![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:42:58
Dr. Bob,
Maximum block length is an issue which affects the safety of all psycho-babblers.I think it's crucial that all babblers have the opportunity to respond to this (even currently blocked babblers). Having eaten dinner with you and other babblers and a deputy last week I was impressed at how receptive you were to getting feedback about our experiences. I'm concerned, however, that the people who choose to go out to dinner and post on the Admin board may not be representative of psycho-babblers in general.
Since this is such an important issue, I think it would be a good opportunity to seek feedback from ALL members.
Would it be possible for you send out a survey to all users?
************************************************
Blocks are designed to protect the psycho-babble community from incivilities and rule violations.A change to blocking policy has been suggested, namely to change the maximum block length.
Under the current blocking system, the maximum block length is one year (52 weeks).
Your answers to the following questions will remain anonymous, and will not be published with any identifying information- NOT EVEN YOUR POSTING NAME.
Would you vote to change the maximum block length?
yes / noIf yes, please write the number of weeks that you would suggest as the maximum block length
___________weeks
please return this survey as soon as possible, deadline for receiving replies is Dec. 31st, 2006.
Thank you for your participation in psycho-babble.
Data and results will be made available by Jan 31st.Comments (optional):
Please understand that your comments MAY be made public. Please see the privacy policy in the FAQ section of the Psycho-Babble website.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#anonymous
********************
Dr. Bob, I am willing to perform the data analysis of this survey data, because I think it is so important. I'm sure you can figure out a way to forward the survey responses to me while preserving anonymity. I would be happy to enter the data onto a spreadsheet to be published publicly, should others wish to verify my analyses or look at other issues.
My report would include the following statistics:
1) number of yes and no replies
2) the number of replies supporting an increase in the maximum block length
3) the mean, mode, median number of weeks for those supporting an increase in maximum block length
4) a histogram of the distribution of responses supporting a change in the maximum block length
5) the number of replies supporing an decrease in the maximum block length
6) the mean, mode, median number of weeks for those supporting a decrease in maximum block length
Dr. Bob, until we know how babblers feel about this, we can debate in circles about maximum block length. Please note that I did not include any items about whether the poster is currently blocked, currently an active poster, or anything about their blocking history. I don't think a poster's personal history should change their right to participate in this process.
What do you think of such a survey?
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2006, at 13:31:41
In reply to MAXIMUM BLOCK LENGTH, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:42:58
This is great. Ought to appeal to Bob. Appeals to me.
(((((li))))
Muffled
Posted by verne on December 8, 2006, at 13:32:04
In reply to MAXIMUM BLOCK LENGTH, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:42:58
My recommendation for maximum block lengths:
1. minor infractions such as foul language: 1 week
2. personal attacks: 4 weeks
3. all other infractions: 2 weeks
You could break down the severity of the infraction in the same way crimes are broken into classes of felonies and misdemeanors.
But then to interpret Babble Law we would probably need specialized Babble lawyers too.
I like the idea of making the time fit the crime with the longest blocks reserved for the worst kinds of personal attacks. I would also recommend no graduation of length for repeat offenses except in cases of personal attack.
As I've said before, if the blocks were a reasonable length there would be far less wasted psychic energy and time discussing them. Blocks would come and go without the fanfare. I'd post less. (It's a win-win for everybody)
As it stands, babble punishment has become a force of its own. Many are dragged into this vortex never to return or they are spat out worse for wear after a good spin cycle.
The rules should work unseen within the game just as the best umpires are the ones we don't remember.
verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 2:48:36
In reply to MAXIMUM BLOCK LENGTH, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:42:58
> Maximum block length is an issue which affects the safety of all psycho-babblers.
Thanks for designing this study :-) but I'm not sure it's the direction I'd like to go in right now. Referendums don't always lead to good policy, though surveys may be useful in certain circumstances.
> I think it's crucial that all babblers have the opportunity to respond to this (even currently blocked babblers).
What about babblers who've chosen to leave the site?
> the people who choose to go out to dinner and post on the Admin board may not be representative of psycho-babblers in general.
True, but those who respond to surveys may not be, either...
> Would it be possible for you send out a survey to all users?
Yes, but what about users who don't want to receive it?
> until we know how babblers feel about this, we can debate in circles
Even if we knew, we might continue...
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 11:39:36
In reply to Re: survey, posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 2:48:36
> > Maximum block length is an issue which affects the safety of all psycho-babblers.
>
> Thanks for designing this study :-) but I'm not sure it's the direction I'd like to go in right now. Referendums don't always lead to good policy, though surveys may be useful in certain circumstances.I would not make any policy recommendations. I would only make information available.
> > I think it's crucial that all babblers have the opportunity to respond to this (even currently blocked babblers).
>
> What about babblers who've chosen to leave the site?What if they've chosen to leave because of a perception that blocks and other punitive measures were the work of a monarch/oligarchy and they felt powerless to effect any changes?
> > the people who choose to go out to dinner and post on the Admin board may not be representative of psycho-babblers in general.
>
> True, but those who respond to surveys may not be, either...I think we would get MANY more responses than people who can fit around a dinner table.
Perhaps you are sqeamish about this because you don't want all psychobabblers to participate in policy changes. Perhaps you are only comfortable eliciting ideas from a select few. Perhaps you are afraid that giving people a vote will somehow empower the masses and cause instability.
I guess it would help me understand the administration better if I could understand the motivations for controlling information that could help us understand where the typical psychobabbler "stands" on the issue of maximum block length.
Are you committed to making this place "work" for the vast majority, or for only a select few, or perhaps only for Dr. Bob?
> > Would it be possible for you send out a survey to all users?
>
> Yes, but what about users who don't want to receive it?Don't open the babble-mail. Simple.
>
> > until we know how babblers feel about this, we can debate in circles
>
> Even if we knew, we might continue...A debate cannot exist in a vacuum of information.
A debate cannot exist when we are all talking fiction
A debate cannot exist when the debaters have no powerBut perhaps this place is not about debate and making things 'right' for the majority. Perhaps Dr. Bob intends to make things 'right' for some selection of people. Perhaps Dr. Bob is only concerned with himself.
"It's not about me it's about you."
actions speak louder than words. Why not give us some tools to make changes around here? One such tool might be data on block-length caps.
I have no predictions about how that survey would turn out. I have no vested interest in my own personal blocking punishment. I want to follow the crowd. I just don't know what the crowd thinks about it, because the only people who are participating are arguing for change (it's rarer for a person to start a thread like "Let's keep the status quo. Psycho-babble is working just fine for me!")
So?
I heard a great quote on TV last night.
"Without an agitator, we're just left with a washtub full of dirty drawers."
Posted by zenhussy on December 9, 2006, at 12:53:26
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 11:39:36
>>>Are you committed to making this place "work" for the vast majority, or for only a select few, or perhaps only for Dr. Bob? <<<<
Dr. Hsiung has answered previous versions of this question on board... sometimes even expressed in a Star Trek analogy....
Posted by verne on December 9, 2006, at 14:12:20
In reply to Re: survey, posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 2:48:36
Dr Bob writes, "Even if we knew, we might continue..." in response to another poster's observation - "until we know how babblers feel about this, we can debate in circles."
"Even if we *knew* (the outcome), we might continue..." (debating in circles) he says.
Circular debate about the guidelines and punishment may very will be the point of this experiment or study.
Good exercise for the mice.
verne
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2006, at 14:42:57
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 11:39:36
*********> What about babblers who've chosen to leave the site?
What if they've chosen to leave because of a perception that blocks and other punitive measures were the work of a monarch/oligarchy and they felt powerless to effect any changes?**********
a great answer to Bob's question that he uses to answer a question that Babblers ask....
as Zen says, the archives are the answers.
i came, i saw, i left. i came back and i rebelled and i was blocked for 16 weeks and have no feeling whatsoever of "investment" in this site now. except for the blocking system. it will ALWAYS bother me.
i firmly believe that it is detrimental to a person's mental health to be blocked for more than a month. and that should only happen if it is something really offensive.
there are many people who only have an online life and when that goes because they tilted at the windmill a little too much, it hurts them and i believe causes feelings that i wouldn't want to have any other human to experience. not from my hand..........
it's a little kingdom here and i don't see any changing that now or ever.
i check in, out of curiousity, occasionally and i always see that things are the same.......
pat
Posted by jylisnotlaughing on December 9, 2006, at 15:03:47
In reply to Re: survey » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2006, at 14:42:57
well said pat..
great to see your name
(justyourlaugh)
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2006, at 16:03:43
In reply to Re: survey » fayeroe, posted by jylisnotlaughing on December 9, 2006, at 15:03:47
> well said pat..
> great to see your name
> (justyourlaugh)
thank you....i miss you too.....xoxo pat
Posted by madeline on December 9, 2006, at 16:34:04
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 11:39:36
personally, I think "the effect of escalating block length on poster behaviour" must be one of Dr. Bob's research questions.
I just don't think he is going to allow this to be changed.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 17:11:17
In reply to Re: survey, posted by madeline on December 9, 2006, at 16:34:04
the offer still stands for my data analysis talents should they be needed. General Linear Models, Generalized Linear Models, Logistic Regression, Parametric and Nonparametric tests of all size and shapes. I can even calculate averages, and if you throw me a few extra peanuts I'll read up on heirarchical linear modelling.
thank you all for your pessimism.
i should stop wasting my time.
pessimism is often realism.
LlurpsieBlossom often unrealistic.
Posted by fayeroe on December 9, 2006, at 19:46:02
In reply to okay i give up, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 17:11:25
> the offer still stands for my data analysis talents should they be needed. General Linear Models, Generalized Linear Models, Logistic Regression, Parametric and Nonparametric tests of all size and shapes. I can even calculate averages, and if you throw me a few extra peanuts I'll read up on heirarchical linear modelling.
>
> thank you all for your pessimism.
> i should stop wasting my time.
> pessimism is often realism.
> LlurpsieBlossom often unrealistic.i didn't offer my post up as pessimism. i offered up the experience that i've had with Bob here and blocks. i told the truth as i see it and as i've experienced it.
i'm sorry if my answer hurt your feelings. that was not my intention at all. pat
>
>
Posted by ClearSkies on December 9, 2006, at 23:50:32
In reply to okay i give up, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 17:11:25
> pessimism is often realism.
Pessimism is also often just pessimism.
Can it be that realism is what we perceive? (I'm no good at this stuff, I'm just throwing this idea out there.)I'm sorry that you're feeling frustrated. I do too, quite often.
ClearSkies
Posted by madeline on December 10, 2006, at 7:28:30
In reply to okay i give up, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 17:11:17
I think we are all a little frustrated here about it llurpsie.
sigh
Maddie
Posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2006, at 23:08:17
In reply to Re: okay i give up » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by madeline on December 10, 2006, at 7:28:30
So many have left. It's sad.Love Phillipa
Posted by ClearSkies on December 10, 2006, at 23:52:24
In reply to Re: okay i give up, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2006, at 23:08:17
> So many have left. It's sad.Love Phillipa
It IS sad, and it happens all the time. Like people who move to a town and then don't like how the neighbourhood changes, so they leave.
Actually, that might be a good analogy. At least my late nights are good for something.
CS
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 13, 2006, at 3:05:38
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 9, 2006, at 11:39:36
> > > I think it's crucial that all babblers have the opportunity to respond to this (even currently blocked babblers).
> >
> > What about babblers who've chosen to leave the site?
>
> What if they've chosen to leave because of a perception that blocks and other punitive measures were the work of a monarch/oligarchy and they felt powerless to effect any changes?That's true, it would still be information.
> Perhaps you are sqeamish about this because you don't want all psychobabblers to participate in policy changes. Perhaps you are only comfortable eliciting ideas from a select few. Perhaps you are afraid that giving people a vote will somehow empower the masses and cause instability.
This board is here to enable all babblers to participate. If the goal is only to collect information, however, it wouldn't really be a "vote"...
> I guess it would help me understand the administration better if I could understand the motivations for controlling information that could help us understand where the typical psychobabbler "stands" on the issue of maximum block length.
I'm not trying to control information, you're free to gather it, and even to do so here, if you like. If you'd like to propose this as a group project, however, maybe I should move this up to the "more research here" thread?
> > > Would it be possible for you send out a survey to all users?
> >
> > Yes, but what about users who don't want to receive it?
>
> Don't open the babble-mail. Simple.Some people prefer not to receive unsolicited email even though they don't have to open it...
> I heard a great quote on TV last night.
>
> "Without an agitator, we're just left with a washtub full of dirty drawers."Well, an agitator may be necessary, but it isn't sufficient. :-)
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 13, 2006, at 7:13:21
In reply to Re: survey, posted by Dr. Bob on December 13, 2006, at 3:05:38
> > > > I think it's crucial that all babblers have the opportunity to respond to this (even currently blocked babblers).
> > >
> > > What about babblers who've chosen to leave the site?
> >
> > What if they've chosen to leave because of a perception that blocks and other punitive measures were the work of a monarch/oligarchy and they felt powerless to effect any changes?
>
> That's true, it would still be information.
>
> > Perhaps you are sqeamish about this because you don't want all psychobabblers to participate in policy changes. Perhaps you are only comfortable eliciting ideas from a select few. Perhaps you are afraid that giving people a vote will somehow empower the masses and cause instability.
>
> This board is here to enable all babblers to participate. If the goal is only to collect information, however, it wouldn't really be a "vote"...Yes, I never really conceived of this project as a 'vote'. That was a poor choice of words. I was thinking of it as a survey. A way of collecting data that would inform policy decisions (i.e. Dr. Bob's decisions)
>
> > I guess it would help me understand the administration better if I could understand the motivations for controlling information that could help us understand where the typical psychobabbler "stands" on the issue of maximum block length.
>
> I'm not trying to control information, you're free to gather it, and even to do so here, if you like. If you'd like to propose this as a group project, however, maybe I should move this up to the "more research here" thread?I have made several attempts to collect such information. In my two best attempts, I only received a dozen or fewer replies. This is why I think a more direct eliciting of a diversity of opinions is warranted.
> > > > Would it be possible for you send out a survey to all users?
> > >
> > > Yes, but what about users who don't want to receive it?
> >
> > Don't open the babble-mail. Simple.
>
> Some people prefer not to receive unsolicited email even though they don't have to open it...
That's right. In the last 6 months, the spammers have gotten incredibly creative, sending their unsolicited e-mails with graphics, in foreign alphabets and so forth. The spam filters of the world are not prepared for this deluge.I feel that a babble-mail or e-mail or whatever with the subject header: "dr-bob.org user survey: participation optional." would be enough information for people who would like to move it directly to "trash"
If there is other information you are interested in collecting, of course that could be incorporated also.
> > I heard a great quote on TV last night.
> >
> > "Without an agitator, we're just left with a washtub full of dirty drawers."
>
> Well, an agitator may be necessary, but it isn't sufficient. :-)
>
> BobYep, detergent (Dr. Bob) and water (tears of frustration on the Admin board) is pretty important too.
-Ll
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 8:28:22
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 13, 2006, at 7:13:21
> > I'm not trying to control information, you're free to gather it, and even to do so here, if you like. If you'd like to propose this as a group project, however, maybe I should move this up to the "more research here" thread?
>
> I have made several attempts to collect such information. In my two best attempts, I only received a dozen or fewer replies. This is why I think a more direct eliciting of a diversity of opinions is warranted.So I'll move this up to the other thread?
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 14, 2006, at 9:05:12
In reply to Re: survey, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 8:28:22
> So I'll move this up to the other thread?
>
> Bobwhatever.
Posted by fayeroe on December 14, 2006, at 9:34:48
In reply to Re: survey » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 14, 2006, at 9:05:12
ding goes the bell..............
Posted by ClearSkies on December 14, 2006, at 9:47:08
In reply to Re: survey, posted by fayeroe on December 14, 2006, at 9:34:48
> ding goes the bell..............
Fayeroe, do you have any suggestions as to how to make babble a better and safer place for all of us? Without having us all flock to another site?
Constructive criticism is something we can properly discuss and hopefully make some progress on.
I am sincere in this request and not intending to come across as the least bit sarcastic.
Thanks,
ClearSkies
Posted by fayeroe on December 14, 2006, at 10:52:25
In reply to Re: survey » fayeroe, posted by ClearSkies on December 14, 2006, at 9:47:08
yes, i have a suggestion. i suggest that Bob allows people like LL to contribute and that he would be appreciative that someone cares enough to offer to help improve Babble. it wouldn't hurt anything to allow someone with her expertise to help run a survey.
i don't take your answer as being sarcastic. not a'tall. however, the babblemail, from a deputy, that i just received wasn't as nice as your message.
i appreciate people here who welcome input and different ideas. after all, every snowflake is different...........xoxo pat
Posted by muffled on December 14, 2006, at 14:43:44
In reply to Re: survey, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 8:28:22
> > > I'm not trying to control information, you're free to gather it, and even to do so here, if you like. If you'd like to propose this as a group project, however, maybe I should move this up to the "more research here" thread?
> >
> > I have made several attempts to collect such information. In my two best attempts, I only received a dozen or fewer replies. This is why I think a more direct eliciting of a diversity of opinions is warranted.
>
> So I'll move this up to the other thread?**Well. This is the thing I have observed with the owner and administrator of this site.
He speaks when he wants too, and ignores that which he don't want to deal with.(see unaswered stuff above)
He seems like a nice enough fellow.
I think he got plenty of flaws just like I do.
He seems to want opinions sent his way.
So that he might mull them over.
But nothing too concrete.
As he is the ultimate authority of this site. THE END.
Sigh.
So he sends sort of a mixed message.
That WE are a community. That WE need to care and support each other. That he likes to hear input from us. He will even meet w/us irl.
But he shows little of himself or motivations? WHY does he want to meet us IRL? WHY does he want our ideas if he's not gonna act on them?
He treats us like we matter.
He blows us off like dust.
I think Bob doesn't have a clue how he comes across. Or mebbe he thinks he does, but he got it wrong.
This is in no way meant to diss Bob. But I just trying to understand wether to make effort for change etc, or whether I am completely wasting mt time.
I also don't know how much of myself to invest in a site where the owner is such a mystery in ways that concern me somewhat.
Thats all.
Muffled
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
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