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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 373 to 397 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on June 11, 2006, at 21:26:20
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags, posted by MidnightBlue on June 11, 2006, at 20:52:40
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2006, at 4:23:59
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags, posted by MidnightBlue on June 11, 2006, at 20:52:40
> The computer program would look for trigger words like "cutting," "suicide" etc. and then would ask the person who is posting the message IF they think the message they have just written contains a trigger.
>
> This may not be a perfect, but I suspect there would be far fewer visible flags then you thinkI was worried more about how often the program would ask than how often there would be a visible flag. If the program only asks at certain times, people might (1) always answer no if it asks a lot when it shouldn't, (2) always answer yes because they think that's being suggested, or (3) assume their post doesn't need to be flagged if they're not asked.
Why not just always have a box that lets a poster flag their post?
Bob
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 12, 2006, at 10:44:25
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words, posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2006, at 4:23:59
Dr. Bob,You bring up some good points. I'm not sure how to prevent someone from always answering "yes" or "no." But that could happen even if you just have a box they can check. In some ways that happens now. Some people write "TRIGGER" on a post even if it isn't really trigger material because they are worried about offending someone. Others never write "trigger" no matter how graphic the post!
It is the second group I am most concerned about. People who don't stop to think OR don't realize the gravity of their words. The computer program would actually be a teaching tool that would encourage self-restraint and insight. There have been occasions where people have commented that they didn't realize just how bad the situation was until another poster responded to their post.
I do think it is a good idea to allow a poster to check a trigger box even if the computer program doesn't "recommend" it. Some posts will always slip through the cracks. That way a conscientious poster can flag something they feel should have been caught by the program. And the others, well, that is why we have you and deputies, right? :-)
I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
MidnightBlue
> I was worried more about how often the program would ask than how often there would be a visible flag. If the program only asks at certain times, people might (1) always answer no if it asks a lot when it shouldn't, (2) always answer yes because they think that's being suggested, or (3) assume their post doesn't need to be flagged if they're not asked.
>
> Why not just always have a box that lets a poster flag their post?
>
> Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2006, at 11:08:49
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 12, 2006, at 10:44:25
> I do think it is a good idea to allow a poster to check a trigger box even if the computer program doesn't "recommend" it. Some posts will always slip through the cracks. That way a conscientious poster can flag something they feel should have been caught by the program. And the others, well, that is why we have you and deputies, right? :-)
>
> I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
>
> MidnightBlueA beautiful job, arguing that. Way to go. Way to go!
The option must be on every page in the posting window, to flag as a trigger. But the default is *not* flagged.
Failure to flag will be a teaching offense.
Lar
Posted by llrrrpp on June 12, 2006, at 20:31:55
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words » MidnightBlue, posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2006, at 11:08:49
I err on the side of caution, for 2 reasons.
1) I'm very sensitive right now
2) I don't want to upset nice people.
I think better to err on the side of caution.
First, sensitive folks like me are pretty wary already. at least we will know not to read certain threads until we are in a good, strong state of mind.
Second, folks who are unaware of the triggering thing will learn more about what are potentially disrupting and devastating topics. Just because they are not personally sensitive doesn't mean that they won't be thoughtful when considering other's feelings. Supportive people who care about supporting others need to learn about this stuff, to help them be supportive.
sorry for inarticulation (blah blah)
I'm in favor of Mid-Blues suggestions for implementation.
-L
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2006, at 21:54:21
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 12, 2006, at 10:44:25
> The computer program would actually be a teaching tool
I agree, a computer program could be, but if it suggests flagging based on words, then wouldn't it teach flagging based on words?
> I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
If we did, which ones should we start with?
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2006, at 16:51:12
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words, posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2006, at 21:54:21
> > The computer program would actually be a teaching tool
>
> I agree, a computer program could be, but if it suggests flagging based on words, then wouldn't it teach flagging based on words?
>
> > I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
>
> If we did, which ones should we start with?
>
> BobI think using words as a filter is not very efficient or effective, compared to the effort required to make it work.
I prefer simple, manual flagging. We could never anticipate all examples of evocative writing, and we could not ever avoid false positives. False positives would just confuse and weaken the whole enterprise.
Lar
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 13, 2006, at 17:23:33
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Gabbi~G, posted by AuntieMel on June 7, 2006, at 8:52:39
Well... maybe I'm still quite unsure okay with it in theory, but after seeing what happened with Cora's thread, I'm concerned that even with a subject heading obviously indicating unpleasant subject matter people might still be upset that it didn't spell out the word *trigger*
I re read her post and did not find it at all graphic (as it was described)And I'm concerned that sometimes there will be more indignation over whether or not it said trigger, than upset caused by the actual subject matter. This draws attention to those claiming that they are triggered by the post and away from the poster.
That could be really painful considering these are likely posts that written during a particularly difficult time for the author.And I think it's up to Bob whether or not it becomes a blockable offence.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 14, 2006, at 8:09:08
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbi~G on June 13, 2006, at 17:23:33
I don't know where cora's thread is. I looked but couldn't find one.
And Larry, above, agreed with Midnight Blue about it not being blockable, so I think we still have consensus.
Posted by 10derHeart on June 14, 2006, at 10:18:08
In reply to Re: Implementation of trigger flags » Gabbi~G, posted by AuntieMel on June 14, 2006, at 8:09:08
Mel,
Cora's thread is on Social.. The board archived, so it's here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060604/msgs/652665.html
The post is hard for me to read. I'll try to say something more articulate about that later. gotta run...
Posted by Kath on June 14, 2006, at 17:15:17
In reply to Petition to add trigger flag. please sign below, posted by llrrrpp on June 4, 2006, at 15:24:34
Didn't see my post after 'refreshing'. Wanted to make sure my 'vote' was in.
Kath
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 14, 2006, at 21:59:14
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words, posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2006, at 21:54:21
> I agree, a computer program could be, but if it suggests flagging based on words, then wouldn't it teach flagging based on words
In my opinion, the program would be teaching self-restraint. The word list is only there to cause the poster to pause and think about whether or not what they have written is a trigger.
> > I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
>
> If we did, which ones should we start with?
>
> BobI think we already came up with a pretty good word list when we listed trigger words/subjects several weeks ago.
MidnightBlue
Posted by zazenduck on June 20, 2006, at 16:34:37
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on June 14, 2006, at 21:59:14
because some people just don't get it
it's not okay to hurt children or to post LIGHTHEARTEDLY or any other way about it
it needs to be mandatory because some people don't seem able to voluntarily comply
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 16:40:23
In reply to MANDATORY triggers for child abuse triggers, posted by zazenduck on June 20, 2006, at 16:34:37
> because some people just don't get it
>
> it's not okay to hurt children or to post LIGHTHEARTEDLY or any other way about it
>
> it needs to be mandatory because some people don't seem able to voluntarily complyI'm going to gently disagree.
It's not about willingness to comply. It's about grasping the significance of it.
Shaping people towards understanding should be the guiding principle. Not punishing those who can't yet see. Would you punish a dyslexic child for failing to read? A deaf child, for not hearing?
A missed trigger flag is a teaching opportunity. What would you like Dr. Bob to understand, that he apparently failed to grasp? What feeling would you like him to imagine?
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 20, 2006, at 21:37:26
In reply to MANDATORY triggers for child abuse triggers, posted by zazenduck on June 20, 2006, at 16:34:37
> > I agree, a computer program could be, but if it suggests flagging based on words, then wouldn't it teach flagging based on words
>
> In my opinion, the program would be teaching self-restraint.But self-restraint in what circumstances?
> > > I would suggest starting with a short list of trigger words and adding or modifying them as needed.
>
> I think we already came up with a pretty good word list when we listed trigger words/subjects several weeks ago.
>
> MidnightBlueThis list?
> violence
> suicide
> self-harm
> abusehttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060525/msgs/653706.html
--
> it needs to be mandatory because some people don't seem able to voluntarily comply
>
> zazenduckI think "mandatory" trigger warnings may sound like a good idea because it would be great if you could rely on triggering posts to be flagged. Like it would be if you could rely on all posts to be civil.
Bob
Posted by zazenduck on June 21, 2006, at 10:30:56
In reply to Re: looking for trigger words, posted by Dr. Bob on June 20, 2006, at 21:37:26
I withdraw my suggestion. My concern IS civility not triggers. I would like to have rules against posting humor involving violence against children such as throwing objects at childrens heads such as books or chairs or expressing approval for such actions. If there are such rules all ready (I thought there were) I would like them to be enforced equitably. Thanks
> >
> I think "mandatory" trigger warnings may sound like a good idea because it would be great if you could rely on triggering posts to be flagged. Like it would be if you could rely on all posts to be civil.
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2006, at 12:45:09
In reply to Re: child abuse trigger, posted by zazenduck on June 21, 2006, at 10:30:56
> I would like to have rules against posting humor involving violence against children such as throwing objects at childrens heads such as books or chairs or expressing approval for such actions. If there are such rules all ready (I thought there were) I would like them to be enforced equitably.
It's already considered uncivil to treat injury or death lightly. Did I miss something? Sorry, I'm still behind...
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on June 21, 2006, at 15:52:21
In reply to Re: humor involving violence, posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2006, at 12:45:09
He's talking about my response to you under "Do I have to stop this car"
I didn't really think of it as violence, or triggering at the time I wrote it. I'm a victim (survivor) of much much worse, which is possibly why I didn't think this was bad..
Didn't Cheech & Chong have a routine????
But - I'd rather have a ruling on it than just let it hang, if it's all the same to you.
Posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 17:01:17
In reply to Re: humor involving violence » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on June 21, 2006, at 15:52:21
Hi Auntie Mel,
> He's talking about my response to you under "Do I have to stop this car"
>
> I didn't really think of it as violence, or triggering at the time I wrote it. I'm a victim (survivor) of much much worse, which is possibly why I didn't think this was bad..I’m sorry you’ve been victimised in the past. That shouldn’t happen to anyone.
I’m a victim/survivor too. And perhaps you’ve dealt with those issues more extensively or more effectively than I have. It’s still quite a difficult issue for me. And I tend to find it’s not the details of the story that distress me so much as the themes.
When I read the story, there seemed to be a definite theme of violence, humiliation and abuse of power in an institutional context where the victims dare not complain. It’s those themes that I find triggering rather than the exact details of the story.
I know that schoolchildren of previous decades had different expectations of the institutional environment, and that violence from teachers was often considered normal and permissible. But I am happy that school kids in most schools no longer expect routine violence in the classroom.
I’m not writing this to criticise you, but to explain why I found it hard to read. I don’t expect people to have to avoid certain subjects to protect me… I’m not saying you shouldn’t mention the events of your childhood. Of course I wouldn’t want to say anything like that. But in case you didn’t understand why it might be problematic I just wanted to explain my feelings about it. I hope that’s OK.
Best wishes,
Tamar
Posted by AuntieMel on June 21, 2006, at 18:52:49
In reply to Re: humor involving violence » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 17:01:17
Of course it's ok, Tamar.
I had no idea that that type of joshing around would bother anyone. It's stuff I've heard joked around about (in those type terms) a lot and I assumed everyone else had, too. I wouldn't have done it if I had known.
Thank you for telling me.
And BTW - all kidding aside I really don't believe in corporal punishment. Ask my kids. <smile> It doesn't work. Ask my father <bigger smile>
Posted by AuntieMel on June 21, 2006, at 18:54:33
In reply to Re: humor involving violence » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 17:01:17
I'm glad you told me it bothered you. If I'm not told, I'm not likely to change anything.
And and extra big thank you for the kind, adult way you informed me.
Posted by zazenduck on June 23, 2006, at 10:39:50
In reply to Re: humor involving violence » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 17:01:17
Some times it takes a lot of different voices before people are willing listen. Thank you for being one of them! Thanks for being courageous enough to speak up.
Posted by zazenduck on June 23, 2006, at 11:09:18
In reply to Thanks Tamar :) » Tamar, posted by zazenduck on June 23, 2006, at 10:39:50
> Some times it takes a lot of different voices before people are willing listen. Thank you for being one of them! Thanks for being courageous enough to speak up.
>
people means whatever people it takes a lot of voices for not all people or any specific person just people to whom that statement applies in a civil and equitable manner with charity towards all and malice toward none..no offense intended to any nonRepublicans by quoting Lincoln or to other nationalities or to the indigenous peoples or refugees who have no homeland or other species or those who might believe differently i could of course be wrong in other words i feel whatever it is i feel
Posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2006, at 11:16:09
In reply to Re: humor involving violence » AuntieMel, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 17:01:17
I have to admit, Tamar, that on thinking more about it, I still don't really 'get' why that particular post bothered you. Though I can really relate to sensitivity on the topic.
But, you know, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that it *does* bother you.
I'll try really hard not to forget.
But sometimes I get a bad case of 'foot in mouth' so please, if I forget, give me another gentle smack, ok?
Peace??
Posted by Racer on June 23, 2006, at 13:47:01
In reply to civility scrupulosity addendum, posted by zazenduck on June 23, 2006, at 11:09:18
> > Some times it takes a lot of different voices before people are willing listen. Thank you for being one of them! Thanks for being courageous enough to speak up.
> >
> people means whatever people it takes a lot of voices for not all people or any specific person just people to whom that statement applies in a civil and equitable manner with charity towards all and malice toward none..no offense intended to any nonRepublicans by quoting Lincoln or to other nationalities or to the indigenous peoples or refugees who have no homeland or other species or those who might believe differently i could of course be wrong in other words i feel whatever it is i feel
>
>
>I'm afraid I don't understand. I have a lot of trouble understanding posts that don't contain much punctuation, just because my brain can't split things up into anything coherent when I read, without some help. That's one of the things about those lots of voices -- maybe sometimes, when it takes a lot of voices, it's because some of the auditors can't make out the words.
But I truly can't understand your point, and I want to. Any chance you could try again, for those of us who are apparently comprehension impaired?
Thanks.
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