![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 132 to 156 of 275. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tabitha on June 3, 2006, at 2:51:10
In reply to Re: I-statements » Tabitha, posted by Gabbi~G on June 2, 2006, at 12:51:40
>
> I don't think we all have the same choices, or can decide whether or not it's simple for someone to leave a support group or not, especially when mental illness is involved.I didn't mean to imply that it's simple. Far from it.
Posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2006, at 9:36:08
In reply to Re: guiding principles » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 2, 2006, at 9:53:55
> I really don't want to argue the point anymore, not least because I don't wish to hurt Estella.
Exactly why I can hardly bring myself to post on this. It must be a million times past any frustration I can imagine to read things, all about you, and not be able to answer/explain... I was the only poster who remarked on the thread that I felt a little put down. She was ready to elaborate (and did), and we could have chosen to discuss it on/off boards, but then came the attempted rephrase and block.....:-(
>
> But I will say that Estella has many people here who care about her, and would be more than willing to review posts she's concerned about.Me, me, me.
>Myself included. I may not always understand how Dr. Bob will read something, but I understood that one, and could have helped prevent a block.<<
Me, too. I regret very much that events unfolded in the order they did. Just to clarify, I'm not blaming myself for her block - that wouldn't make sense at all - the PR came before I ever said anything anyway.....but in this case, I knew how it sounded *to me* as a religious person....the *ouch* fator, if you will, upon first reading it, and I think I could have helped. Or at least I would have tried my best...
Posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2006, at 9:41:37
In reply to Re: I-statements » Larry Hoover, posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 12:16:44
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 9:52:37
In reply to Re: guiding principles » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2006, at 9:36:08
> Me, too. I regret very much that events unfolded in the order they did. Just to clarify, I'm not blaming myself for her block - that wouldn't make sense at all - the PR came before I ever said anything anyway.....but in this case, I knew how it sounded *to me* as a religious person....the *ouch* fator, if you will, upon first reading it, and I think I could have helped.
Here's the deal, as I see it. You were triggered.
There are civil comments, posted to these boards, that trigger me severely. PTSD is a hyper-sensitization disorder. That's my whole life. I live inside its boundaries.
Just as I do not seek any repercussions on someone who has triggered me, I do not feel that Estella is responsible for your perhaps natural emotional response.
Other events in your life promoted your triggered sense. Not her. She spoke only of a hypothetical philosophical construct, the entity or domain of religion.
Other people and other arguments have come in your life, and you were remembering those.
Her words were civil.
Lar
Posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2006, at 9:56:02
In reply to Re: guiding principles » 10derHeart, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 9:52:37
Lar,
I know what you're saying, yet I disagree with you in this case.
But I can't elaborate any more. Not here, not now.
Sorry.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 10:18:29
In reply to Re: guiding principles » Larry Hoover, posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2006, at 9:56:02
> Lar,
>
> I know what you're saying, yet I disagree with you in this case.
>
> But I can't elaborate any more. Not here, not now.
>
> Sorry.Of course. I raise only ideas. It is hard, to discuss this. I really do know that, intimately.
What I think I see, is evidence of a religious trigger theme.
Which fairly captures what she was saying, ironically enough.
I'm struggling to throw words around an experience that transcends language.
I do not wish to define another person's experience. I'm trying to tease out the essence of an issue that touches us all.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 11:57:55
In reply to Re: guiding principles » 10derHeart, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 10:18:29
I cannot speak of it, here.
Some religious teachings have it that there is no world without.....
Uhhh
It is not her fault that there are these teachings where to consider the thought she considered is forbidden.
Yet, those same teachings hold that one has until one's death, to find......
You see, I can't.
The rule thought to be violated here is not universal.
In that she had the thought, and stated her preference.
Others may hold other preferences, absent any further consideration of implied anything.
Nothing was implied by what she said.
Unless it is a sin to merely imagine what she said.
But the sense of sin is taught by...
You see?
<sigh>
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 13:58:56
In reply to Re: guiding principles, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 11:57:55
Was Estella blocked, for being an atheist in a Judeo-Christian?? Babble?
No, is an insufficient answer.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 3, 2006, at 15:23:14
In reply to Re: guiding principles, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 13:58:56
Are sophistry and overwrought prose uncivil?
Can they be?
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 3, 2006, at 15:50:06
In reply to Re: guiding principles, posted by Gabbi~G on June 3, 2006, at 15:23:14
inexcusably rude. sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2006, at 22:43:31
In reply to How about changing the, posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 2:51:12
> "I think the world would be a better place without Estella"
hmm.
well i prefer to be free from nikki, or nikki free.
note that that is a statement about me.> Yes, I realise that my post was "un-civil". I decided that I wished to say what I did, and will accept any punishment that comes my way.
hmm.
you decided it was worth a blocking to hurt me.hope you proved your point.
given that performance i think the boards would be better off without nikki. you know, hypothetically and all.
woo hoo 12 weeks bring it on!!!!!!!
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2006, at 22:51:46
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2006, at 22:43:31
> hmm.
> well i prefer to be free from nikki, or nikki free.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt.
You've been asked to be civil before, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to block you from posting.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Posted by Jakeman on June 4, 2006, at 1:05:55
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks, posted by teejay on May 21, 2006, at 18:34:13
Are you willing to reconsider this block?
Respectfully, Jake
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 4, 2006, at 1:32:23
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2006, at 22:43:31
You *know* it wasn't to hurt you. It was to try and prove a point.
Alex, you know, you are just another babbler.. I don't know you enough to even care to try and hurt you over anyone else. I've never received a message of support from you when I have needed it, I've never had much of a "conversation" with you.. so please, don't flatter yourself that I did this as an attempt to hurt you.
You know what, I have had babble *up to here* recently. I am fed up of receiving babble mails sayong "oooh, you must be extra nice to xxx because they are low"? Hang on, has anyone but Larry even noticed I am on the verge of losing it through instense, constant pain of a level that isn't livable with? Has anyone other than Larry offered a hug and support, and not just "oh, you should see the level fo pain *I* live with, its much worse than yours" which is all I seem to get from anyone else in my life. No, but those that shout the loudest *always* get all the attention.
Nothing ever changes
Posted by gardenergirl on June 4, 2006, at 2:05:07
In reply to Re: How about changing the » alexandra_k, posted by NikkiT2 on June 4, 2006, at 1:32:23
Friendly reminder...
Some options:
-Check out the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil-Consult a civility buddy if needed
-Compose your reply and then let it sit for a bit. Post after you've come back to it for revising or editing if needed.
-Email or babblemail Dr. Bob or a deputy if you don't feel you can post your question, comment or concern on the board.
Just a friendly reminder. Here's a virtual box of salt. Take all you may need.
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2006, at 8:25:18
In reply to Re: How about changing the » alexandra_k, posted by NikkiT2 on June 4, 2006, at 1:32:23
> You *know* it wasn't to hurt you. It was to try and prove a point.
I'm sorry Nikki. I'm sorry Estella. I'm sorry Babble. I'm sorry.
I did the same. I know I did. Making examples.
If the sanctions were appropriate, we would not be stuck here.
The solution to that problem, is not to wield the Great Bat of Babble, and smuck somebody into next month (the net effect of a four week block).
I fail to see a single benefit accruing to that act.
<very big sigh>
Lar
Posted by zazenduck on June 4, 2006, at 10:45:34
In reply to Re: How about changing the » alexandra_k, posted by NikkiT2 on June 4, 2006, at 1:32:23
> You *know* it wasn't to hurt you.
Nikki you can't *know* what someone else thinks unless she tells you. I am afraid it might feel a little invalidating to be told soemething like that.
>
> Alex, you know, you are just another babbler..I heartily disagree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alex is one of a kind
>I don't know you enough to even care to try and hurt you over anyone else. I've never received a message of support from you when I have needed it, I've never had much of a "conversation" with you.. so please, don't flatter yourself that I did this as an attempt to hurt you.
>
> You know what, I have had babble *up to here* recently. I am fed up of receiving babble mails sayong "oooh, you must be extra nice to xxx because they are low"? Hang on, has anyone but Larry even noticed I am on the verge of losing it through instense, constant pain of a level that isn't livable with? Has anyone other than Larry offered a hug and support, and not just "oh, you should see the level fo pain *I* live with, its much worse than yours" which is all I seem to get from anyone else in my life.I actually thought of saying something like hope you're feeling better but it seems inadequate and you hardly know me either so I decided to stay on topic. I don't do internet hugs but I am sorry you're in pain and hope it gets better.
> No, but those that shout the loudest *always* get all the attention.Nikki will it make you feel attended to if you don't get blocked for 3 weeks? If you are treated as special re penalties for what you noted what against the rules? Because I think there might be other ways to get attention. Shouting louder might be more direct and more effective? I'm just asking not suggesting that's the case and I certainly don't want you blocked. I don't want anybody blocked. The system stinks. It divides the community and causes conflict and pain all around.
>
> Nothing ever changesI know How many times has this conversation with Bob been held and his response to requests for change always involve adding more time or more rules or more math. And Alex was so danged patient trying to talk to him for so long. That's what makes this one even a little worse for me.
I'm sorry you're in pain and no one is paying any attention.
Posted by curtm on June 4, 2006, at 11:21:22
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2006, at 22:43:31
I said I would no longer post here, but I must. This shall be my last hope.
What if I were to say,
"I think the world would be better off without the following organizations:
Aryan Nations - a group of militant white supremacists[2]
Black Hebrew Israelites - A group of Black Israelites that deems Jews to be evil.
Bobo Ashanti-An offshoot of the Rastafari movement that considers whites to be inherently evil.
British National Party - a far-right political party in the UK.Britain's "The Telegraph"
Christian Identity - A radical offshoot of British Israelism that deems "Aryans" to be the chosen people and that the Jewish community is "false Jews" born of "barbarians" or Satan.
The Creativity Movement - formerly known as "The World Church of the Creator", a religion founded by Ben Klassen which bills itself as "A White Racial Religion" and advocates "Racial Holy War" CNN and self-described.
Front National - a political party in France whose leader proposed deporting 3 million non-Europeans from France in his 1995 presidential election bid.
Imperium europa - A far-right party in the small nation of Malta that gained some attention for its leader being sued for inciting racial hatred. Times of Malta See Norman Lowell
Jewish Defense League & Kahane Chai- Kahanist fringe organizations accused of violence against Arabs and others. Kahanism is the ideology named after Meir Kahane. (Israeli Supreme Court, see their article)
Ku Klux Klan - a group of American white supremacists, founded after the American Civil War. Spartacus, ADL, etc.
Nation of Islam - Founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad and led by Louis Farrakhan who advocates anti-white and anti-semitic positions.
The Nation of Gods and Earths - A more radical offshoot of the Nation of Islam whose methods aren't fully sanctioned by the original group.
National Alliance - White separatist group founded by William Pierce, a former member of George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party.(ADL and self-described)
National Socialist Japanese Workers and Welfare Party - Japanese variant of Nazism. (self described)
Neo-Nazism(self described)
New Black Panther Party - an anti-white, anti-Catholic, anti-semitic organization not sanctioned by the living members of the original Black Panther Party(SPLC)
New Zealand National Front - a group in New Zealand which describes itself as "nationalist" but which has been called "neo-nazi".Stuff.co.nz
Patriotic Youth League - Australian group linked to Neo-Nazism, Sydney Morning Herald
Posse Comitatus (U.S. movement) - Many adhere to Anti-Semitic and related ideals.SPLC
Racist Skinheads - self described
Stormfront.org -White Nationalist discussion forum used by KKK members. Accused of racism.
White Australia Movement - a whites-only immigration movement in Australia. Now largely extinct.
Mexica Movement -- organization that believes indigenous Americans have sovereignty over all of the Americas and are the true owners of both American continents
MEChA -- organization that believes indigenous Mexicans should reclaim the United States southwest for the creation of an indigenous nation."
************************************
List copied from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist
************************************
FYI, I do agree with this statement. Does THAT make me uncil???!!! I'm know there are people who do not agree. (Not to say that any are babblers, but...who knows?)
Posted by teejay on June 4, 2006, at 17:57:59
In reply to Dr. Bob? 3rd request. Re: blocked for 4 weeks, posted by Jakeman on June 4, 2006, at 1:05:55
I'm afraid you appear to be wasting your breath jakeman as have all of us who have put together this monster length thread! Its clear that the overwhelming majority think Dr Bob should reconsider his position but as a true american who believes in democracy he appears deaf to the wishes of the majority. (seems to be a symptom of power in the US)
Whats more, I've noticed how Dr Bob allows his OWN thoughts and opinions to influence his judgements on here. For example, one or two people got blocked for suggesting GWB did bad things, yet when I said Saddams sons were blood thirsty monsters not a thing was said!! So I understand its ok to say one person is bad but not another?!
How about the latest religion issue? I was actually brought up as a STRICT christian but now find the whole concept of religion to be highly offensive. I believe its arguably the biggest contributor to death and suffering in the world today. Dr Bob will of course say that such statements may make other feel hurt or put down, but if someone was to say I should 'find God' or they would pray for me etc etc I would place a large bet that he would not chastise them for potentially upsetting me!
On the basis of all that, I've decided that until such bigotry stops, I will merely confine my postings and discussion to the alternative board and wont get involved in discussions on any other boards due to what I consider unfair and biased moderation of the content along with the inevitable hurtful blocks. People come here for help, support and sense of belonging and continually feeling as though they are walking on egg shells sure isnt going to help too many people.
Regards all
TJ
Posted by henrietta on June 4, 2006, at 19:54:46
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by zazenduck on June 4, 2006, at 10:45:34
duckling!
Thanks zzd. And you're right: Estella is not just another Babbler! She's very very special.
hen
Posted by Damos on June 4, 2006, at 21:32:31
In reply to Re: How about changing the » alexandra_k, posted by NikkiT2 on June 4, 2006, at 1:32:23
Nikki,
Firstly let me say that I'm sorry to read about your chronic severe pain, I cannot begin to imagine what it is like to live with that. And yes I admit to having been completely ignorant of it until just now - it's rare that I go to 'Health', I'm sorry.
We've never posted much beyond 'Books' and I've always enjoyed those conversations, but I have to admit to being appalled by your posts on this thread.
To me they smack of a deliberate malice which is both inexcusable and unforgivable.
Your use of Estella's name amongst other things, to make as you say 'a point' in the first was bad enough.
But then there are your comments in your reply to Larry. Very specific. Very deliberate.
And I will not dignify your remarks to A_K by repeating them.
But still, you did say; "You *know* it wasn't to hurt you." But surely you *knew* it would. How could it not? And not once, not twice, but three times did you do it. If that was not bad enough, then to have the temerity, gall, hide, I don't know what to call it to say in another post that you knew you'd only get a PBC and not a block for your comments. So what precisely are you saying? That there was premeditation. That you saw the chance to take a free swing and slipped in a kick or two while you were at it, and are now standing over her poking your tongue out. Nice.
I had chosen to remain silent on this thread because I didn't feel I could add anything that hadn't been said more intelligently and eloquently by others. And because the only person who could really help the community and the poster to understand and move forward (Bob) has remained largely silent as well. Apart from a suggested rephrase, that was not a rephrase but an entirely different statement.
Yet you chose to add nothing but insult and injury. To be deliberately uncivil, cruel and needlessly unkind to someone with no real right/way of reply. I can only ask why?
What's becoming of this place? Of all of us? If this is what being a 'Babbler' means, then that is not something I choose to be.
All of this leaves me frustrated, disappointed and deeply saddened.
Please take good care of yourself Estella
((((((((((Estella))))))))))
((((((((((Babble))))))))))
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 4, 2006, at 22:15:26
In reply to Sorry GG it's probably uncivil » NikkiT2, posted by Damos on June 4, 2006, at 21:32:31
I felt stung when I read Nikki's post.
I can't comprehend comparing an instution to a person as a point in the first place.If I said I think the world would be a better place without higher education, would that be the same as saying
'
I think the world would be better off without
a certain person? No.It wouldn't even be comparable to saying I think the world would be a better place without students.
I like you NIkki and I *am* sorry about the chronic pain. I didn't know.
But I was surprised by this particular post, especially because you wrote it.
Posted by muffled on June 4, 2006, at 22:54:08
In reply to Re: Sorry GG it's probably uncivil, posted by Gabbi~G on June 4, 2006, at 22:15:26
We all ARE human after all aren't we?
I have found that when someone lashes out at another, its often not so much about the other, than about the person doing the lashing.
I think Nikki is proly hurting in ways other than physical as well as physical pain (I didn't know bout it either :-(
And so is Alex.
And so are so many of us, which is why we are here.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
I'm sorry there's so much pain.
I guess we just have to do the best we are able to at the time, and give others the benefit of the doubt when we can.
Sigh........
Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone.....
I love that passage in the bible, its so cool.
Anyhow, I got multiple trailer truck loads of sin. So I best keep quiet !!!!
Love you guys.
You're so human.
Makes me feel better bout myself. Thanks.
Muffled
Posted by agent858 on June 4, 2006, at 23:11:32
In reply to Well.....babblers......, posted by muffled on June 4, 2006, at 22:54:08
Deep breaths people…
I did feel hurt in response to what Nikki wrote. Mostly because that was the main message my mother used to tell me when I was a kid. But then I guess Nikki doesn’t read my writing posts (and I didn’t read her health post) so she wasn’t to know that. And I wasn’t to know about her pain.I’ve sent her an apology for what I said. I shouldn’t have done that. Should have known better. I know now that she didn’t mean to hurt me and I over-reacted.
Please don’t turn on each other. Please. If that happens it will result in a lot of hurting people. Then people will beg for Bob to come back and hand out blocks in the name of consistency or fairness or somesuch. And then people will be so pleased at his return they will be all nice and supportive of his preserving the status quo.
An important point: I AM NOT ADVOCATING HE GO THROUGH THE ARCHIVES / CURRENT BOARDS HANDING OUT MORE BLOCKS IN THE NAME OF FAIRNESS.
That is an important point.
He is idiosyncratic. Some of his decisions are unfair. Some people not even being warned while another person is blocked for one year FOR EXACTLY THE SAME THING. That is not fair. A certain degree of unfairness is inherent because he is not perfect he is a human being.
My bone of contention is that GIVEN THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF UNFAIRNESS IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE PRESENT MEASURES NEED TO BE TAKEN TO REDUCE THE DETRIMENTAL CONSEQUENCES OF THAT. What does that mean? That means reduced sentences for blockings ESPECIALLY when there are infractions OF THE SAME KIND that have gone unremarked. If we see something we want to make sure he sees, then we can email him a link or post something to admin. If nobody notices when x says ‘sh*t’ while y gets blocked for saying ‘sh*t’ then IMO the appropriate response is ‘sorry that there was an unfairness here’ and the block should max at one or two weeks. It is still an unfairness. It is still an injustice. But it is about minimising the negative impact of the injustice.
But Bob doesn’t do that. His attitude is ‘tough’ and if anything Babblers start to say that other people should be blocked to remedy the injustice. But we don’t want this to become a police state – do we?
Please don’t turn on each other. I didn’t mean for that to happen. Please don’t do it. If you do… Bob will say it is inevitable and this only happened because he was busy or something… And because more people should have been blocked already.
IMO save the blockings for people who deserve them. Save them for the people who come to flame and troll.
Most babblers don’t do that. If it is pointed out to them that they hurt someone most babblers are willing to talk it through. End the police state. Be kind to each other. Good luck.
Posted by agent858 on June 4, 2006, at 23:30:03
In reply to please be kind to each other, posted by agent858 on June 4, 2006, at 23:11:32
yeah i know
enough already...ps if you are going to block people...
you really should do it properly;-)
i don't hate you bob
but you hurt me a great deal
and your saying
'i know you are hurt'
and
'i'm sorry you are hurt'
doesn't do anything to remidy the injusticei learned in dbt that sorry means...
that one is going to take steps to fix the problem / situationif you are sorry about the injustice...
how about doing something about it?
how about taking it seriously?
how about doing something about it?humility...
is a virtue.
a virtue that can go a long way.i know you say this site isn't suited to everyone...
and people might have a hard time fitting in
this place might not be the right place
but then you go on to say especially people who are
borderline
narcissistic
etc
sounds like a slur to those who won't accept your police state to me.humility...
is a virtue.you don't want people to think you are god anyways - do you?
the fall will only be harder.humility...
a little of that might go a long way.you can't remidy past injustices
but you can do something toward minimising the detrimental affect of future ones.learn something from the past
and move fowardhow about modelling that for us?
forgiveness...
that is a virtue too...
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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