a site that sells tryptophan supplements for horses at an affordable price. Beware however, McPac's appetite for apples and oats have escalated dramatically since taking the product. Further, McPac now has an incurable urge to gallop at full speed around horse race tracks. His current odds are 7-to-5 for his next event this upcoming weekend.
Here's Larry's post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/271979.html
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2003, at 16:51:58
In reply to Re: Tryptophan » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on December 15, 2003, at 12:34:28
> Hey Johnj,
>
> > Where did people get their tryptophan? I thought it was illegal?
>
> I know a couple of overseas sites that sell pharmaceutical tryptophan but, since the sites also sell medications without prescriptions, I can't post the links on Dr. Bob's pbabble. Use your search engines.
>
> Click on the following link to one of Larry's posts. In it he provided information regarding the legal issue and he also provided a link to a site that sells tryptophan supplements for horses at an affordable price. Beware however, McPac's appetite for apples and oats have escalated dramatically since taking the product. Further, McPac now has an incurable urge to gallop at full speed around horse race tracks. His current odds are 7-to-5 for his next event this upcoming weekend.
>
> Here's Larry's post:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/271979.html
>
> -- RonYou forgot the part where he's dreaming of retiring at stud.
Lar
Posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 0:58:51
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2003, at 8:47:01
Have you ever tried low-dose Remeron (7.5 mg or 15 mg) for your insomnia?
My insomnia is chronic and HORRENDOUS...and low-dose Remeron has been GREAT for it (mag. glycinate along w/ it makes it even better).
Take care Larry!
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 9:28:23
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 14, 2003, at 14:55:50
> HI Larry (and Ron too)
>
> Just got back on and read the thread between you two. I hope you both are doing well and we all find our healing path. Sometimes despair is so great.
>
> larry, well it seems you and I are in the same boat as far as the sleep things goes. I have struggled trying to find something for the last 2.5 years.
>
> I have been away for awhile and for the last 9 weeks have been waiting to do my sleep study. I did it last week and the results, or lack thereof, were almost devastating. I expected something and the only thing I had was a lack of deep sleep,not caused by sleep apnea. I had hoped for some dx and there was none. The only thing that keeps me going is the remeron giving me kind of a "who cares attitude". I seem to have to numb myself to stay functional.Actually, that is a finding. If you're not getting into stage 3 and 4 sleep, you're not getting restorative sleep. And, you won't be releasing hGh and other control hormones, so your whole endocrine system gets out of whack. For people with that pattern, benzos like Restoril (tenazepam) can actually increase deep sleep, whereas they decrease it in normal people.
> When I added 15mg of remeron last spring and started using a mouth guard since I grind my teeth(I probably mentioned it before). But, I lost the mouth guard and slowly started to feel worse, hence the doc thinking I had apnea. For about two months I was yawning naturally and sleeping through my alarm. Everythin took a dive when I lost my mouth guard. So the dentist made me a new one, different style, and it gave me so much tension in my forehead.
Then it doesn't fit right. You should get him to replace it, or try to match the one you lost.
> The excercise still makes my insomnia worse, just not that day it happens a day or so later. I think the lack of deep sleep is what hurts me. My body is repairing itself. The one non-drug, supplement thing I long for eludes me still. The fatigue and muscle loss concern me a great deal.One of the effects of prolonged sleep deprivation is decline in testosterone (in males). You should get your bioavailable testosterone level measured. The results may surprise you. You may also want to complete a short questionnaire called ADAM.
http://www.conturo.com/be_core/content/journals/u/data/2003/0401/adam1.html
It identifies a symptom cluster presumptive of testosterone deficiency, not necessarily restricted to the aging effect.
> All I get from the docs are "excercise will help". Well it used to but not anymore. It is tough to know what to do.
There is a concept applied in exercise for e.g. chronic fatigue sufferers....the finger pattern. If you look at your hand, it's finger space finger space....if you exercise one day, take the next day off. If you exercise two days, take two days off. This lets your body get the rest it needs. Also, you may be exercising to exhaustion without realizing it. Don't compare your exercise level to others. Just because other people do two hours a day does not mean it's appropriate for you to do so. Cut back by a third, and see if that helps.
> I sometimes think maybe paxil could help the anxiety/gad, but ssri's scare me and cymbalta is still a know show.
>
> Larry, is your PTSD causing you anxiety and hence insomnia?I see my PTSD in terms of a symptom cluster. Insomnia is also associated with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, and I have symptoms of all three. I don't separate them, though doctors might.
I have low grade anxiety all the time, but that is inseparable from the effects of the insomnia, IMHO. If my insomnia remits, so does the anxiety. My symptoms wax and wane together, pretty consistently.
> I seem to "sleep" 7 hours, but wake up bushed.
That's the lack of stage 3 and 4 sleep.
> I also have funny eye twitches, and muscle twitches from lack of sleep. Lack of sleep takes it toll. Have you tried a low dose of remeron?
Not low dose. It made me impotent (which I will not accept), so I ditched it. I've got some left (30 mg tabs).....hmmmmm.
> I know you tried it in the past, but at what dose?
My episodic memory sucks....I don't remember for sure, but I think I started at 30, and went to 45 after two weeks. My declarative memory is still good, but episodic memory is a real problem for me.
> At least I get to sleep it just isn't as restorative as I need. I also take lithobid and tranzene(which the doc thinks) might mess up my deep sleep.
It does in some people.
> Take care of yourself and hopefully I will have the energy to keep looking. My wife is not handling things very well and I sometimes wonder if she will leave. I wouldn't blame her as the meds make me intolerable and grumpy and short tempered. Thanks to remeron my sex drive has diminished to almost nothing.
At low dose? Darn. There goes that idea.
> Peace to you both, and may a miracle find us all.
>
> johnjThanks john.
And for the record, zyprexa is unacceptable for me. It is activating me after four days.
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 11:23:28
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron » Larry Hoover » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 9:28:23
Hi Larry,
Good to hear from you. It feels good to connect with people who are experiencing the same thing and I appreciate your thoughts and insight. Of course, I have some more questions for you.> HI Larry (and Ron too)
>
> Just got back on and read the thread between you two. I hope you both are doing well and we all find our healing path. Sometimes despair is so great.
>
> larry, well it seems you and I are in the same boat as far as the sleep things goes. I have struggled trying to find something for the last 2.5 years.
>
> I have been away for awhile and for the last 9 weeks have been waiting to do my sleep study. I did it last week and the results, or lack thereof, were almost devastating. I expected something and the only thing I had was a lack of deep sleep,not caused by sleep apnea. I had hoped for some dx and there was none. The only thing that keeps me going is the remeron giving me kind of a "who cares attitude". I seem to have to numb myself to stay functional.<Actually, that is a finding. If you're not getting into stage 3 and 4 sleep, you're not getting restorative sleep. And, you won't be releasing hGh and other control hormones, so your whole endocrine system gets out of whack. For people with that pattern, benzos like Restoril (tenazepam) can actually increase deep sleep, whereas they decrease it in normal people.>
What about other meds besides benzo’s for sleep? Ambien or sonata? There are two new ones coming out that are supposed to be really good. One thing I don’t know, and what scares me, is that maybe I am treating symptoms not the problem. Does my work stress or not such a fullfilling career cause me anxiety/depression? Is something wrong with my marriage? When I was feeling good for that time in the summer nothing about my job or marriage seemed wrong or unable to handle. I just want to be able to show my wife the real me again and just wake up looking forward to the day.
> When I added 15mg of remeron last spring and started using a mouth guard since I grind my teeth(I probably mentioned it before). But, I lost the mouth guard and slowly started to feel worse, hence the doc thinking I had apnea. For about two months I was yawning naturally and sleeping through my alarm. Everything took a dive when I lost my mouth guard. So the dentist made me a new one, different style, and it gave me so much tension in my forehead.
<Then it doesn't fit right. You should get him to replace it, or try to match the one you lost.>
My thoughts exactly. It just didn’t seem to fit my pattern of having something work for 10 days or two weeks, then quit. With the mouthguard I slowly edged into deeper sleep over a two month span. My alarm clock was waking me up. I was groggy, but awakened after showering. This was very close to what I experienced pre depression/anxiety. The first night I didn’t use the mouthguard I feel asleep fine, but awoke with a twinge of head tightness and a tad bit of anxiety. Not enough to impair me, but it slowly has gotten worse. And with the new mouthguard worse tightness, I have experimented off and on with this and the same results each time. Just had to ditch it in the end and grind away.
> The excercise still makes my insomnia worse, just not that day it happens a day or so later. I think the lack of deep sleep is what hurts me. My body is repairing itself. The one non-drug, supplement thing I long for eludes me still. The fatigue and muscle loss concern me a great deal.
<One of the effects of prolonged sleep deprivation is decline in testosterone (in males). You should get your bioavailable testosterone level measured. The results may surprise you. You may also want to complete a short questionnaire called ADAM.>
http://www.conturo.com/be_core/content/journals/u/data/2003/0401/adam1.html
It identifies a symptom cluster presumptive of testosterone deficiency, not necessarily restricted to the aging effect.I will give this a look, thank you very much.
> All I get from the docs are "excercise will help". Well it used to but not anymore. It is tough to know what to do.
<There is a concept applied in exercise for e.g. chronic fatigue sufferers....the finger pattern. If you look at your hand, it's finger space finger space....if you exercise one day, take the next day off. If you exercise two days, take two days off. This lets your body get the rest it needs. Also, you may be exercising to exhaustion without realizing it. Don't compare your exercise level to others. Just because other people do two hours a day does not mean it's appropriate for you to do so. Cut back by a third, and see if that helps.>
I only do tai chi and it is a very light workout. My theory is I am just not recovering due to lack of deep sleep and the demands on my body disrupt my sleep. If I tried to do any weightlighting or running I wouldn’t last 5 minutes.
> I sometimes think maybe paxil could help the anxiety/gad, but ssri's scare me and cymbalta is still a know show.
>
> Larry, is your PTSD causing you anxiety and hence insomnia?
<I see my PTSD in terms of a symptom cluster. Insomnia is also associated with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, and I have symptoms of all three. I don't separate them, though doctors might.I have low grade anxiety all the time, but that is inseparable from the effects of the insomnia, IMHO. If my insomnia remits, so does the anxiety. My symptoms wax and wane together, pretty consistently.>WOW, we are identical in that respect. If I sleep well, my anxiety levels drops, and I handle stress much better. I always feel I am a few nights of good sleep away from feeling just feeling fine.
> I seem to "sleep" 7 hours, but wake up bushed.
<That's the lack of stage 3 and 4 sleep.>
Bingo! Just what I thought. Again, my body is not repairing itself. They told me at the sleep clinic that I had very little…..Theta waves I believe? They told me exercise should improve deep sleep, but not for me at this point. They mentioned my meds may be a problem. But, I was ok for years and then had sleep problems again that led to the extra tranzene and remeron.> I also have funny eye twitches, and muscle twitches from lack of sleep. Lack of sleep takes it toll. Have you tried a low dose of remeron?
<Not low dose. It made me impotent (which I will not accept), so I ditched it. I've got some left (30 mg tabs).....hmmmmm.>
> I know you tried it in the past, but at what dose?
<My episodic memory sucks....I don't remember for sure, but I think I started at 30, and went to 45 after two weeks. My declarative memory is still good, but episodic memory is a real problem for me.>> At least I get to sleep it just isn't as restorative as I need. I also take lithobid and tranzene(which the doc thinks) might mess up my deep sleep.
<It does in some people. >
Do you think both the lithobid and tranzene could affect my deep sleep?
> Take care of yourself and hopefully I will have the energy to keep looking. My wife is not handling things very well and I sometimes wonder if she will leave. I wouldn't blame her as the meds make me intolerable and grumpy and short tempered. Thanks to remeron my sex drive has diminished to almost nothing.
<At low dose? Darn. There goes that idea.>
Larry, 15 was definitely better than 30 mg for me in the sex department. I am thinking of cutting to 11.25 mg. 30 mg stopped me dead in my tracks. It is tough, I need to be at least functional at work so if sex has to go I have no choice at this time. I am thinking of trying tryptophan. Did you get the ultrapure? Not a bad price. It is for horses, any concerns about that? I am a little afraid of seratonin syndrome since I take remeron. Doc says give any supplement a try, but with the remeron, lithobid, and nortryptline it is scary. One thing I didn’t like is the rebound insomnia I had after discontinuing the remeron, that is when the doc just raised my tranzene.
> Peace to you both, and may a miracle find us all.
>
> johnj
Thanks john.And for the record, zyprexa is unacceptable for me. It is activating me after four days.
Sorry to hear that Larry, Ron suggested that to me. I find myself having a lot of paradoxial experiences with meds and supplements too.Thanks Larry, good luck to us both!
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 11:33:44
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 11:23:28
Larry,
I forgot to ask, but I wanted to get a scientist's view on tryptophan. I appears it is not the easiest to get in diet. In addition, not the easiest to get to pass the blood brain barrier. Therefore, I wonder, is our diet vastly different from what our ancestors ate, me being German and English in backgroug, what is our diet missing? Just curious on what you thought or anybody else out there.
Thanks
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 12:16:02
In reply to Above post for Larry H too » johnj, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 11:33:44
> Larry,
>
> I forgot to ask, but I wanted to get a scientist's view on tryptophan. I appears it is not the easiest to get in diet. In addition, not the easiest to get to pass the blood brain barrier.Quite correct.
> Therefore, I wonder, is our diet vastly different from what our ancestors ate, me being German and English in backgroug, what is our diet missing? Just curious on what you thought or anybody else out there.
> Thanks
> johnjYes, our diet has substantially changed, and particularly so over the last century. Far faster, IMHO, than we can adapt and evolve along side those changes.
One of the biggest changes is in the realm of carbs. Purified starches (e.g. white flour, corn starch), sugars (often derived from the latter), are not natural foods. There is a direct correlation between depression and sugar consumption, although there are other explanations which may account for the finding (e.g. sugar consumption is a marker for food-processing more generally, or that other dietary components also correlating with sugar are responsible for the observed relationship). A Pearson correlation coefficient of about 0.95 is extraordinarily robust.
Depress Anxiety. 2002;16(3):118-20.
A cross-national relationship between sugar consumption and major depression?
Westover AN, Marangell LB.
Mood Disorders Center (MDOC), Department of Psychiatry, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. anwestover@yahoo.com
We have preliminarily investigated the hypothesis that sugar consumption may impact the prevalence of major depression by correlating per capita consumption of sugar with the prevalence of major depression. Major depression prevalence data (annual rate/100) was obtained from the Cross-National Epidemiology of Major Depression and Bipolar Disorder study [Weissman et al., 1996]. Sugar consumption data from 1991 was obtained from the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations. For the primary analysis, sugar consumption rates (cal/cap/day) were correlated with the annual rate of major depression, using the Pearson correlation coefficient. For the six countries with available data for the primary analysis, there was a highly significant correlation between sugar consumption and the annual rate of depression (Pearson correlation 0.948, P=0.004). Naturally, a correlation does not necessarily imply etiology. Caveats such as the limited number of countries with available data must be considered. Although speculative, there are some mechanistic reasons to consider that sugar consumption may directly impact the prevalence of major depression. Possible relationships between sugar consumption, beta-endorphins, and oxidative stress are discussed. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
It is my belief that we (historically) used to eat far more meat relative to carbs. This concept is pretty much embodied in what proponents of the Paleolithic Diet describe. There are also quacks in that philosophical realm, but there is some wisdom too....
Even subtler trends are embodied in our move towards confinement of livestock. Up until fifty years ago, animals foraged for a substantial part of their food supply. Today, they are fed the bare minimum of some key nutrients while being fattened with excesses of grain-based feedstocks (e.g. confinement poultry are fed just enough calcium that their leg bones won't fracture under the weight of the body above them). The resultant meat/dairy/eggs can only supply to us what the critters themselves have received. As a result, we are chronically deficient in e.g. omega-3 fatty acids, as vegetable oil/grain rations are massively over-supplied in omega-6s, but deficient in omega-3s. Free-range animals have very different fatty acid profiles than confined ones.
Eur J Clin Nutr. 2002 Mar;56(3):181-91.
Fatty acid analysis of wild ruminant tissues: evolutionary implications for reducing diet-related chronic disease.Cordain L, Watkins BA, Florant GL, Kelher M, Rogers L, Li Y.
Department of Health and Exercise Sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado 80523, USA. cordain@cahs.colostate.edu
HYPOTHESES: Consumption of wild ruminant fat represented the primary lipid source for pre-agricultural humans. Hence, the lipid composition of these animals' tissues may provide insight into dietary requirements that offer protection from chronic disease in modern humans. METHOD: We examined the lipid composition of muscle, brain, marrow and subcutaneous adipose tissue (AT) from 17 elk (Cervus elaphus), 15 mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus), and 17 antelope (Antilicapra americana) and contrasted them to wild African ruminants and pasture and grain-fed cattle. RESULTS: Muscle fatty acid (FA) was similar among North American species with polyunsaturated fatty acids/saturated fatty acids (P/S) values from 0.80 to 1.09 and n-6/n-3 FA from 2.32 to 2.60. Marrow FA was similar among North American species with high levels (59.3-67.0%) of monounsaturated FA; a low P/S (0.24-0.33), and an n-6/n-3 of 2.24-2.88. Brain had the lowest n-6/n-3 (1.20-1.29), the highest concentration of 22:6 n-3 (elk, 8.90%; deer, 9.62%; antelope, 9.25%) and a P/S of 0.69. AT had the lowest P/S (0.05-0.09) and n-6/n-3 (2.25-2.96). Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) isomers were found in marrow of antelope (1.5%), elk (1.0%) and deer (1.0%), in AT (deer, 0.3%; antelope, 0.3%) in muscle (antelope, 0.4%; elk, trace), but not in brain. CONCLUSIONS: Literature comparisons showed tissue lipids of North American and African ruminants were similar to pasture-fed cattle, but dissimilar to grain-fed cattle. The lipid composition of wild ruminant tissues may serve as a model for dietary lipid recommendations in treating and preventing chronic disease.
So, yes we are under environmetal stress through diet. And yes, you are what you eat. You may have come across the term "empty calories", which describes energy content of food which is otherwise devoid (or nearly so) in nutritive value. Perhaps those foods alone are enough to send susceptible individuals down a slippery vicious circle spiral down down down.....One of the simplest trials to make is to fortify yourself with the hydrolysed protein supplements often used by weight lifters/body builders. If you feel better after adding this to your diet, then you likely have a protein digestion problem, not a tryptophan usage problem, or deficiency.
I see no possible adverse effects in using equine tryptophan supps. People care more about the health of their horses than they do about other people, IMHO. No way they'd ever use something with toxic potential. No way.
Just my opinionated two cents,
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 14:04:12
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 12:16:02
Hi Larry,
It was rude of me not to ask you how trucking has been going? Hope you have been safe on the road.
>
> One of the simplest trials to make is to fortify yourself with the hydrolysed protein supplements often used by weight lifters/body builders. If you feel better after adding this to your diet, then you likely have a protein digestion problem, not a tryptophan usage problem, or deficiency.Larry, do you mean that by trying hydrolysed protein supplements do you mean a whey protein? I am not sure what you mean by "protein digestion problem." Do you mean trouble digesting or trouble with amount and type of protein? Sorry for not being able to grasp this very well right now.
In the past I think whey protein caused constipation. This is hard to confirm, but is there other proteins such as goat milk that would be advisable? I ask this because I read a book by the guy that markets "garden of life" products. He sells and uses goat protein. Have you checked out these products? He talks about probiotics too. I think you would find it quite interesting. I got borrowed the book from the library.
Here is a link about the book and the products. Your scientific opinion would be appreciated.http://primaldefenseandbeyond.com/patienthealthyselfbook.html
Most of the products are quite expensive.
> I see no possible adverse effects in using equine tryptophan supps. People care more about the health of their horses than they do about other people, IMHO.>I hear you on that one. Nobody brushes me down after riding me all day :)
Do you think the ultra-pure is the better route or doesn't it matter to you? I have no clue to be perfectly honest.
I looked at the paleo diet. Wow, no beans either. My wife is Asian and soy sauce is used so much. I am a fruit lover so that appears to be no problem. I am afraid of nuts because of the high fat content.
One last question. Have you ever tried "green" products such as "kyo green" which is made up of wheat and barely grass, kelp, chorella, and brown rice? It has no artificial colors and flavors, dairy products, gluten, preservatives, sodium, yeast. Sorry for being full of questions and thank you for your input.
About the only thing I can do is report on what I take and pray for us. Hard to have faith in times like these.
Your a good friend Larry and I cannot thank you enough.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 14:46:52
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 14:04:12
> Hi Larry,
>
> It was rude of me not to ask you how trucking has been going? Hope you have been safe on the road.I can only manage to work intermittently. Thanks for asking, but this is not a trucking time. January, I hope to go back out....trucker talk for hitting the road.
> >
> > One of the simplest trials to make is to fortify yourself with the hydrolysed protein supplements often used by weight lifters/body builders. If you feel better after adding this to your diet, then you likely have a protein digestion problem, not a tryptophan usage problem, or deficiency.
>
> Larry, do you mean that by trying hydrolysed protein supplements do you mean a whey protein?Whey protein is one such supplement, but I've seen soya protein too.
> I am not sure what you mean by "protein digestion problem." Do you mean trouble digesting or trouble with amount and type of protein?
It could be either or both, but more likely the former. It may seem counterintuitive, but improper digestion of protein makes future digestion of protein more difficult. It's a classic vicious circle.....to digest protein properly, your body needs stores of substances which can only reasonably be derived from proteins themselves. If anything occurs which reduces the efficiency of protein digestion, the whole process is rendered even more inefficient. It is my belief that functional malnutrition can fairly frequently occur, despite the provision of an adequate diet. If you can't efficiently break proteins down into constituent amino acids, you cannot absorb them. So, if you find that you feel better when using pre-digested protein (i.e. hyrolysed whey or soya protein), then that's presumptive evidence that you are not doing that very well in your own digestive tract.
It's also possible that the type of protein that is the problem for you, as an individual. Gluten, the offending irritant in celiac disorder, is a protein found mainly in wheat, for example. Again, pre-digested (hydrolysed) proteins would not give this irritant effect, so you'd know one of the two problems (or both) may contribute to your presumed tryptophan concerns, if the body-builder stuff helped you feel better.
Celiacs have proven disturbances in tryptophan metabolism, but you don't need the diagnosis to choose ways to circumvent the problem.
Supplements that assist in protein digestion are trimethylglycine (betaine), b12, and bromelain (an enzyme from pineapple stems).
> Sorry for not being able to grasp this very well right now.
I'm sorry you're not able, too. I will patiently work with you until you can grasp it.
> In the past I think whey protein caused constipation. This is hard to confirm, but is there other proteins such as goat milk that would be advisable?
Well, constipation is readily addressed by means of fiber intake.....but hydrolysed soya protein is a more balanced (amino acid content) alternative to whey protein in any case. Goat milk protein still needs to be digested....although it may be an alternative to consider after you try the hydrolysed product.
> I ask this because I read a book by the guy that markets "garden of life" products. He sells and uses goat protein. Have you checked out these products?
No, I haven't.
> He talks about probiotics too. I think you would find it quite interesting. I got borrowed the book from the library.
Probiotics are useful, as many digestive disorders are associated with imbalances in species and numbers of colonizing "critters". I'm not sure which comes first, though, the digestive disturbance or the population changes. Probably both together.
> Here is a link about the book and the products. Your scientific opinion would be appreciated.
>
> http://primaldefenseandbeyond.com/patienthealthyselfbook.htmlI think Aime sans vie touts primal defense? I will look later.
> Most of the products are quite expensive.
Right there, my BS detector starts to tilt. Maybe I'm just cheap.
> > I see no possible adverse effects in using equine tryptophan supps. People care more about the health of their horses than they do about other people, IMHO.>
>
> I hear you on that one. Nobody brushes me down after riding me all day :)People feed these supps to horses worth hundreds of thousands of dollars....cynical attitude perhaps, but I know for a fact that the dog food version of beef stew is more nutritious than the more expensive people version of beef stew.
> Do you think the ultra-pure is the better route or doesn't it matter to you? I have no clue to be perfectly honest.I just ordered the ultra-pure myself. But frankly, it doesn't matter much. I could afford the more expensive purer product, so I bought it.
> I looked at the paleo diet. Wow, no beans either.You don't have to accept that advice literally. I'm more into "moderate" use of foods like beans. Not absolute exclusion. The radical "if cro-magnon man didn't eat it, I won't" paleo group are too radical for me. I'm sure our hunter-gatherer forebears found beans in season....they just didn't grow them by the acre.
> My wife is Asian and soy sauce is used so much. I am a fruit lover so that appears to be no problem. I am afraid of nuts because of the high fat content.
(Natural) fat is not a health risk. Explaining why would be a lengthy process. Bottom line....eat as many nuts as you want. That does not include peanuts, though. They're beans (legumes).
> One last question. Have you ever tried "green" products such as "kyo green" which is made up of wheat and barely grass, kelp, chorella, and brown rice? It has no artificial colors and flavors, dairy products, gluten, preservatives, sodium, yeast. Sorry for being full of questions and thank you for your input.
I like questions. No, never tried it. I plan to try Greens + one of these days, though. I suspect it's a similar product?
> About the only thing I can do is report on what I take and pray for us. Hard to have faith in times like these.You're exhibiting faith by taking part in this dialogue. Glad to see you make the effort.
> Your a good friend Larry and I cannot thank you enough.
>
> johnjYa, you can. You just did.
Blessings,
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 16:13:11
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 14:46:52
Larry,
Thank you for the dialogue it has been very interesting and informative.With regards to the tryptophan it appears niacin is part of the process of conversion so why not more niacin?
What other vitamins do you plan to take with your tryptophan? Would anything help it bridge the blood brain barrier better?
I am having lots of muscle spasms today so concentrating is difficult. I need that stage 3 and 4 sleep.
Thanks again
johnj
Posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 16:43:51
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron » Larry Hoover » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 9:28:23
Lar, in reading your conversation with Johnj...
> I also have funny eye twitches, and muscle twitches from lack of sleep. Lack of sleep takes it toll. Have you tried a low dose of remeron?Not low dose. It made me impotent (which I will not accept), so I ditched it. I've got some left (30 mg tabs).....hmmmmm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, aah haa, so you DIDN'T try the LOW-dose remeron for your sleep, you only took the higher doses....I have always had HORRIBLE insomnia and low-dose Remeron has been a savior to me....try 7.5 or 15 mg Remeron, it works VERY well for me (take it w/ some magnesium (glycinate) and it works even better (for me). It may TOTALLY knock you out at first! It might be hard to function the next day (it ANNHILATED me at first!)...but after a few days your body will adjust (oh it will still work, it just won't wipe you out to THAT extreme as it may right at the very beginning).
> I know you tried it in the past, but at what dose?
My episodic memory sucks....I don't remember for sure, but I think I started at 30, and went to 45 after two weeks. My declarative memory is still good, but episodic memory is a real problem for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stay LOW (7.5 or 15 mg) for sleep problems.
> Take care of yourself and hopefully I will have the energy to keep looking. My wife is not handling things very well and I sometimes wonder if she will leave. I wouldn't blame her as the meds make me intolerable and grumpy and short tempered. Thanks to remeron my sex drive has diminished to almost nothing.
At low dose? Darn. There goes that idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I have never had that problem with Remeron at the lower doses...in fact, many say it helps with sexual problems caused by other meds....I would DEFINITELY give it a try if i were you!
Posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 16:53:49
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems, Ron, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 11:23:28
Hi John,
Have you tried adding magnesium at night, about an hour or so before bedtime? It can really help, particularly when ADDED to a sleep med, like low-dose Remeron. It helps give a much more deep sleep. If you try it, I'd go with magnesium glycinate (try for about 600 mg or so). You could even add some inositol too.
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 17:22:55
In reply to Johnj, Re: Sleep Problems, Ron, posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 16:53:49
Yes, I did try Mg and it worked well for 10 days and then insomnia got worse. Don't know what to say about it but those were great 10 days. Fish oil did the same to me. I'm just weird I guess.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 17:34:19
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 14:04:12
> In the past I think whey protein caused constipation. This is hard to confirm, but is there other proteins such as goat milk that would be advisable? I ask this because I read a book by the guy that markets "garden of life" products. He sells and uses goat protein. Have you checked out these products? He talks about probiotics too. I think you would find it quite interesting. I got borrowed the book from the library.
> Here is a link about the book and the products. Your scientific opinion would be appreciated.
>
> http://primaldefenseandbeyond.com/patienthealthyselfbook.htmlI'm leary of these products for three reasons:
1. the price.....what makes them so special?
2. the site has numerous scientific errors (some slight, some not so slight), and unsupported claims....and simple errors like spelling mistakes that I think a scientist would not make.
3. they don't give detailed breakdowns of the concentration or activity of the components.It's fine to say a product contains a culture of a particular species, but how much are you getting? It's fine to say a product (like omega-zyme) has a particular enzyme present, but what is the activity of the dose provided (there are standard scientific terms for enzyme activity).
The stuff may well be good for you, but it's awfully hard to evaluate.
Take the goat milk protein powder, as an example. If it's fully hydrolyzed (they mention free aminos), then it is no longer goat milk, and any health benefits accruing from goat's milk are no longer present....they've been digested away. In contrast, if it is dried milk goat's milk powder, then it is not digested at all....I can't really make out what the stuff is. Then they talk about it having all these enzymes in it. Bottom line is, I'm not clear on what they're selling ...apart from the hype. (That part is clear).
As for product called primal defense....I have no idea what the heck a homeostatic soil organism is. Or what benefit that would have on digestion. If you read their promotional description, they say their special little critters colonize the intestinal wall, displacing other not so nice little critters. Well, if their stuff does this colonization thingie, then why do you need to take it all the time?
Like I said, this stuff might help people feel better, but they haven't convinced me to spend my money. I'd be happy to hear from someone who's tried the stuff, though.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 17:42:05
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 16, 2003, at 16:13:11
> With regards to the tryptophan it appears niacin is part of the process of conversion so why not more niacin?
I think this is another one of those scientific half-truths a friend of mine calls factoids....
Niacin can be created from tryptophan, and I'm pretty sure the opposite is true as well.....but only bacteria do it to any appreciable extent (as far as I know), and the yield is something like 5%....giving rise to the 2 molecules niacin to every 60 molecules tryptophan ratio (or is it the other way around?)....
If you've got sufficient niacin in your diet, and sufficient tryptophan, your body isn't going to waste time making one from the other, I can assure you.
> What other vitamins do you plan to take with your tryptophan? Would anything help it bridge the blood brain barrier better?Just take it on an empty stomach. Or as close to that as you can approximate. If there is other food involved, make sure there's sugar in there. The insulin reaction will have the net effect of facilitating tryptophan uptake into the brain.
Regular B-vitamin and the usual minerals are all that are required....nothing special.
> I am having lots of muscle spasms today so concentrating is difficult. I need that stage 3 and 4 sleep.
You may get a benefit from vitamin E and calcium. They are sometimes effective for muscle spasms.
> Thanks again
>
> johnjGood luck, john
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 17:43:51
In reply to Larry, Re: Sleep Problems, Ron, posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 16:43:51
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I have never had that problem with Remeron at the lower doses...in fact, many say it helps with sexual problems caused by other meds....I would DEFINITELY give it a try if i were you!
OK, I will try it tonight....7.5 mg
I see my shrink Thursday....might as well have done the experiment before I see him again.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 17, 2003, at 9:20:23
In reply to Larry, Re: Sleep Problems, Ron, posted by McPac on December 16, 2003, at 16:43:51
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I have never had that problem with Remeron at the lower doses...in fact, many say it helps with sexual problems caused by other meds....I would DEFINITELY give it a try if i were you!
Just so ya know, at least one recent report has Remeron as worse than some SSRIs for sexual side effects, quite contrary to the propaganda put out by the drug company. Another puts Remeron at 1 in 4 with this problem.... It's not as benign as people think it is.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2002 Apr;63(4):357-66.
Prevalence of sexual dysfunction among newer antidepressants.
Clayton AH, Pradko JF, Croft HA, Montano CB, Leadbetter RA, Bolden-Watson C, Bass KI, Donahue RM, Jamerson BD, Metz A.
Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville 22903, USA. ahc8v@virginia.edu
BACKGROUND: Sexual dysfunction commonly occurs during antidepressant treatment. However, the reported rates of sexual dysfunction vary across antidepressants and are typically underreported in product literature. The objectives of this study were (1) to estimate the prevalence of sexual dysfunction among patients taking newer antidepressants (bupropion immediate release [IR], bupropion sustained release [SR], citalopram, fluoxetine, mirtazapine, nefazodone, paroxetine, sertraline, venlafaxine, and venlafaxine extended release [XR]) and (2) to compare physician-perceived with patient-reported prevalence rates of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction. METHOD: This cross-sectional, observational study was conducted in 1101 U.S. primary care clinics. Adult outpatients (4534 women and 1763 men) receiving antidepressant monotherapy were enrolled. The prevalence of sexual dysfunction was measured using the Changes in Sexual Functioning Questionnaire. RESULTS: In the overall population, bupropion IR (22%) and SR (25%) and nefazodone (28%) were associated with the lowest risk for sexual dysfunction, whereas selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants, mirtazapine, and venlafaxine XR were associated with higher rates (36%-43%). In a prospectively defined subpopulation unlikely to have predisposing factors for sexual dysfunction, the prevalence of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7% to 30%, with the odds of having sexual dysfunction 4 to 6 times greater with SSRIs or venlafaxine XR than with bupropion SR. Physicians consistently underestimated the prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction. CONCLUSION: Ours is the first study to assess sexual dysfunction across the newer antidepressants using consistent methodology and a validated rating scale. Overall, SSRIs and venlafaxine XR were associated with higher rates of sexual dysfunction than bupropion or nefazodone. Because antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction is considerably underestimated by physicians, greater recognition and education are imperative when prescribing antidepressant treatment.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2001;62 Suppl 3:10-21.
Comment in:
J Clin Psychiatry. 2002 Feb;63(2):168.Incidence of sexual dysfunction associated with antidepressant agents: a prospective multicenter study of 1022 outpatients. Spanish Working Group for the Study of Psychotropic-Related Sexual Dysfunction.
Montejo AL, Llorca G, Izquierdo JA, Rico-Villademoros F.
University Hospital of Salamanca, Psychiatric Teaching Area, University of Salamanca, School of Medicine, Spain. angelluis.montejo@globalmed.es
BACKGROUND: Antidepressants, especially selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), venlafaxine, and clomipramine, are frequently associated with sexual dysfunction. Other antidepressants (nefazodone, mirtazapine, bupropion, amineptine, and moclobemide) with different mechanisms of action seem to have fewer sexual side effects. The incidence of sexual dysfunction is underestimated, and the use of a specific questionnaire is needed. METHOD: The authors analyzed the incidence of antidepressant-related sexual dysfunction in a multicenter, prospective, open-label study carried out by the Spanish Working Group for the Study of Psychotropic-Related Sexual Dysfunction. The group collected data from April 1995 to February 2000 on patients with previously normal sexual function who were being treated with antidepressants alone or antidepressants plus benzodiazepines. One thousand twenty-two outpatients (610 women, 412 men; mean age = 39.8 +/- 11.3 years) were interviewed using the Psychotropic-Related Sexual Dysfunction Questionnaire, which includes questions about libido, orgasm, ejaculation, erectile function, and general sexual satisfaction. RESULTS: The overall incidence of sexual dysfunction was 59.1% (604/1022) when all antidepressants were considered as a whole. There were relevant differences when the incidence of any type of sexual dysfunction was compared among different drugs: fluoxetine, 57.7% (161/279); sertraline, 62.9% (100/159); fluvoxamine, 62.3% (48/77); paroxetine, 70.7% (147/208); citalopram, 72.7% (48/66); venlafaxine, 67.3% (37/55); mirtazapine, 24.4% (12/49); nefazodone, 8% (4/50); amineptine, 6.9% (2/29); and moclobemide, 3.9% (1/26). Men had a higher frequency of sexual dysfunction (62.4%) than women (56.9%), although women had higher severity. About 40% of patients showed low tolerance of their sexual dysfunction. CONCLUSION: The incidence of sexual dysfunction with SSRIs and venlafaxine is high, ranging from 58% to 73%, as compared with serotonin-2 (5-HT2) blockers (nefazodone and mirtazapine), moclobemide, and amineptine.
Anyway, I tried 7.5 mg last night. One night does not a pattern make, but it was satisfactory. Not great, not horrid. Fair to middling.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 17, 2003, at 9:25:19
In reply to Re: diet/evolution » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 17:42:05
Thanks for the review Larry. You pointed out very good points indeed.
One thing I want to tell you about the remeron is the first two days at a new dose leave me feeling very hungover and I suspect with 7.5 mg you will have the same as I did when I reduced to 15 mg. This is just my experience.
I didn't drink my milk or eat any yogurt before bed last night. I just ate a banana and slept decent. I also ordered the tryptophan and bought some soy protein. I talked with my brother who has PTSD and he uses the soy too. I will just add one thing at a time. Right now I am replacing my cow's milk with the soy protein.
Good luck with the remeron trial Larry and thanks yet again :)
Posted by Ron Hill on December 23, 2003, at 21:50:58
In reply to Re: Sleep Problems » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2003, at 17:43:51
Larry,
Given your absence, I suspect that you are having a difficult time. Just a note to send my best wishes.
When you feel well enough to post again, let me know what your pdoc said last Thursday.
-- Ron
-----------------------------
>> Lar, I have never had that problem with Remeron at the lower doses...in fact, many say it helps with sexual problems caused by other meds....I would DEFINITELY give it a try if i were you!
>
> OK, I will try it tonight....7.5 mg
>
> I see my shrink Thursday....might as well have done the experiment before I see him again.
>
> Lar
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on December 23, 2003, at 23:25:04
In reply to Re: Mr. Hoover, I hope you are okay » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on December 23, 2003, at 21:50:58
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/292881.html
This is the end of the thread.
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