![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 164. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 16:47:29
In reply to Re: Research project » Dr. Bob, posted by BayLeaf on November 8, 2008, at 9:17:29
> Bob - Are they going to fake a disorder, or are they going to be honest? I don't want to offer support to people who are BS'ing us. That's unkind to Babblers who would be concerned and worried about people posting here. That would be upsetting people with mental illness, just for....sport? Call it education - but it's not what we signed up for. The agreement when we signed on said we weren't part of an experiment.
>
> If you can't answer that one question, how could anyone post to any new user?? They could just be actors reading a script, as happens in medical schools..."ok, you pretend you have chest pain".
>
> So, are they being told to be honest, and use Babble as it's intended??
>
> BayFriends,
It is written here,[...are they going to fake a disorder or are they going to be honest?...]
Mr. Hsiung has specified that the participants {...will be here for support and education...}
I ask: What in Mr. Hsiung's post, if there something there, could give a foundation for the statement in question?
It is written here,[...people who are XXXing us...]
I ask: Where is there in Mr. Hsiung's post that gives a foundation for anyone XXXing us?
It is written here,[...the agreement..said we wern't part of an experiment...].
Mr Hsiung has specified in his post here that {...Babble will be part of a new reserch project..participants in this research project {...may be >joining our community< here...}and that those participants are here for support and education.
I ask: Is there something in Mr. Hsiung's post here that says that we are part of an experiment? If anyone can point that out to me, I would appreciate it.
It is written here,[...use Babble as intended?...].
Mr. Hsiung has posted that the intention of the participants is not to study members and that the participants will be here for the same purpose as the existing members for support and education.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 16:55:48
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by wishingstar on November 8, 2008, at 11:51:59
> For me, and I think many others here, this really will effect the trust and safety I think I'll feel on this site and with posters here. I think you need to take this into consideration as a major extraneous factor that will be affecting your results. I dont know if everyone will respond to these new posters the same way we would typically respond to a new poster or anyone on this board now that this research has been mentioned. As the person above said, if I see a brand new poster, I'm automatically going to be hesitant and feel unsure about really opening myself up to that person, either with my own "stuff" or in response/support to their "stuff", because it may well just be a research subject. While I realize that there research subjects are real people and possibly have emotional issues just as "real" as anyone else on this site, I will wonder about their motivation to be on the site, and whether they plan to hang around or are just here for a specific reason. Where are you drawing these people? Is this freshman psychology students or people drawn from the university counseling center or something else? Is there incentive for them to participate?
>
> I feel very uncomfortable with this. I feel that it will likely decrease emotional safety and consequently posting to some degree at a time where babble already seems to be suffering and people already are feeling a little unsteady.
>
> But perhaps all that is exactly what you're studying. Unfortunately, all of us already here are real people with real emotions mixed into babble and what happened here as well. I have a graduate degree in psychological research myself so I'm quite familiar with how all this works, but I hate to feel that something like this is being sacrificed in the name of research.Friends,
It is written here,[...this will effect the trust and safety...]
I ask: How would the fact that the participants in question are here for the same reasons as the existing members effect the trust and safety? If anyone can respond to my question, I wouldd appreciate it.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:03:14
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 12:08:01
> All I can say now is that this raises so many issues for me, some of which have been mentioned by Bayleaf and wishingstar. I'm really quite taken aback about this -- which seems to have happened without any opportunity for current participants-- without whom, by the way, you have no project, one would think-- to be consulted beforehand. I don't like that this is done as a fait accomplis.
>
>
> NadezdaFriends,
It is written here,[...without... participants...to be consulted beforehand...].
Mr Hsiung has posted before the new mwmbers have arrived, for he writes,[...soon...].
I ask: What kind of consultation is required , if any, and why?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:09:43
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 12:41:22
> How long is this study? I think if we're asked to contribute to medical research, we should at least know what it is. Curiosity may keep some of us around, but I know many will feel unsafe.
Friends,
It is written here,[...I know many will feel unsafe...]
I ask: Unsafe about what? And how could one know what many others will feel?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:20:35
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Ricker on November 8, 2008, at 14:01:58
> Look forward to chatting with them, not sure why it's causing soo much concern? Dr. Bob's notice was out of respect for us. These "new" memebers have the right to post, seek support, share experience, and perhaps help "us"!
>
> I get the feeling some have claimed this site as "theirs"?? Well, it's the internet, so unless this site becomes a closed door, hand-picked members only club, I say welcome.
>
Friends,
It is written here,[..not sure why it is causing so much concern...].
hummmmmmmmmmmm
Lou
Posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
Seldom.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:29:34
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by turtle on November 8, 2008, at 15:09:35
> I think that choosing to just drop this news and saying that you won't explain is a poor choice.
>
> Informed consent means that the subjects will be told the premise of the study. They will just tell us who they are and what the study is about when they get here. But by choosing not to tell us yourself, you are setting up an environment of secrecy/suspicion before they even get here. That's not fair to anyone, and not a great thing to do to a mental health community.
>
> I'm also a little concerned about the influx of that many new people at once changing the dynamics of the board. No matter what community is faced with that prospect, that many new people at once will be difficult to absorb and can cause disruption if not well thought out. (I'm not against newcomers, I'm one myself!) Will they understand Babble before they get here?
>
> When I try to imagine what the purpose might be, I'm not against any of the concepts I come up with. (Seeing if online support enhances therapy? Training new therapists who are in therapy themselves?) What I do object to is not telling us at least as much as the new people themselves will know. Why?
>
> Thanks,
> Turtle (Turtles need to be very very safe. We just want to understand.)
>Friends,
It is written here,[...will be difficult to absorb...].
I ask: Difficult to who?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:38:59
In reply to Re: Research project » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 15:09:51
> Is it a requirement of your research project with these 230 people that they actively participate in Psychobabble in the same manner as we do-with honesty and good faith- for information, help with decision-making, sharing of our joys and sorrows and support during difficult times?
>
> I feel insulted, used and manipulated that you are turning Psychobabble into a research project in which you expect me to participate fully, but which you "can't get into the nature of". You seem to expect that I will do exactly what you want, without you having to inform me and ask for my informed consent, as is always done in well-planned research projects. I find this extremely disrespectful to all of us who have entrusted so much of ourselves to this forum.Friends,
It is written here,[...I feel insulted...you are turning Psychobabble into a research project..you expect me to..you expect that I will..,disrespectful to all of us who...]
I ask: What could cause from reading Mr. Hsiung's post here to feel as depicted here?If any one can post a foundation to that here, I wouild apppreciate it and could respond accordingly.
Lou
Lou
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 8, 2008, at 17:53:19
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
I'm not really sure what to make of this. It is easy to be over-reactive to unexpected information and the likelihood of change. I think the problem is the lack of information. I see that Dr. Bob has a dilemma - he must also respect the confidentiality of those participating in the study/research. If he announces that these people are in therapy or other personal details, might this also conflict with their confidentiality as participants? Obviously, we won't know who is a new member in the normal sense and who is participating as part of the study. However, if someone were to disclose that they were taking part in the study, and we had been told that all participants are schizophrenic or are CBT patients for example, then we would have knowledge about them that they had not disclosed to us.
I also see potential conflicts between us being informed about the study and the participants being informed about parameters that need to be kept hidden. Just as a study involving a medical trial requires a set group of participants to unknowingly take a placebo.
So the question - how to overcome these conflicts while respecting us, the existing members of this community? Perhaps Bob has no obligation to take this into account - afterall, he is the service-provider and we are choosing to take part and post to this public space. However, the effects of alienating the existing community will jeopardise the research he wants to conduct - with no posters, with no existing community, psychobabble will be no more. There is the risk that if enough of us are discontent with the planned study, that people might try to sabotage/boycott the role of Psychobabble in the research (I'm mentioning this as a foreseeable possible outcome rather than as a suggestion or threat).
A couple of points. I would like to ask exactly how and in what ways we will be contributing to your medical research by continuing to use the boards during the study? It seems to me that you are ethically obliged to do so. Of particular interest, how will the archives function in the research? Will they take on a certain role - could they potentially - and if this role is published in a paper, might they take on a different function than they have now as simply being the archives of a forum i.e. might they be singled out as a beneficial reading resource for therapy patients or trainee therapists. These are possibilities that people here could well become concerned about.
Secondly, and maybe this is persnickety but, as someone who has studied experimental psychology, it is basic knowledge that those who participant in our studies are not 'subjects' but 'participants'. The use of 'subjects' is considered out-dated and demeaning.
Witti
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2008, at 17:59:02
In reply to Re: Research project - who is sponsoring it » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on November 8, 2008, at 16:30:26
> Dr. Bob
> My post did not go through. I would like to know who is sponsoring this research project. Is it the University of Chicago? Is it NorthShore University Health Care? Is it just you personally? Wil these 230 participants be MH professionals? Medical student? Psychiatry residents? Patients?
>
> You know you must let people know the parameters of the research project or you risk an ethics complaint if not an outright class action lawsuit.
>
> Will you be using old postings from when you used the Universiy of Chicago as part of your email address?
>
> This is preposterous. I am thinking I should be contacting my attorney right now.
>
> Zeba
Zeba,
You wrote,[...research project..]. Mr. Hsiung has posted,
[...PB will be part of a new research project soon. Participants of this research project may be joining our community here...].
Now the {participants} are not the members here for the participants are going to join this community. {This research project} as I read the grammatical structure of Mr. Hsiung's post,is outside of Mr. Hsiung's research. I see this as the members here being able to have more members to receive support and education from and to enhance the variety of the topics posted. Thos participants are comming from some place, but does that matter? If so, why?
Lou
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 8, 2008, at 18:04:04
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
Seldom,
I think the problem is that the lack of information leads peoples' minds to wander...
For example, within the realms of us not being a part of the experiment, the study could bring in 230 people intolerant and/or negative toward those with mental illness, to see whether the experience of taking part in an on-line community changes their view of the mentally ill. Or it could be that these 230 are being paid to take part in this community and that the dynamics could drastically change when there is a sudden influx of members and then after the study-period, all these seemingly new supportive members suddenly disappear. I think we do become attached to those who post here - if someone posted avidly for 6 months and then just stopped it can bring some sadness - now imagine the impact of this potentially happening with 230. Likewise the presence of the normal members and the 'participant members' could lead to a divide in the community - two groups with each its own identity of sorts. People might decide not to respond to threads started by 'the other group' etc. If those taking part in the study know, for example, that all those in the study have some things in common e.g. all in therapy for the first time, they might feel safer engaging with others who claim to be in the study and not those who came to the forum for other reasons.
These are just hypothetical situations (and perhaps rather far-fetched) to illustrate the point that the study might well have an impact on us despite our not actually being participants.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 18:50:29
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
I suppose I can imagine types of statistical research that only involved the 230 people-- things like how many posts they posted over a certain period of time, or an analysis of their posts only, in some very concrete way-- such as how often they brought up certain types of problems, or how much they interacted, or in what ways.
My problem would only arise if the content of discussions were part of the research, because in that case, we would in some sense be subjects of the experiment too-- because the posts to which people reply are inevitably part of the content of their reply.
Even though my personal identity might not be in question, some people might not feel comfortable with that, and I have some issue with disrupting the flow of the board in such a way.
I have some other thoughts, which I may post later.
Nadezda
Posted by Angela2 on November 8, 2008, at 19:05:15
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Dr. Bob,
This may have been asked, as I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but Why can't you tell us what the research project is about until it is over with? Did I read that right in your post?
Angela
Posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
In reply to I just don't get all the upset., posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 17:25:50
I have to agree with seldomseen here. He/she (? sorry) made good and relevant points about this whole situation.
No offense at all, but you guys are getting a little carried away. Calm down. It's reasonable to ask questions-- i'm curious about some of the details too-- but you folks are being far too critical.
1) Use of this site is entirely voluntary (and public), and, as someone else mentioned, we have no personal ownership over this site (i.e., this site is not *yours*).
2) You haven't even waited to see how this will play out or affect things differently. At least wait until some of these potential worst-case scenario fears potentially played out before complaining about them!
3) It's the same day as Dr. Bob's original post. You haven't even waited to give him a chance to try to respond to your questions, not that I think he really has any obligation to anyway.
4) (What Lou Pilder and seldom seen said.)It seems to me we're kind of acting like a kid who asked their parent to buy them a toy and then getting mad at our parent when it isn't exactly like we hoped and thought it would be.
I apologize if this was not civil enough. I don't mean to offend anyone. I do feel a bit frustrated though when people are precipitously critical (not that I am immune to this weakness either, of course).
> Dr bob was quite clear in his post that we are not the subjects of this research project.
>
> No one is experimenting on us. That's why consent is not required.
>
> Like everyone, I don't know the particulars of the study, but it seems to me that babble is just a part of the *place* that the research is conducted. We just happen to be in this place.
>
> We have been here for a long time telling our stories to strangers, I don't see how participants in a research study being here should change that.
>
> I mean what if the participants in the research program receive direct benefit from babble? I know I have and am glad to hopefully extend that benefit to the actual subjects.
>
> Seldom.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
Thanks~Jade
Posted by Deneb on November 8, 2008, at 20:03:14
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
I hope we are just getting carried away. Maybe Dr. Bob wouldn't bring in people that would probably hurt us?
I know I'm probably getting carried away, not thinking straight.
At PsychCentral, tons of people join up everyday and it's not scary or anything.
It's different there though. I mostly lurk or chat. It's too big there.
I hope it's going to be OK.
Posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
It would be more helpful to me if you stated why you don't have a problem with the research. It's understandable that many here would have questions.
I don't agree that Bob has no obligation- or at least that he shouldn't respond at all-- to the questions. I think it would at least be respectful; plus it's a bit unsettling to have a lot of new posters-- if that is going to be the case--. Perhaps none of our concerns will be borne out, but it's better for people to express them, if they have them, than not to-- and feel less jittery about who new people are, about responses and subjects, etc-- and , in addition, that some secret activites are being carried out, which they don't know about.
I've noticed in that past that some people suspect that Bob is doing research, and seem uncomfortable or upset with that thought-- so I'm concerned that the research will negatively them-- and possibly others. That's one among several concerns I have.If Bob can help people feel more secure and safe about the whole subject-- then this will have accomplished a great deal.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » Questionmark, posted by Nadezda on November 8, 2008, at 20:04:43
I feel that one thing we can all do to avoid over reacting is not to change our names. That way we know who is really already part of the community. I'm also wondering about fake illnesses? I too have met some wonderful people here lately and do trust them completely just to reassure some who may be reading. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 20:56:18
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
I certainly hope that any support you've found here will remain, and that posters won't treat our fellow posters any differently, whatever we might feel about the administration of the site.
I personally am going to assume that any new posters will be no more likely to be insincere about what they post than what would generally be possible on any anonymous internet forum.
I'm glad you found us, and I hope you find the same warm welcome you've already found.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 20:02:19
> Hello, maybe this has already been asked, but can you please post or answer my post as to when this study begins? As in what actual day, and for how long it will last? When new posters arrive on board? I'm new (week?) and don't want anyone thinking I'm posing as part of your study. I've made a couple of supportive friends and would like not to lose them. No offense intended.
>
> Thanks~JadeHello again, thanks for the response, are you not able to give a time frame regarding when, exactly, "participants" will be on boards?
~Jade
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on November 8, 2008, at 16:37:09
You are absolutely right, Zeba (Ozland-RealMe-I hope I have remembered right!) It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been, just as our own roles will be changed. If he did that, posters of long or short duration would feel a bit more respected for what they have contributed and received in these recent years. Everyone could also then make an informed decision as to whether continued participation will contribute to their own continued growth and well-being, or whether it will not.
I am waiting.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 22:19:33
I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
In reply to Re: Research project » Zeba, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:32:29
> It would not be difficult for him to give us a brief, accurate statement of what the research project is about, and what the role of the large number of new posters is going to be- undoubtedly, it cannot be the same as ours has been,
I don't know that I can agree. From Dr Bob's wording -- and I'm with 10der, I think he is very, very careful with every single word -- I'm not sure he can tell us more. He didn't say that *he* was doing research, so it may be someone else's project. He may not have their permission to disclose more.And even if he could tell us more, someone else has already pointed out that disclosing more information would introduce bias into the study, and invalidate the results. Either our behavior would change, or the participants' behavior would change -- either way, the results would lose some of their resonance.
He's said that the people who may come here would be the participants in the study, and I trust Dr Bob not to lie to us. I think if he meant that researchers would be coming here, he's have said that, so I think the people who may come here really are the ones being studied. Since this community exists in a certain form, I can't believe that there is any intent to disrupt the established patterns.
Obviously, I don't post as often as I used to, and I am much more selective in what I say -- after a painful experience left me feeling more than a bit alienated, but that's a different story. Nonetheless, I've been at Babble since 1997, and I do feel connected to it and to many people here. I'm kinda excited by this, and I hope something good comes of it. In fact, I'm kinda excited that there will be new stories on the boards, new names, and maybe more activity.
Who knows? Maybe some of the participants who do show up will decide to stick around and enrich our community? I'd like to think that is a possibility.
Peace.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 1:31:10
In reply to Re: Research project DINAH » JadeKelly, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:07:47
> I'm afraid that I'm just a poster, with all the same concerns posters have. I may help out with Administration with regard to civility, but I'm not "Admin" per se. Only Dr. Bob can help you with the questions.
>
> I hope he finds a way to spend time with us, to allay any concerns we express, for the benefit of all.Dinah, thanks for responding anyway. Maybe we'll find out from Dr. Bob.
~Jade
Posted by Zeba on November 9, 2008, at 2:37:33
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 0:04:42
As someone who has published research, you are to get permission of the subjects. He is saying we are not the subjects, but this is only partially true. I have participated in many studies as an undergraduate student too. One is not so vague and evasive about what one is going to do. I will be contacting the University of Chicago on Monday. I do not take this lightly. In the meantime I will contact Dr. Bob. It may be a good study, but he is going about this in a way that I consider unethical, Check the ethics guidelines for psychiatrists. I will be asking other psychiatrists I know what they think.
Zeba
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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