![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Jost on October 19, 2006, at 11:44:52
In reply to ******DR.BOB************, posted by muffled on October 19, 2006, at 11:33:32
I've got to agree with Muffled.
I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind, but there's something about the block with Alex that seems counterproductive for the rest of us.
I worry that we're more likely to lose out, by having Alex find other places that have much more flexible policies on freezing people out.
Esp. for long periods of time.
I dont' know. Maybe when people were flaming, in the early days of the internet-- or if they do now, and the intent is clearly to hurt someone.
Losing Alex,and other people who make Pbabble a lively exciting place, with lots of information and thoughtful posters-- that seems (to me) to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Somehow maybe there could be collaboration on blocks between Bob, or deputies and the blockee-to-be. Or ways of shortening the block, by doing things that were mitigating. Or mitigating factors, as well as aggravating factors.
Most sentencings take into account things that would reduce the sentence, as well as extend it. Take Lynne Stewart, for exampe-- the judge clearly considered her many years of championing unpopular causes. And often there's early release for good behavior.
I don't know. I'm worried about Pbabble (and us) if we lose people like Alex.
Jost
Posted by mike lynch on October 19, 2006, at 13:33:27
In reply to Re: ******DR.BOB************, posted by Jost on October 19, 2006, at 11:44:52
Could I get a link to the block? I'm curious to see what he was blocked for
Posted by 10derHeart on October 19, 2006, at 16:26:52
In reply to Re: ******DR.BOB************, posted by mike lynch on October 19, 2006, at 13:33:27
She was blocked on the Politics board:
Posted by damos on October 21, 2006, at 19:28:29
In reply to ******DR.BOB************, posted by muffled on October 19, 2006, at 11:33:32
Hi Muffled, Jost,
Just wanted to say thanks for your posts in support of our friend Alex.
Jost, sadly this is just the latest in a series of way too severe, way too hurtful blocks.
She is much missed and we and all forms of babble are the poorer for her absence.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
We are your friends and we'll stand up for you, stand with you and stand beside you because you are worth it, and because of the wonderful friend and person you are.
Please take really good care of you okay.
Damos
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:19:11
In reply to Re: ******DR.BOB************, posted by Jost on October 19, 2006, at 11:44:52
> I think its important that once you have blocked yourself, that you can't do an end run and unblock yourself.
>
> MuffledMy concern is that if someone couldn't unblock themselves, they wouldn't have access to this potential source of support.
--
> I worry that we're more likely to lose out, by having Alex find other places that have much more flexible policies on freezing people out.
I agree, that's an issue.
> Somehow maybe there could be collaboration on blocks between Bob, or deputies and the blockee-to-be. Or ways of shortening the block, by doing things that were mitigating. Or mitigating factors, as well as aggravating factors.
>
> Most sentencings take into account things that would reduce the sentence, as well as extend it. ... And often there's early release for good behavior.
>
> JostI'm open to collaborating on a way to shorten this. To be fair, however, I think it would need to be something that could be applied to others, too.
Bob
Posted by Jost on October 22, 2006, at 20:03:11
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration, posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:19:11
Oh, that's interesting. I'll think about it. I'd really like to see if there's a way to do it.
I hope Alex is still out there!
Jost :)
Posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 0:12:36
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration, posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:19:11
My concern is that if someone couldn't unblock themselves, they wouldn't have access to this potential source of support.
****HUH? At least they have a CHOICE to block.
Often when a person is UNvoluntarily blocked, its because they having a spaz of some sort. They are needing support cuz they are feeling unstable, they are not thinking at their best............they could sure use some support....
Posted by zazenducky on October 23, 2006, at 20:32:09
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration, posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 15:19:11
> --
>
> > I worry that we're more likely to lose out, by having Alex find other places that have much more flexible policies on freezing people out.
>
> I agree, that's an issue.
>
> > Somehow maybe there could be collaboration on blocks between Bob, or deputies and the blockee-to-be. Or ways of shortening the block, by doing things that were mitigating. Or mitigating factors, as well as aggravating factors.
> >
> > Most sentencings take into account things that would reduce the sentence, as well as extend it. ... And often there's early release for good behavior.
> >
> > Jost
>
> I'm open to collaborating on a way to shorten this. To be fair, however, I think it would need to be something that could be applied to others, too.
>
Yes as ((((((Szaszy)))))) pointed out there is always the danger that sporadic acts of mercy will perpetuate bad laws. The problem is systemic. You need to change the system of blocks not just make exceptions.Maybe just block people from one board at a time. Rayw could be blocked from religion and Alexandra could be blocked from politics etc.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2006, at 12:21:43
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducky on October 23, 2006, at 20:32:09
>
> Maybe just block people from one board at a time. Rayw could be blocked from religion and Alexandra could be blocked from politics etc.Now *that* is a really good idea.. only get blocked from the board that the post that caused the block was on..
Those who are deliberately trying to be uncivil are lkely t do it on all boards, so coudl end up blocked from all boards.. but those that got blocked for a simple bad choice of words would still have the usual support..
Dr Bob?
Nikki
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2006, at 21:24:40
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration » zazenducky, posted by NikkiT2 on October 25, 2006, at 12:21:43
> > Maybe just block people from one board at a time.
>
> Now *that* is a really good idea.. only get blocked from the board that the post that caused the block was on..
>
> Dr Bob?I agree, it's an interesting idea. But the server isn't able, at least not yet, to limit blocks in that way...
Bob
Posted by muffled on October 29, 2006, at 2:43:17
In reply to Re: there could be collaboration » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on October 23, 2006, at 0:12:36
> My concern is that if someone couldn't unblock themselves, they wouldn't have access to this potential source of support.
>
> ****HUH? At least they have a CHOICE to block.
> Often when a person is UNvoluntarily blocked, its because they having a spaz of some sort. They are needing support cuz they are feeling unstable, they are not thinking at their best............they could sure use some support....Like Alex :-(
9 weeks :-(
How much longer?
:-(
Muffled
P.S. and don't dodge the first question
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 29, 2006, at 17:28:15
In reply to I say again....Bob, posted by muffled on October 29, 2006, at 2:43:17
> 9 weeks :-(
I agree, that's a long time. It'll be nice to have her back.
> P.S. and don't dodge the first question
Sorry, which question is that? I think it's more supportive if posters can change their mind if they block themselves.
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 3, 2006, at 16:04:24
In reply to Re: the first question, posted by Dr. Bob on October 29, 2006, at 17:28:15
> I agree, that's a long time. It'll be nice to have her back.** A LONG time. Do YOU feel its too long or just right? Or for you, I suppose its just a matter of rules. I not so good w/rules.
> Sorry, which question is that? I think it's more supportive if posters can change their mind if they block themselves.
>> My concern is that if someone couldn't unblock themselves, they wouldn't have access to this potential source of support.***So, that being said....I guess the question would be,
Do YOU truly think its supportive, having said the above, to block people for long periods? Proly at a time when they could use some support, cuz thats why they here in the first place....
Its all so complicated and I wish I was smarter, but I guess I just being stupid and idealistic in just thinking there's gotta be a way for there to be less hurt.
Damn.
Thanks for your input too.
Muffled**
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2006, at 23:47:29
In reply to Re: the first question » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 3, 2006, at 16:04:24
> Do YOU truly think its supportive, having said the above, to block people for long periods? Proly at a time when they could use some support, cuz thats why they here in the first place....
It's not intended to support the people who are blocked, it's to try to keep the general atmosphere supportive.
> Its all so complicated and I wish I was smarter, but I guess I just being stupid and idealistic in just thinking there's gotta be a way for there to be less hurt.
I wish there were a way for no one to be hurt, too. Thanks for trying to understand this.
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 12:35:56
In reply to Re: a way for there to be less hurt, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2006, at 23:47:29
>It's not intended to support the people who are blocked, it's to try to keep the general atmosphere supportive.
**So, this isn't a question, but an observation....
But with the above statement in mind...
Then thats the thing of it...
About blocking...
Cuz your a part of a community, that gives and takes as needed....
And after awhile you finally feel somewhat accepted, an all too rare feeling for many of us....
And you get comfortable, and feel safe enough to be more real....
And sometimes stuff is hard, and its hard to keep in control....
So you reach out and immerse yourself in this community you have embraced, and which has wonderingly, embraced you...
And sometimes, mebbe you get carried away some, cuz everything is getting mixed up in your head...
But in this community they understand mostly...
And accept you in your weirdness, in your imperfection...
But then you screw up, mebbe not majorly even....
And rather than having the community available to nurture and help you thru this challenging time....
YOU ARE UTTERLY BANISHED.
ITS LIKE YOU SCREW UP AND THATS IT.
F*CK YOU SH*THEAD.
YOU BLOCKED.
GO AWAY.
WE DON'T GIVE A RATS *SS BOUT YOU.
YOU THOT WE CARED.
YOU THOT IT WAS SAFE HERE.
BUT ITS NOT.
IMPERFECTION IS ONLY TOLERATED IF THERE IS NO POSSIBLE CHANCE, HOWEVER SLIGHT, THAT YOU MIGHT CAUSE SOME SMALL MEASURE OF PAIN TO ANOTHER.
SO THERE MUST BE BIG SHOCKING PAIN, IN ORDER TO KEEP THE OVERALL PEACE.
Sigh.
I really don't get the need for a sledgehammer, when mebbe a belt might do...:-(, or even a flyswatter, and a chance to apologize, for each and EVERY transgression... not a pbc on one board, and allasudden you get sledgehammered on another :-(, shockingly, hurtfully, terribly rejectfully...Bob, can you please reflect back to me what I said, so that I might know that you DO understand what I am getting at? I know there must be hurt, thats life. But I am of a mind that hurt could be further reduced here on babble, for the good of all, and not with the motivation of fear, and not at the expense of a few 'examples', to strike fear in others....
Sorry if I am terribly annoying.
Yes, I am trying to understand.
I am trying to understand where YOU are comming from as you are the one in control, so its of some importance..
I am trying to see if we can further make things better for ALL, everybody.
Thank you,
Muffled
Posted by ClearSkies on November 6, 2006, at 13:52:01
In reply to Re: a way for there to be less hurt » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 12:35:56
Muffled, when I see that a poster is blocked, I keep in mind that the blocks don't come out of the blue - that folks are asked to be civil. If someone is uncivil again, then there's the block. It isn't as if we aren't given the chance to think about what we post. The requests to be civil are the reminder to a poster that as upset/angry/hurt/confused they might be, they still have to abide by Dr Bob's rules of the site.
BTW, I think it would supportive for the community as a whole to have the previous requests to be civil linked in the blocking post. It seems to me that part of the anger I see here when blocks happen is not knowing where the preliminary warnings were (not always on the same thread or the same board).
Yes, blocks do hurt the posters who are blocked. And people who are blocked are asked to be civil first. To me, if someone is uncivil again, then they are doing so with the knowledge that they might (ok, probably) be blocked. How can we say that someone else is hurting us when we do the hurting to ourselves?
Perhaps it is that the significance of requests to be civil isn't understood clearly enough. Maybe PBC's could be given with the caveat clearly stated that further incivilities might (will) result in a block. Would such a fair warning help, do you think?
ClearSkies
Posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:44:41
In reply to Re: a way for there to be less hurt » muffled, posted by ClearSkies on November 6, 2006, at 13:52:01
> Muffled, when I see that a poster is blocked, I keep in mind that the blocks don't come out of the blue - that folks are asked to be civil. If someone is uncivil again, then there's the block. It isn't as if we aren't given the chance to think about what we post. The requests to be civil are the reminder to a poster that as upset/angry/hurt/confused they might be, they still have to abide by Dr Bob's rules of the site.
Someone asked me this: "Is it true that technically, once a person has received one PBC *ever,* they may be blocked immediately with no warning from then on. And that this does in fact happen. (And not just in what most would agree are cases of blatant incivility.)"
And yes I am VERY aware that this is Bobs site. VERY aware.
>
> BTW, I think it would supportive for the community as a whole to have the previous requests to be civil linked in the blocking post. It seems to me that part of the anger I see here when blocks happen is not knowing where the preliminary warnings were (not always on the same thread or the same board).***EXACTLY CS. But not so much linked, as an actual warning IN THAT THREAD. I generally warn my kids before I lash out with my harshest of punishments. I don't ground them instantly after warning them some other time over some other transgression that they proly long forgotten...
>
> Yes, blocks do hurt the posters who are blocked. And people who are blocked are asked to be civil first.**But the KEY, is that statement from someone I pasted above....that they are not warned AT THE TIME... its extreemly possible, perhaps in many cases probable, that the poster DOES NOT REALIZE that he/she is crossing the civility lines. Which Bob himself admits are not always that clear...
To me, if someone is uncivil again, then they are doing so with the knowledge that they might (ok, probably) be blocked. How can we say that someone else is hurting us when we do the hurting to ourselves?
**But thats the problem...sigh...we DON'T recognize when we getting close to or are crossing the line, sometimes there's warnings, sometimes NOT. Its the NOT, that I have a problem with.
I hurt myself ALOT CS. I cut myself, I punch trees, I do stupid things I KNOW are hurtful to me. Does that mean Bob should rub my nose in it? Banish me for being the complete sh*thead that I am? Being a sh*thead, I have compassion for others of my ilk, and prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, cuz i KNOW how much they already hurt themselves....
>
> Perhaps it is that the significance of requests to be civil isn't understood clearly enough. Maybe PBC's could be given with the caveat clearly stated that further incivilities might (will) result in a block. Would such a fair warning help, do you think?***Not if they not in the SAME thread. There is already caveates on those things I think.
Thanks CS for boldly stepping in. No offense to YOU. Its the SITUATION that bedevils me.
I'm kinda screwed up.
But I learning.
And I think I getting awful damn close to that f*cking magical mysterious f*cking line.
And I could be blocked.
Banished.
Right now.
No warning.
Cuz I just not sure..
I feel strongly...
But I goto shut the f*ck up.
Posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:52:27
In reply to Re: a way for there to be less hurt CS/BOB, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:44:41
that I ooze badness. That merely by my presence I can infect others...
Can you imagine the shame of being blocked?
The confirmation of what I beleive about myself?
Fortunately I been working on that in T....
But I wasn't always...
I got actual physical scars from punishing myself for being stupid for being blocked. In revulsion and disgust that I dared to think others might care about the disgusting me.
Rejection cuz I was bad...
I dunno whether Bob considers these things...
Or even can come close to understanding them even.....
I sadly have my doubts....
Or mebbe I should be happy for him that he don't...
All the education in the world can't make a person understand that stuff...
Posted by ClearSkies on November 6, 2006, at 15:12:49
In reply to I struggle with feeling like I a leper...**Trigg?, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:52:27
I wish you didn't feel so badly about yourself. The only "illness" that I've picked up from you is the infection of compassion and caring. When you are feeling bad, it just makes me want to help you feel better. I can't see that you are bad, ever.
Muffled, I hurt myself too when I was blocked, by binge drinking. It is less visible than most forms of self harm but just as effective. It sure does hurt.
Blocks with their associated hurt and awareness are a big issue for me. I think it's really important to discuss it here and try to improve how they are handled.
CS
Posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 15:23:07
In reply to Re: I struggle with feeling like I a leper...**Trigg? » muffled, posted by ClearSkies on November 6, 2006, at 15:12:49
Posted by zazenducky on November 6, 2006, at 17:58:54
In reply to I struggle with feeling like I a leper...**Trigg?, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:52:27
It's not you that's bad.
You're very eloquent.
I hope you get through to Bob.
I'm sorry you were hurt here.
Thanks for speaking up.
Posted by MidnightBlue on November 6, 2006, at 22:26:24
In reply to Re: a way for there to be less hurt CS/BOB, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:44:41
Muffled,
I totally get what you are saying. This really bugs me, too. If a person were posting wildly all over several boards or in multiple posts, then I can see just warning someone on one board and banning them the next time they are uncivil.
But if a person has been uncivil on one board and gotten a PBC, and then some time later (days? weeks?) been uncivil on a second board, there is no way (in my opinion) that that person should be banned without a chance to rephrase or a PBC.
We are talking apples and oranges here. If you had an apple PBC and an orange PBC the time restriction should not be as long as if you have two apple or two orange PBCs.
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 7, 2006, at 0:10:29
In reply to I struggle with feeling like I a leper...**Trigg?, posted by muffled on November 6, 2006, at 14:52:27
> Bob, can you please reflect back to me what I said, so that I might know that you DO understand what I am getting at?
I think you're saying it can hurt to be blocked. And it can hurt more if you've come to trust, or even to depend, on this community. And it also hurts more if you're not expecting it.
> I am trying to understand where YOU are comming from as you are the one in control, so its of some importance..
>
> muffledThanks for trying to understand. Where I'm coming from is, I'd like the general atmosphere to be supportive. That helps make it feel safe in the first place. But IMO, keeping the general atmosphere supportive requires blocks. Which, paradoxically, can make it feel less safe. But hurt from blocks is at least more predictable? As ClearSkies said, they don't come out of the blue.
--
> I think it would supportive for the community as a whole to have the previous requests to be civil linked in the blocking post.
>
> ClearSkiesI see what you mean, but I'd be concerned about embarrassing them. If they want, they can ask...
--
> Is it true that technically, once a person has received one PBC *ever,* they may be blocked immediately with no warning from then on. And that this does in fact happen.
It's true, that sometimes happens. People should take that first warning seriously.
> its extreemly possible, perhaps in many cases probable, that the poster DOES NOT REALIZE that he/she is crossing the civility lines.
>
> thats the problem...sigh...we DON'T recognize when we getting close to or are crossing the line
>
> muffledI agree, that's possible. But it's an issue if someone doesn't see what they're doing. Sometimes posters help each other keep track of where the line is (or at least might be). I think that's a good approach.
> I struggle with feeling like I a leper...
> that I ooze badness. That merely by my presence I can infect others...
> Can you imagine the shame of being blocked?
> The confirmation of what I beleive about myself?
> Fortunately I been working on that in T....Being blocked doesn't confirm you're a bad person. Though you may react by feeling that way. I'm glad you're working on that. :-)
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 26, 2006, at 23:22:49
In reply to Re: feeling hurt and feeling bad, posted by Dr. Bob on November 7, 2006, at 0:10:29
> Thanks for trying to understand. Where I'm coming from is, I'd like the general atmosphere to be supportive. That helps make it feel safe in the first place. But IMO, keeping the general atmosphere supportive requires blocks. Which, paradoxically, can make it feel less safe. But hurt from blocks is at least more predictable? As ClearSkies said, they don't come out of the blue.
**I don't disagree w/blocks IN THEIR PLACE.But I talk of this elsewhere.
> > I think it would supportive for the community as a whole to have the previous requests to be civil linked in the blocking post.
> >
> > ClearSkies
>
> I see what you mean, but I'd be concerned about embarrassing them. If they want, they can ask...**Bob, really, I would WAY rather have momentary embarrassment, than to get blocked unexpectedly. The UNEXPECTEDNESS is AWFUL. But that aside, I beleive ALL possible blocks should each have their own individual warning. I don't understand the need to be so harsh. I have a TERRIBLE memory, so I don't remember stuff. But I talk of this elsewhere too...
>
> > Is it true that technically, once a person has received one PBC *ever,* they may be blocked immediately with no warning from then on. And that this does in fact happen.
>
> It's true, that sometimes happens. People should take that first warning seriously.***Oh SH*T on THAT Bob. A warning elsewhere, bout something else, has got sweet piss all to do with it IMO.
>
> > its extreemly possible, perhaps in many cases probable, that the poster DOES NOT REALIZE that he/she is crossing the civility lines.
> I agree, that's possible. But it's an issue if someone doesn't see what they're doing. Sometimes posters help each other keep track of where the line is (or at least might be). I think that's a good approach.**Ahhhh, so utopian.......So full of sh*t....
Sometimes............
Not good enough if you get blocked. And sometimes they help in a very oblique way, and I just don't get it.> Being blocked doesn't confirm you're a bad person. Though you may react by feeling that way.
**What DOES being blocked mean?????????????
GOOD QUESTION for you Bob.???????????????????
To me it means I F*CKED UP. I not fit company to be here. That I too bad to be here. Cuz i can't get my sh*t together good enough. So I bad and get the boot.
Been there, done that.
IT F*CKING SUCKS AND IT HURTS.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 4:24:50
In reply to SO, What DOES being blocked mean??????? » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 26, 2006, at 23:22:49
> > Sometimes posters help each other keep track of where the line is (or at least might be). I think that's a good approach.
>
> Ahhhh, so utopian.......So full of sh*t....
> Sometimes............
> Not good enough if you get blocked. And sometimes they help in a very oblique way, and I just don't get it.I just now posted this idea again:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/707728.html
Maybe it's kind of utopian. But a perfect blocking system is kind of utopian, too... Sometimes it's not good enough means sometimes it is? Might there be a better way? Sometimes the help is too oblique?
> > Being blocked doesn't confirm you're a bad person. Though you may react by feeling that way.
>
> What DOES being blocked mean?????????????
> GOOD QUESTION for you Bob.???????????????????
> To me it means I F*CKED UP. I not fit company to be here. That I too bad to be here. Cuz i can't get my sh*t together good enough. So I bad and get the boot.
> Been there, done that.
> IT F*CKING SUCKS AND IT HURTS.Being blocked means I think someone broke a rule. It can f*cking suck, and hurt, but doing something "wrong" doesn't make them a bad person.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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