![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 222. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 19:30:19
In reply to facing realities..., posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 19:15:08
I am sad of course. I find you to be a real asset to Babble, and I've found much wisdom in your posts over the years. I've also very much valued the relationship we built. Losing you would be a very bad thing for Babble.
But other than feeling and expressing regret, I don't know what else to do. Everyone has to do what is best for them. If people don't find that being at Babble is in their best interests, would it be fair of me to ask them to do otherwise? To approach things the same way my therapist and I did, for example?
Obviously I now and always do what I believe to be the right thing to do. I regret that my actions have caused some people pain. And the idea that I and the administration I am part of is the reason that people felt too much pain to be at Babble is part of the pain I previously spoke of. But if I didn't think I was doing the very best I could, I wouldn't be doing this at all.
I'm at a loss of what else I can do.
Posted by BayLeaf on February 24, 2009, at 20:03:08
In reply to Re: What my therapist says, for what it's worth. » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 17:19:24
Six T's. My former T and I actually sat down and reviewed both Babble and PC. He is very computer literate (he installed the networks in our local school system) then went off and did his own investigation.
In the end he told me to stay away from Babble (from what I recall he mentioned the arbitrariness of the civility rules, the cruelty of the lengthy public banning, and allowing suicidal posting as the biggies), and gave PC his thumbs up.
Bay
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 20:06:32
In reply to facing realities..., posted by twinleaf on February 24, 2009, at 19:15:08
Twinleaf,
I think the lack of responses could be seen as nobody really knows what to do because we have no control over the rules of this place. Dr. Bob sets the rules and the deputies enforce them on occasion.
We can explain till we are blue in the face, but Dr. BOb will not even respond in most cases, or I should say, responds in a unsatisfactory way. So people are more likely to just throw their arms up in disgust or they just give up. This has been the same story over and over again.
I think we should abandon the rules, it doesn't prevent others from saying what they want anyway. They are not being fairly enforced, it doesn't prevent any hurt, if anything it creates more hurt because veiled insults hurt more than just hearing the truth. With the rules, people appear "good" because they can walk the fine line of his rules of civility, pushing it as far as they can, or they use veiled insults, it still causes hurt feelings, even when it is "civil" within Babble standards.
I don't know for sure, but I can guess a very high percentage of people who have been blocked, was due to complaints about the rules of this place and how unfairly they seem to be enforced.
I just don't know twinleaf, it seems there is less and less interest in this place, people are just leaving because they give up.
Have you looked into other similar sites? I know of at least 2 which I am happy about. I think what pulls me back to babble is some of the people I don't want to lose contact with. But then I get weaved into the web again.
I really should listen to my T, but it is hard to leave some people I care about.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 20:14:25
In reply to My psychiatrist doesn't even own a computer but.. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on February 24, 2009, at 18:57:02
Your therapist has always reminded me a lot of mine.
Except of course that mine loves to give advice. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 20:27:34
In reply to Re: What my therapist says, for what it's worth. » twinleaf, posted by BayLeaf on February 24, 2009, at 20:03:08
> In the end he told me to stay away from Babble (from what I recall he mentioned the arbitrariness of the civility rules, the cruelty of the lengthy public banning, and allowing suicidal posting as the biggies), and gave PC his thumbs up.
>
> BayMaybe that's why there are different bulletin boards, just as there are different therapists. I lurk at a few bulletin boards on a couple of different topics than mental health. They vary widely in their rules and offerings to suit a different group of posters. There are doll or dog clubs that allow a fair amount of what would clearly be incivility on Babble. And clubs where no disagreement at all is allowed on board. It is disappeared. I've seen boards where the original topic is all but forgotten in competing posts between followers of political parties. And boards where no discussion of politics or religion is allowed.
The rules may appear arbitrary to some. But they arise because Dr. Bob isn't in favor of making up the rules as he goes, or outlawing things because they cause discord. He likes rules that can be applied boardwide, without regard to who is involved. They are really the reverse of arbitary, in that they aren't at all up to the will of the administrators. We have to apply the three post rule even if we don't much like it, for example, because it would be unfair not to if historically it has been applied.
Public blocking is upsetting. But so would posters just disappearing when they were blocked with no explanation of why, and with the posts involved deleted.
Suicidal posts are upsetting, yes. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to admonish someone for posting suicidal thoughts. Or to delete posts that are a cry for help. Trigger warnings are added, when appropriate.
It's a balancing act, and different boards balance on different areas.
Can't it just be like therapists? There are therapists who aren't to my taste, but are helpful to others. There are boards that I lurk at on those other topics that I would never dream of posting on because they aren't right for me. That doesn't mean they aren't valuable to the people who find them helpful.
Which is my therapist's overarching viewpoint on internet bulletin boards, actually.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 20:53:43
In reply to Re: What my therapist says, for what it's worth., posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 20:27:34
> Which is my therapist's overarching viewpoint on internet bulletin boards, actually.
By which I mean that my therapist would never say "Babble is bad" or "Psychcentral is bad".
He might say "I don't think this is a good policy because...." and he might urge me to try to change a specific policy. Or he might say that I'm unlikely to change the policy, is there any way I can change my reaction to the policy?
He might laugh when I talk about Dr. Bob and say something like "Well, I know a lot of psychiatrists who would say something just like that." Or "I can see why you're angry". He'd assume that Dr. Bob and I see things differently, not that Dr. Bob was a bad person or meant to be unfair. He'd talk to me about ways that I might express myself so that Dr. Bob would hear what I was trying to say. And discuss what I should do should Dr. Bob hear and understand me perfectly well, but still disagrees with me.
He'd ask me what my perceptions of the situation are, and what I think someone else's perceptions of the situation might be, and he would try to find a way to view the two perceptions together.
My therapist understands that there is pain to be had whenever people gather together. And that most people are just doing the best they can. He understands that something can be less than healthy for me, without being inherently unhealthy or bad.
Even if he told me I should leave, it wouldn't be because he thought Babble was bad. It would be because he didn't think Babble was the right place for me to be at this point of my life, for this or that reason. Or because he thought I was no longer getting from Babble more than I was giving. Or that I was no longer capable of giving what Babble needs at this point of time.
My therapist isn't one for black and white. He's one for shades and shades of grey.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:23:15
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 19:30:19
I have a problem with rules where you can't say how another poster made you feel. Sure we can talk with I statements and all that,(the babble way) but the truth is, that people do hurt others, whether intended or not, and sometimes it would be useful for those people to know that.
Being upfront with how we feel without having to talk Babble Riddles, will make thing more clear. Possibly allow those who did hurt others, a chance to say they are sorry, or that they don't understand why the other person is hurt. When we have to guess what the Babble Riddles mean, sometimes we might actually perceive what the other person is saying is worse than what was originally felt. OR we may completely dismiss it because we don't understand what the riddle meant.
I think it is important for those to know they hurt others, most people don't really mean to do that, but if they know it when they do it, they can change it. They can improve their communications skills.Babble Riddles just makes things blurry in meaning and doesn't give either side to work things out for fear of being blocked. I think there is a huge difference in someone being blatantly uncivil and someone who are just expressing how they feel to someone in a calm, but truthful way.
Babble Speak reminds me of what a lawyer trains a client who is going to be on the stand. only say this, not this, but yet tell the truth etc.Trying to tell someone how you feel makes one sometimes feel even more frustrated because they have to talk in Babble riddles and hopefully the other person can even understand the blurry message.
Can someone show me another site that has these kind of nit picky rules of how to say something?
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:27:25
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:23:15
What is sad is that I spent about 10 minutes of time, hours of time total in trying to talk to Dr. Bob and his rules.
But it is a waste of time, he doesn't respond, and is not open to talking about his rules. So no changes, just wasted breath.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 22:42:55
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:23:15
As far as I know there is absolutely no problem with doing what you just described.
The problem comes from the fact that people's perceptions differ as to what actually happened. And it's very easy to mix judgment into facts.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're talking about stuff that happens off board spilling on board.
I agree with you that current rules are woefully inadequate in this, and that the result is that often remarks are made that leave posters who aren't "in" on off board issues very confused and uncomfortable.
There is certainly room to discuss the on board/off board problem. Should actions that involve Babble but did not occur on Babble be covered by civility guidelines? Is it better to allow the resulting disagreements to be discussed on babble in the hopes that a resolution can be reached? Or would it be better to ask posters who have an off board disagreement to work it out off board? Or would it be better to allow the discussions, but only with full fact disclosure?
For example, if one poster has a problem with another poster resulting from an off board disagreement, should babble policy be
a) to allow the one poster to speak of an issue with a "friend" who....
b) to ask posters to please not bring off board disagreements to the board?
c) to allow the poster to speak of the issue, as long as they follow babble rules, and as long as they disclose that the "friend" is a fellow babbler so that third parties won't accidentally be uncivil or drawn into a discussion that may involve two people they care about
And of course there are likely other possibilities.
If it is allowed to discuss it on board, should both parties be allowed to give their version of the facts so that the usual on board transparency would occur? What if the facts aren't just facts but interpretations and judgments?
I think this is a valid area for Admin discussion, although of course it's best to use hypotheticals.
And it is *always* ok for a poster to apologize to another for anything they think they need to apologize for.
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 22:53:34
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:27:25
And as far as Dr. Bob is concerned...
It's been my observation that he likes his rules. He's put a lot of thought into them, and he thinks they benefit Babble. Babble is shaped by Dr. Bob's values.
For example, Dr. Bob likes clear and unambiguous rules. At times the deputies might like to have a "Please cut it out" instead of creating a rule for every possible contingency. But it's not going to happen because that's not what Dr. Bob believes is best. He has heard and understands the contrary arguments, but all things considered, he thinks the current system is best.
Dr. Bob values transparency. No matter how many brilliant arguments are made in favor of deleting posts or making administrative actions off board, it's not going to happen. Babble reflects his values in this matter.
It's possible to change Dr. Bob's mind. But the likelihood of doing so depends on changing his view of what you're discussing.
Of course, I'm not actually an expert on all things Bob. Sometimes he does a 180 that leaves me scratching my head and ranting and railing at him before I acknowledge that Dr. Bob is the immovable object, and I am not enough of an unstoppable force to shift him an inch.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 0:03:21
In reply to Re: facing realities... » HappyChaiTea, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 22:42:55
I think I'm posting too much tonight, without thinking things through enough. I apologize if I have been overly hasty in expressing my thoughts.
Posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 0:05:18
In reply to Re: facing realities... » twinleaf, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 20:06:32
I think you have described one of the main problems perfectly, It's the way criticisms, put-downs and insults can be carefully crafted so that they pass the civility rules. About a year ago, one poster, well-known for doing this from time to time, was given a PCB- a very rare occurence for her. She replied that she had spent ONE HOUR carefully trying to craft her (hurtful) message so that it would pass the civility rules. She had no awareness, seemingly, that it would be far better not to be insulting people- her only concern appeared to be that she had not been quite clever enough to avoid a civility warning.
Those subtle insults can hurt much more than outright upsets or differences of opinion. The person on the receiving end cannot object- just send in a notification, which, as we know, almost always just silently disappears. If there is one thing about Babble which my analyst strongly disapproved of, it was this inequality- the person who does the hurting is essentially protected and free to discharge their anger and aggression, while the person who has been hurt will be punished for doing a healthy thing- speaking up for him/herself.
Babble had a lot of great things going for it before the poor deputies got the job of administering the guidelines. They HAVE to do it very exactly, and just the same each time, What the deputies can't do is take the whole picture into consideration. Sometimes they jump onto the tiniest things- as I mentioned above- it's like one deer tick missed in the process of combing my spaniel's long hair. When things like that happen, it's impossible not to feel just as you do- the guidelines are not being applied equally or fairly.
I guess it was unrealistic of me to think that Dr. Bob or the deputies would be interested in making this site into a place like it used to be- where hurts would be rare, and no-one's therapists would be urging them to avoid it. I was just hoping so, as I am attached to the site itself, and to a number of posters, and that is all hard to give up. This is not just a matter of personal preferences in mental health sites, similar to personal preferences in therapists, as Dinah seems to believe. It is a matter of right and wrong- of either providing a forum which can help and support people as they grow healthier, or of saddling them with one which will occasionally knock them backwards into more distress and suffering.
Since my suggestions for a reconsideration of how things are run here has apparently fallen on deaf ears, I have one more rueful, end-of-the-line suggestion, In my opinion, every deputy has, at times, been more hurtful and insulting here than I have ever been. If they, too, had to struggle through a series of increasingly long blocks, they just MIGHT begin to understand a little of what we are talking about...
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 1:20:51
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 0:05:18
I don't ever remember such a place.
As long as I've been here there's been hurt and long blocks.
I know deputies never blocked anyone for a year for cursing without an asterisk. And while I suppose it might be within the realm of possibility that circumstances might be such that we'd be forced to do that, I can't imagine what those circumstances might be.
I suppose that the only people who will believe it are the people who believe in us, but deputies try very hard to be far more understanding and generous than Dr. Bob was.
I can't convince anyone of that though.
And apparently I have not succeeded in my efforts to go far beyond civility to reflect the caring and respect I feel. So it's probably best for me to retire from the conversation at this point.
Posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 2:33:25
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 1:20:51
My own experience of Babble several years ago is just as real to me as yours is to you, and I stand by the reality and truth of that experience. The fact that it was such a warm, helpful and lively experience for me then is the reason I have been asking the administration to have a sincere look at what has happened to Babble in the last few years. But it's very clear that our respective views, and our memories of what we each experienced, are now so totally different that there isn't a basis for any further fruitful discussion between us.
Posted by seldomseen on February 25, 2009, at 6:42:27
In reply to Re: facing vastly differing realities » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 2:33:25
Twinleaf,
What is, in your opinion, the single most important thing that needs to be changed about babble that would make it more comfortable for you to participate here?
I've noticed in the past that threads like this tend to go all over the place (and I usually help with that), but let's bring it back to at least one thing that would help you. I think we can re-build the discussion from there.
Seldom
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2009, at 6:53:08
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 0:05:18
> I think you have described one of the main problems perfectly, It's the way criticisms, put-downs and insults can be carefully crafted so that they pass the civility rules. About a year ago, one poster, well-known for doing this from time to time, was given a PCB- a very rare occurence for her. She replied that she had spent ONE HOUR carefully trying to craft her (hurtful) message so that it would pass the civility rules. She had no awareness, seemingly, that it would be far better not to be insulting people- her only concern appeared to be that she had not been quite clever enough to avoid a civility warning.
>
> Those subtle insults can hurt much more than outright upsets or differences of opinion. The person on the receiving end cannot object- just send in a notification, which, as we know, almost always just silently disappears. If there is one thing about Babble which my analyst strongly disapproved of, it was this inequality- the person who does the hurting is essentially protected and free to discharge their anger and aggression, while the person who has been hurt will be punished for doing a healthy thing- speaking up for him/herself.
>
> Babble had a lot of great things going for it before the poor deputies got the job of administering the guidelines. They HAVE to do it very exactly, and just the same each time, What the deputies can't do is take the whole picture into consideration. Sometimes they jump onto the tiniest things- as I mentioned above- it's like one deer tick missed in the process of combing my spaniel's long hair. When things like that happen, it's impossible not to feel just as you do- the guidelines are not being applied equally or fairly.
>
> I guess it was unrealistic of me to think that Dr. Bob or the deputies would be interested in making this site into a place like it used to be- where hurts would be rare, and no-one's therapists would be urging them to avoid it. I was just hoping so, as I am attached to the site itself, and to a number of posters, and that is all hard to give up. This is not just a matter of personal preferences in mental health sites, similar to personal preferences in therapists, as Dinah seems to believe. It is a matter of right and wrong- of either providing a forum which can help and support people as they grow healthier, or of saddling them with one which will occasionally knock them backwards into more distress and suffering.
>
> Since my suggestions for a reconsideration of how things are run here has apparently fallen on deaf ears, I have one more rueful, end-of-the-line suggestion, In my opinion, every deputy has, at times, been more hurtful and insulting here than I have ever been. If they, too, had to struggle through a series of increasingly long blocks, they just MIGHT begin to understand a little of what we are talking about...twinleaf,
You wrote,[...my suggeations...apparently fallen on deaf ears...].
If you are referring to all the ears here, I hear you and look forward to read from you and othere here more concerning the issues at hand.
Lou
Posted by Partlycloudy on February 25, 2009, at 7:13:06
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 1:20:51
> And apparently I have not succeeded in my efforts to go far beyond civility to reflect the caring and respect I feel. So it's probably best for me to retire from the conversation at this point.I keep seeing this. Over and over. Discuss and retreat when it becomes uncomfortable. There is no resolution, there is no defensible answer to the charges made.
My therapist is right - this is not a healthy environment. That is her concern for me.
pc
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2009, at 8:30:07
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on February 25, 2009, at 7:13:06
>
> > And apparently I have not succeeded in my efforts to go far beyond civility to reflect the caring and respect I feel. So it's probably best for me to retire from the conversation at this point.
>
> I keep seeing this. Over and over. Discuss and retreat when it becomes uncomfortable. There is no resolution, there is no defensible answer to the charges made.
>
> My therapist is right - this is not a healthy environment. That is her concern for me.
>
> pcpc,
You wrote,[...there is no...this is not...]
I am unsure as to all of the aspects that could be involved in what you have posted above. Could you add to what you posted and if you could then we could have the opportunity to have dialog concerning such if you are willing? Could you take a chance on me?
Lou
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 8:45:33
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on February 25, 2009, at 7:13:06
Why do you think that's the point I became uncomfortable? I extend myself past my discomfort all the time on this board.
I withdraw from a conversation when I have tried my best, and it has been wanting. I withdraw from a conversation when I don't feel I can be useful any more to a poster or anyone else.
What would you have me do at that point?
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 8:52:34
In reply to Re: facing vastly differing realities » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 2:33:25
Twinleaf,
I know you don't have your babblemail turned on, but could you contact me through my blogsite,http://psychoflowers.blogspot.com/
we can talk without you giving me your email if you like, just write anonymously.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 9:13:15
In reply to Re: facing vastly differing realities » twinleaf, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 8:52:34
This whole issue is getting so tiresome. We know the problems of the rules and the fact that they can't be administered with consistency across the board to everyone.
With the notification system, certain people are almost ALWAYS targeted while the popular members get no notifications, or their notifications are ignored.If Dr. Bob doesn't want to help his deputies with such a huge job, then the rules need to be canceled. Because if only certain people getting the ax, while others get off free, EVEN WITH NOTIFICATIONS, all hell is going to break loose EVERYTIME> HELLO DR> BOB??????????????????????? ARE YOU LISTENING????????? IF it is YOUR rules that YOU love SO much, maybe you need to rethink them? OR at least be involved when they are being discussed ON ADMIN> of YOUR site!!!
IF you are going to let people govern themselves, then get rid of the deputies and rules. Rules only work if they are applied to everyone, everytime.
SInce notifications are not dealt with for WEEKS, it shows that notifications are too much to handle anyway for deputies.
Posted by seldomseen on February 25, 2009, at 9:21:09
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on February 25, 2009, at 7:13:06
In my opinion, a healthy environment is one which there are no charges made. Instead, a problem is presented, discussed as to whether it is actually an actionable problem, and, if so, people then offer solutions to the problem in the attempt to improve the situation.
I think when someone feels as though they have contributed all they can to the discussion, then it is right and appropriate that they withdraw.
So I propose that we, as best and constructively as we can, define what the problem at hand actually is.
So far what I'm hearing is that
The rules at babble are, for some, promoting an unhealthy, if not outright harmful, environment that is not conducive to their mental health.
In particular the rules seem (1) nitpicky, (2) capriciously applied (3) to silence those that have been hurt or are currently hurting.
So far, the solutions explicitly offered have been to (1) do away with the rules altogether (2) provide mandatory civility buddies.
Other potential solutions, though not explicitly stated but what I inferred would be to (1) Use our reactions to the rules (or babble in general) in actual therapy (2) Improve the notification system and/or (3) Quit babble.
First, have I defined the problem correctly?
Second, are there other potential solutions?
Third, are we willing to even try to find them?Just my thoughts on a very complicated matter.
Seldom.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 9:31:30
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by seldomseen on February 25, 2009, at 9:21:09
Unless the message if for me.
THanks
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2009, at 9:43:59
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 0:05:18
> criticisms, put-downs and insults can be carefully crafted so that they pass the civility rules. About a year ago, one poster, well-known for doing this from time to time, was given a PCB- a very rare occurence for her. She replied that she had spent ONE HOUR carefully trying to craft her (hurtful) message so that it would pass the civility rules. She had no awareness, seemingly, that it would be far better not to be insulting people- her only concern appeared to be that she had not been quite clever enough to avoid a civility warning.
>
> In my opinion, every deputy has, at times, been more hurtful and insulting here than I have ever been.Please don't post anything that could lead others (posters or deputies) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 4 weeks
period of time since previous block: 1 week
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual or group) = 3
block length = 11.67 rounded = 12 weeks
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
In reply to Can those respond, remove my name, on this line, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 9:31:30
I think that on the face of what was written on this thread alone, without any inferences being made, this could count as a vortex.
It's a shame he's unwilling to step forward when at his request as well as our own good judgment we step back. Over and over again he supports us off board and promises to show that support on board.
He's not a ghost. But I wish he would keep his promises to the deputies.
What is, is. I can fight it and do no good but to hurt myself. I can try to work with what I've got and make the best of it. Or I can quit.
I care about Dr. Bob, and I care about Babble, and about the only reason I would quit is if I thought the majority of Babblers believed what was written about me in this thread. Because in that case, the last nearly eight years of my life when I have tried to forge relationships and be of service here would have been an utter waste of my time and pain.
I'm way too stubborn to quit otherwise.
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