![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 62. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 21, 2007, at 4:53:57
A brief thought..
If we are no longer allowed to "pressure" someone into seeking treatment, then how can you allow any post that threatens suicide?
Other wise, someone can post "I took xx pills and am now feeling yyy" yet there is ~nothing~ anyone here can do.
Its starting to feel vageuly farcical..
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 8:17:13
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 3:51:02
I never can figure out where trigger warnings should go.
I don't think there is much we *can* do except say I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
For two reasons.
One, there really is so much Babble can do. We're here for supporting each other, but how can we do any more than that? We can't call the police. We can't confiscate drugs. We can't sit with someone until the next day when they can go see their pdoc.
And two, many Babblers can only bear to babble if they *know* that that's all they can do. Knowing our limits of ability reassures us of our limits of responsibility.
How can you deprive us of the protections for both those of us feeling like harming ourselves and those of us interacting and trying to help those who feel like harming themselves.
Even my therapist has his boundaries where he folds his arms and tells me I need to be in a hospital, and he can't be the protection I need.
You're not here, and your boundaries are in place by your absence. Why discourage others from helping someone in the best way they know how (and the only way they can), and keeping in place an important boundary at the same time.
When does encouragement to do the wise thing become pressure?
What would you suggest instead?
I'll try to remember that not everyone has therapists as available as mine, that ER isn't always a help (surely I know that here right now), and that help lines aren't always all that helpful. And I can empathise with that. But I can't do the job of the facilities that aren't doing their's.
But if I'm not allowed, even in broken record mode, to suggest that someone contact help IRL, and remind them that Babble is no real life substitute in times like this, then I would not be able to respond at all to people in crisis.
Posted by fayeroe on January 21, 2007, at 10:32:01
In reply to Re: helping - Trigger? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 8:17:13
> I never can figure out where trigger warnings should go.
>
> I don't think there is much we *can* do except say I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
>
> For two reasons.
>
> One, there really is so much Babble can do. We're here for supporting each other, but how can we do any more than that? We can't call the police. We can't confiscate drugs. We can't sit with someone until the next day when they can go see their pdoc.
>
> And two, many Babblers can only bear to babble if they *know* that that's all they can do. Knowing our limits of ability reassures us of our limits of responsibility.
>
> How can you deprive us of the protections for both those of us feeling like harming ourselves and those of us interacting and trying to help those who feel like harming themselves.
>
> Even my therapist has his boundaries where he folds his arms and tells me I need to be in a hospital, and he can't be the protection I need.
>
> You're not here, and your boundaries are in place by your absence. Why discourage others from helping someone in the best way they know how (and the only way they can), and keeping in place an important boundary at the same time.
>
> When does encouragement to do the wise thing become pressure?
>
> What would you suggest instead?
>
> I'll try to remember that not everyone has therapists as available as mine, that ER isn't always a help (surely I know that here right now), and that help lines aren't always all that helpful. And I can empathise with that. But I can't do the job of the facilities that aren't doing their's.
>
> But if I'm not allowed, even in broken record mode, to suggest that someone contact help IRL, and remind them that Babble is no real life substitute in times like this, then I would not be able to respond at all to people in crisis.good post, Dinah.
Posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 11:12:26
In reply to threats Vs pressuring, posted by NikkiT2 on January 21, 2007, at 4:53:57
I agree, I think this is frustrating, a poster asks for help, and I offer what I would do in that situation. If I continue to offer help, it may be deemed as pressuring, yet in some cases the original post could be deemed as pressuring me for a response in the first place.
Poet
Posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 11:52:51
In reply to Re: threats Vs pressuring, posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 11:12:26
Ditto both of you. I think there should've been a distinction between threats (not as in "crying wolf", the other way) and between "pressuring". To me they are completely different. While it could be argued that both are subjective, one suggests something helpful, and the other attempts to ascribe blame to a fellow poster - it makes an outside person "responsible" for the actions/thoughts of another.
thanks, El
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 14:16:11
In reply to Re: threats Vs pressuring, posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 11:12:26
> I don't think there is much we *can* do except say I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
>
> When does encouragement to do the wise thing become pressure?
>
> What would you suggest instead?
>
> if I'm not allowed, even in broken record mode, to suggest that someone contact help IRL, and remind them that Babble is no real life substitute in times like this, then I would not be able to respond at all to people in crisis.
>
> Dinah> I agree, I think this is frustrating, a poster asks for help, and I offer what I would do in that situation. If I continue to offer help, it may be deemed as pressuring
>
> PoetSorry about making this even more complicated. Would "broken record mode" feel like pressure?
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
If you were feeling really distressed, what would you want a friend to do?
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 14:23:20
In reply to Re: threats Vs pressuring, posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 11:12:26
> I agree, I think this is frustrating, a poster asks for help, and I offer what I would do in that situation. If I continue to offer help, it may be deemed as pressuring,
That's how I interpreted Dr. Bob's post on Social about pressuring regarding getting help. I think it's the repetition of a suggestion, perhaps within the same thread or regarding the same "event" that might be considered pressure. I also think that when someone says something along the lines of, "I've told you before to do X, but you won't do it." Or, "You don't listen to me." Or something along those lines. I've seen that type of response from frustrated folks who are trying to help elsewhere online. I can understand the frustration, but I also think it becomes less supportive at that point.
> yet in some cases the original post could be deemed as pressuring me for a response in the first place.
I suspect that will be a tricky call and will never be one that all involved parties agree on.
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 15:27:30
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 14:16:11
Well, if trying to help is going to get me in trouble, I'm not going to try to help at all.
That's just my call.
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 15:31:14
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 15:27:30
I mean, it's not like I have much to offer, other than what you have just deemed pressure.
I'll leave it to those with more confidence in their abilities to offer something else.
Posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 14:16:11
>>>>>>Sorry about making this even more complicated. Would "broken record mode" feel like pressure?
Not unless all versions of it were considered as such - but that'd be impossible. People repeat statements of upset in threads, and people repeat statements in threads.
In terms of your example, it sounds a little different once you include the possible inbetween lines.
>>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.
>>>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.
>>>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.
>>>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.
>>>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.
I think it'd have to somehow go both ways. Without seeing it as such, you'd have to make arbitrary characterizations of the distress tone in people's words. See the problem I have is that, when saying that suggesting the appropriate thing to do (which you agreed to, or at least that it wasn't inappropriate) when an individual is suicidal or talking of overdose, is pressuring, it suggests that posters engaging in advice broken-record-mode feel a less signigicant type of upset or hurt, than broken record distress posters. Would it come down to who could write the most emotional prose? I mean, how could that be judged?
>>>>>>If you were feeling really distressed, what would you want a friend to do?
Again, "really distressed" or suicidal/talking of overdose?
If I was the latter, and I only had phone or computer contact with this friend (they couldn't reach me or intervene in person), then I'd expect any rational person to call my parents to come to my place, or call the police, if I refused to take care of myself in a similar way -- especially if I'd ever carried it out before. I'd hope my friend would think that my life/health is worth saving and react according to the level of seriousness my distress merited. And I think they would make a call to someone cause they'd know that I didn't take such things lightly, and they probably would be scared sh*tless that I was talking in such extremes. I think that not being able to be with someone IRL makes a significant difference to the situation, and limits possible responses.My friend would also probably really push for me to call my pdoc if I was ever that distressed regularily so that they could experience my state first hand. If anything I assume they'd also want to make sure that my pdoc always knew how often my mood swung in that direction so that medication, or the frequency of sessions could be titrated. They would want me to do what was best (in the short term, but also the long term) for my mental and physical health.
Once I was in a more lucid state, I'd actually expect my friend to always advise that I involve my T and/or pdoc in my suicidal tendencies and vacilating emotions. Plus, I'm sure my friend would be uncomfortable and feel overwhelmed if they ended up being the repeated keeper of my mortality - I wouldn't be shocked if they'd want to shift the burden to someone more capable. For my benefit and theirs.[However, if I'd "only" said that I was so sad, and never felt lonelier in my life, was afraid I was gonna get fired from my job, was having a fight with my significant other, couldn't stop crying my eyes out....etc..... then I'd expect my friend to listen with open ears, talk me through it, perhaps offer a bit of advice or anecdote, make plans to get together with me in person, try to make me laugh a little, whatnot. But that's not what we're talking about here.]
El
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 16:41:46
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
> [However, if I'd "only" said that I was so sad, and never felt lonelier in my life, was afraid I was gonna get fired from my job, was having a fight with my significant other, couldn't stop crying my eyes out....etc..... then I'd expect my friend to listen with open ears, talk me through it, perhaps offer a bit of advice or anecdote, make plans to get together with me in person, try to make me laugh a little, whatnot. But that's not what we're talking about here.]
> ElI think someone who was suicidal or someone who was thinking of hurting himself/herself would also benefit from being listened to, made to laugh, etc.
If everyone just tells the person to go to a professional and the professional doesn't know how to make the person feel better what then? There is no one else to turn to. I think friends can make a big difference, even more so than a T.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 16:47:02
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 14:16:11
You know, this is really bizarre.
If I post something I'm thinking about therapy, I rather expect to be told that it would be a good thing if I mentioned this to my therapist.
If I post that I'm in love with my therapist, I rather expect I'll be told that's not at all unusual, that I ought to read "In Session" and that I ought to find out how my therapist feels about this and discuss it with him if it's safe to do so.
If I post that my therapist or husband is abusing me, I rather expect to be told that I need to think about leaving him.
If I post that I just have or am about to take more of a medication than I'm supposed to, I rather expect to be told that I should get me to an ER and/or call my pdoc or therapist and/or tell my husband.
If I post that I broke out in a rash shortly after taking Lamictal, I rather expect I will be told that I should contact my pdoc asap.
There are only so many answers, Dr. Bob. You've left me with nothing to say about anything at all.
Posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 14:16:11
I may be mistaken, by at the risk of misattributing intentions to people, I think what' s happening here is that a specific situation--which may or may not be reminiscent of other situations, but which is very much the point here-- is being discussed abstractly because we don't feel it's fair to discuss it specifically.
ie we don't want to name names, but we're discussing something that derives so much from a particular, unrepeatable situation, that it we really are making false substitutions, in speaking abstractly.
And I think this discussion is going seriously awry-- and generalizations here are not very useful or even very germaine.
I may also be mistaken, but I believe what was pressuring in the situation with Deneb (I'm sorry, but I think this is the only way to make sense of this discussion) was that Happyflower kept bringing up the threats that Deneb had made, and was unable to let the situation go. Others also responded, to a situation that had been really resolved-- ie it was essentially over.
Plus it would, I feel, have been much better to discuss this privately, rather than publicly--which also would have avoided the pressuring aspect.
I don't think repeating good advice is per se pressuring-- even if it isn't the most helpful strategy (although-depending on the situation, and person-- it may be).
Plus, I don't think it's really what's at stake here.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 16:56:19
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
You may have something there. I often find myself feeling completely neutral and sympathetic about a situation until Dr. Bob contributes his thoughts, then I respond more or less roughly in the opposite direction than I assume he wishes to lead me in.
The fact that he likes to generalize, in fact has a passion for generalizing, may have a lot to do with my characteristic response.
If he stayed more specific, I'd probably be far more sympathetic to what he was saying.
But discussing specifically isn't really appropriate, so we're left with this.
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:30:07
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
>.
>
> I may also be mistaken, but I believe what was pressuring in the situation with Deneb (I'm sorry, but I think this is the only way to make sense of this discussion) was that Happyflower kept bringing up the threats that Deneb had made, and was unable to let the situation go. Others also responded, to a situation that had been really resolved-- ie it was essentially over.
>
Ummmm. I must say that you might be mistaken, or don't have all the information. Happyflower was getting continuiously over a period of over a month getting several (more than 10)comments in Chat, babblemail and in posts, what felt like threats of sucide due to Happyflower remaining "uninvolved" in the situation.(protecting myself by ignoring), but after a month, it got really distessing, so I asking for help with a "do not post to me". Then I got blocked, and couldn't talk about it for 3 weeks, the situation was not satisfactory taken care of in my view and I posted about the
"do not post" violation in admin. and got blocked for it. So if Happyflower's "do not post to me" was inforced,not ignored, and I wasn't continuesly what felt like harrasment to me several times for longer than a month after the "do not post", than Happyflower would have been glad to shut up about it. But it wasn't, so that is why I am leaving because after over 2 months of this, I had enough.
Posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 17:43:59
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
>>>>>>I may also be mistaken, but I believe what was pressuring in the situation with Deneb (I'm sorry, but I think this is the only way to make sense of this discussion) was that Happyflower kept bringing up the threats that Deneb had made, and was unable to let the situation go.
I didn't interpret things that way myself - so I appreciate hearing your take Honore. That could be one part of it, but for me personally that's not the only issue that's part of this broad "pressuring" discussion. THe others I know are: As far as I know, I believed HF was upset about feeling pressured herself to interact when she'd already tried to request a DNP. Some of my posts have concerned feeling "threatened" by "if you don't..." suicide posts. Some other posts on Social were about the "pressuring" of repeating suggestions. THat's all I could remember off the top of my head. Though I do think that slightly different ideas are being combined in threads, diluting them all.
To defend HF somewhat, she could only respond, and make a statement after a situation seemed to have blown over cause she was blocked at the time. She *had* to wait that long. I'm not saying I would've made the exact same posts myself, making the same focus, choosing the same wording, but I'd still think that she deserved to have her administrative queries responded to. We've since been informed of the amended DNP rules, the inabilities to list requested post/quotes, and this new idea of getting PBC's for "pressuring", so I'd assume now, all this stuff would be dealt with off-board through emails.
Plus I'd guess that some people would debate the idea of "being resolved", with just "blowing over". And even if it was "resolved", doesn't mean that it was explained adequately for everyone who frequents the board. I just think it seems natural that confusing rules and applications would need to be re-addressed more than once. But in a civil way of coarse. And I'd never want to put a time limit on how quickly one must "get over" something that was personally upsetting - I'd never expect that of someone anywhere else.
Regarding the civilness of addressing suicide blame-threats specifically, it's a type of behvahiour, an action, and to me, the fact that few or many posters are connected to such behaviour is irrelevant. As a comparison, if I was the only one here who posted multiple lewd comments, and consequently someone wanted to start a thread voicing their opinion on such things, then I don't think it should be seen as accusatory, or whatnot, just cause no one else on the board at the time has turned to the same behaviour. Yes it appears to be about only ME, and MY lewd behaviour, but that's only because *no one else is doing it* too - I'm the only one at the time choosing to engage that way. In this case, speaking in generalities will seem connected to one person, how could it NOT be? But then, is one only allowed to talk about a posting behaviour, or type of situation, if *many* posters are doing it, instead of 5 or 3 or 1?
Usually issues of any type are only brought up when they become relevant. Someone gets blocked for typing a questionable statement on the Politics board, people come to admin to debate the fairness of that block, the application of the rule that resulted in the block etc. It's not about the person, but the behaviour, and how that behaviour relates to rule enforcement. Personally, if the topic was somehow suggested to debate (with no real examples prompting the discussion) then I'd still take part and have the same views, and make the same generalized statements.
But apparently now, all this must occur off-board. Which is fine by me. Gotta have precident somewhere. I actually do think some of the situations will be resolved now, or at least closer.
thanks El
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:44:04
In reply to Re: helping » Honore, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:30:07
When I directly in chat asked her to please leave me alone the other day, and she wouldn't respond at all. I asked several times, to not babble me, chat to me or about me, and or post to me, PLEASE. I got NO response, then I felt very angry and I gave up because I was also getting comments from another babbler to leave chat and go somewhere else to chat. I have tried directly, and through babble rules, just to be left alone but the rules don't protect those who need it.
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 17:48:56
In reply to And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:44:04
I didn't respond to HF in chat because she said she didn't want me to talk to her or about her. What was I supposed to do? Chat with her and then she could get me into trouble?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 17:51:05
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 17:48:56
I also never babblemailed any threats to HF. I swear on Hammie's grave. I admit I wrote the wrong things in chat before, but I have never babblemailed any threats to HF. I didn't Babblemail HF after she told me to do not post to her.
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:55:25
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 17:51:05
I am not the only one on babble that has had
this
happen to them. I can't disclose who,without permission but she was
as also having the same thing happen to her when she deceided to disengage.
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 18:00:41
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 17:48:56
Maybe you don't know this Deneb, but I can read the whole page of conversation you had before I got into chat. You were talking about me, so please lets be honest here.
Plus when I asked you to please leave me alone, you continued to talk about me, "what happyflower is talking to me"? "so does this mean her "DNP" is not in effect? I have asked you directly, and have issued a DNP, and nothing has stopped this behavior at all. Why can't I protect myself? Why can't I be left alone?
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 18:03:57
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was » Deneb, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 18:00:41
Yes, I was talking about you. I needed to talk to someone about things or I would explode.
You talk about me too.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 18:06:38
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 18:03:57
HF, I'm not angry at you anymore. I forgive you. I just wish we were friends again. How come we can't get past this and be friends again?
Deneb*
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 18:08:49
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 18:03:57
> Yes, I was talking about you. I needed to talk to someone about things or I would explode.
>
> You talk about me too.
>
> Deneb*Then how about a deal? You leave me alone, and there would be no need for me to try to protect myself from your pressure of killing yourself if I don't talk to you, which is what this is about in the first place. I just want peace, that is all.
Posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 18:14:06
In reply to Re: And the straw that broke the camels back was » Deneb, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 18:08:49
Deneb,
You want to just move on and be friends. Well I am sorry that isn't possible for me, I can forgive you but
being friends is asking a lot right now. What I really want is to be left alone by you. Someday you will understand that your actions do effect your relationships either in good ways or not so good ways. You have to accountable for yourself and your actions, saying you are sorry isn't always "excused"
from people or forgotten.
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