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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by caraher on December 5, 2008, at 15:55:48
I'm puzzled by the 2-week block for rayww's post concerning the suspension of Parliament in Canada. As I read the post announcing the block (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20081115/msgs/866822.html) it sounds like the offense was for failing to explicitly label her views as opinions. So if instead of writing
"It is the three party leaders mainly who are causing the fuss, neither of whom are capable of leading the country as individuals"
she had written
"It is the three party leaders mainly who are causing the fuss, neither of whom are capable, in my opinion, of leading the country as individuals"
that part would have been rendered officially "sensitive" and "civil?"
And similarly, if she had started
"Division's purpose is to divide focus, and destroy the government."
with the words "In my opinion,..." that would have been OK?
In my opinion, these changes do not materially affect either sentence, neither of which I found remotely uncivil or insensitive (and I say this as one who routinely finds himself holding views diametrically opposed to hers). If the rule is that, in order to be "sensitive" and "civil," every statement that is not a statement of fact must be accompanied by a disclaimer that it is not a fact but an opinion, very few posts (IMO) anywhere on Babble could be considered both "civil" and "sensitive." It seems to me that every Babble post is presumably the opinion of its author, and therefore adding explicit verbiage to that effect is at best redundant.
I strongly disagree with her opinion on the issue, but found no cause to take offense at the way she expressed it. Outside of Babble, part of the practice of civility is not taking offense when none is offered. (Indeed, that's the source of much of the outlandish humor of Sasha Baron Cohen's rude character "Borat;" Borat spews patently offensive statements and many of his victims bend over backwards to accommodate him, behaving as civilly as possible in circumstances that could easily lead to fisticuffs. His victims are civil to a fault!) It seems to me that the enforcement mechanism for the rules of Babble can itself appear uncivil and even insensitive, under the ordinary meanings of those words.
At the same time, it's also clear that adding the words "in my opinion" is not sufficient to render intrinsically insensitive/uncivil content sensitive and civil. (Jon Stewart does jokes about the guy who says, "No offense, but..." and goes on to say something to which one cannot help but take offense, a perfect example of this.) I think rayww has been trying to avoid such posts since her block (which came in discussing some highly charged issues), so I'm disappointed that she's been slapped with a 2-week block for a slip that I find undetectable.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on December 5, 2008, at 21:51:24
In reply to rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by caraher on December 5, 2008, at 15:55:48
Babble policy has always been that putting "in my opinion" before something uncivil does not alter the fact that the content is uncivil. So "In my opinion, President Bob is an idiot" would not be any more civil than "President Bob is an idiot".
We've been discussing the Politics board with Dr. Bob recently. He'd prefer posters to post positively about the leaders they support and the political positions they hold, rather than negatively characterize other political figures or political positions. The idea is to be respectful of those who voted for those political figures or hold those political positions.
Politics and religion are difficult to discuss, particularly on a board primarily designed for support and education on mental health issues. Dr. Bob wishes the board to be a place for political liberals and conservatives and everyone in between to feel included and welcome. Because of this, he asks that we not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
We're trying to run things by Dr. Bob as much as possible during this period of time, so that we can do the best we can do in following his desires on how that board should be administered.
The best rule is to stick to positives about what you believe and to be respectful that others may not hold your views. I recognize that this may not be conducive to the most spirited of debates. However, given the overall purpose of Babble, Dr. Bob thinks it's the best course of action. There are undoubtedly places on the internet where more spirited discussions can take place.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on December 5, 2008, at 22:04:25
In reply to rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by caraher on December 5, 2008, at 15:55:48
I should also say, however, that while adding "in my opinion" doesn't make an uncivil statement civil, being respectful of the fact that different people hold different opinions on political topics can change the tone of a post and can foster a civil and respectful atmosphere.
Posted by Sigismund on December 5, 2008, at 23:19:28
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » caraher, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 5, 2008, at 21:51:24
>political liberals and conservatives and everyone in between
I understand that 'liberal' means something different in the US to here, but that is a pretty small range, even so.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2008, at 23:36:38
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by Sigismund on December 5, 2008, at 23:19:28
Well, here it would mean far right to far left and everything in between. But while that's the customary way to think about it, I suppose its' really three dimensional, at least.
Posted by fayeroe on December 6, 2008, at 11:19:25
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » caraher, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 5, 2008, at 21:51:24
I saw a PBC that was noted on a post for November 29, 2008..This was this week. I'm afraid that I think it is stretching PBCs a bit when one reads posts that far back as as to "police" the board.
My take on the administration is that you guys are stretched thin as it is. Taking time from today and giving it to posts (had to be several read) that are a week old just seems odd to me.
If someone pushed the notification day before yesterday (I think that is correct) for a post that is a week old....why now?
I understand that the Politics Board has had some turbulent times recently and I can see that we're under the microscope now..but I don't think that we're that bad. I don't know how many times that I've read that "we're going to be paying closer attention" now. A little attention would be fine but putting us on notice that we deserve to be watched closer than others seems unfair to me. Feels to me like you need to put a big red X on our foreheads. Obviously, I'm ****ed and hurt.(anger/being scared usually translates into readl hurt)
As for as (when I was told and what you said, Dinah) talking "POSITIVELY" about politicians....how can that be? Can I not say that I disagree with someone's actions that affect me directly? If I say that the cuts in Medicare, from this administration, is really hurting me, does that count for a PBC?
Methinks that "cracking" down on the Political board will mean that less people will post and it will be absolutely dull as dish water now.
I do not understand Bob's reasoning about all of this "positive" posting. But then, I have never understood Babble..so my investment will once again go down.
I know that the political board was doing fine until recently. One or two incidents doesn't mean that the entire board of posters is going to implode, does it? Can I even refer to the past without getting a PBC?
Pat
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 11:56:03
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » Deputy Dinah, posted by fayeroe on December 6, 2008, at 11:19:25
The Politics board until recently had a relative consensus of opinion, which makes for peace, but not necessarily civility. It wouldn't be fair to enforce administration in such a way as to return the board to consensus. It wasn't right of us to ignore that board when there *was* consensus, really. There might not have been disagreements on the board, but that doesn't mean there weren't hurt feelings from those who chose not to respond.
Speaking only for myself, I didn't really like administering the Politics Board or the Faith board. It was difficult to understand what Dr. Bob's wishes were. And it is emotionally charged and difficult. The high feelings make it a place where it causes me personal distress to get involved. As a someone who volunteered to help Dr. Bob out, not to moderate the board, I didn't think it unreasonable to ask Dr. Bob to take a more active role on those boards. But things are as they are. There's no point in wishing they were different.
As to why the late action, as I said, we're consulting with Dr. Bob, so responses will take a bit longer.
I can certainly understand the desire of the people who post on Politics for it to go back as it was. But I will not, for my own sense of right and wrong, administer any way that is not consistent. And I thought posters who complained that Politics Board administration was lax had a point. Dr. Bob has agreed to give us feedback on posts so that we get an idea of what is and isn't ok on that board.
One benefit of having deputies administer on that board is that we hold a wide range of personal political positions, and we're careful to get input from each other on how we're "reading" posts. It's all to easy on that board to think "But this is true, so it's not uncivil. They're wrong so they must be uncivil." I think the team approach is one way to get beyond that, and to understand issues from many sides.
Posted by fayeroe on December 6, 2008, at 16:08:16
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » fayeroe, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 11:56:03
> The Politics board until recently had a relative consensus of opinion, which makes for peace, but not necessarily civility. >
> One benefit of having deputies.I disagree about the consensus of opinion..I have always believed that people didn't always agree with me and I certainly didn't always agree with them. But, we always stayed within the confines of civility and stayed friends.
I know for certain that we have convseratives and liberals on the board. How? We talk in Babblemail and email.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 16:33:00
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on December 6, 2008, at 16:08:16
It is my observation only that civility complaints come less frequently from those in agreement with the posted content. I will concede that I could be mistaken.
It doesn't matter, except as to explain how it came to be that we could continue to press Dr. Bob to take a more active role on that board past the point where it was perhaps sensible to expect that from him.
Posted by fayeroe on December 6, 2008, at 17:50:34
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » fayeroe, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 16:33:00
> It is my observation only that civility complaints come less frequently from those in agreement with the posted content. I will concede that I could be mistaken.
>
> It doesn't matter, except as to explain how it came to be that we could continue to press Dr. Bob to take a more active role on that board past the point where it was perhaps sensible to expect that from him.Dinah, before we commit to press Dr. Bob about helping out here more, could we construct a padded room for the brave souls that state their needs? Someone could throw some of those big foam bats and boxing gloves in!
I just don't feel that I can help Babble or myself by begging right now. As you know, I believe that Bob is going to do whatever he wants to do at any given moment. I suspect that when it comes to priorities, the running of Babble is not even a blip on his screen. Sorry.....I've been here and begged too many times to believe in the Easter Bobby.
Pat
Posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2008, at 19:25:05
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » fayeroe, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 11:56:03
>The Politics board until recently had a relative consensus of opinion, which makes for peace, but not necessarily civility.
That is right.
Whether it is fixable is another question.
There have been posts made that have angered me, and of course the reverse would apply. I see this as unavoidable.
People feel that these are important issues and speak accordingly.FWIW, I didn't find Rayww's post uncivil.
Additionally, I know what she believes, and if I choose to open her posts then it's my lookout, IMO.
Posted by Toph on December 7, 2008, at 13:54:09
In reply to rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by caraher on December 5, 2008, at 15:55:48
An obscure Norwegian philosopher once said, " A little spice improves every dish, some spices ruin everything. "
Posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 9:29:28
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by Toph on December 7, 2008, at 13:54:09
> An obscure Norwegian philosopher once said, " A little spice improves every dish, some spices ruin everything. "
Okay, so I'm Norwegian and I made it up. But like the Bhut Jolokia chili there are some things best left out of the soup.
Then there's nutmeg...
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2008, at 10:24:03
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 9:29:28
Well, I believed it because your dogs hold you in such high esteem. AND you've been to the Rock and Roll hall (cap for h won't work) of Fame and I haven't.
Standing in the rain, with his head hung low
Couldnt get a ticket, it was a sold out show
Heard the roar of the crowd, he could picture the scene
Put his ear to the wall, then like a distant screamHe heard one guitar, just blew him away
He saw stars in his eyes, and the very next day
Bought a beat up six string in a secondhand store
Didnt know how to play it, but he knew for sureThat one guitar, felt good in his hands
Didnt take long, to understand
Just one guitar, slung way down low
Was one way ticket, only one way to goSo he started rockin
Aint never gonna stop
Gotta keep on rockin
Someday hes gonna make it to the top
Posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 15:51:15
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility' » Toph, posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2008, at 10:24:03
Basically Pat what I'm trying to say in a highfalutin way is that I think most of us appreciate posters who in moderation spice things up here, but there should be no room for bigots in Babble.
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by this poster are the sole beliefs of this individual and are not necessarly those of the management nor are they expressely reflective of the written rules of conduct.
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2008, at 17:01:12
In reply to Re: rayww's latest block and 'civility', posted by Toph on December 9, 2008, at 15:51:15
I totally agree with you....highfaluting or pretentious works for me.
This is the end of the thread.
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