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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 94 to 118 of 275. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 5:06:18
In reply to B.T.W, posted by Gabbi~G on June 1, 2006, at 15:07:17
> The implication here that someone's statement is flawed and it would be better all around if things were phrased using specific techniques, is a judgement.
Right, but I don't think Dr Bob or anyone is saying that nobody can make any judgements of any kind, ever. Just that it's not always going to be considered civil on this board to state some of those judgements.
>
> And it's no different than Estella's.
I don't hear Dr Bob saying the world would be better without all those other message boards that don't have civility rules. I hear him saying that this one message board has those rules, and speech is limited here, and because of that, it may not be for everyone. To me those are very different flavors of statements.
Posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 5:37:14
In reply to Re: I-statements, posted by Gabbi~G on June 1, 2006, at 14:25:24
> What sickens me about this is the seeming lack of humanity.
>
> It was so clear that Estella was trying to follow Bob's rules, I could feel the gears working.. "okay...bob doesn't want thinks to be judged negatively, but says I should focus on what I like.. maybe this will be okay"
>
> She'd been so open about the hurt she'd felt from previous blocks.
>
> It reminds me of a little kid trying to avoid a smack from an abusive parent.
>
It's sad if it feels that way to her (or anyone). But we're not little kids trapped with an abusive parent here. We're grownups who can choose to post on this particular message board or not.
Posted by henrietta on June 2, 2006, at 7:48:01
In reply to How about changing the, posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 2:51:12
I have a question about rules. Is anything permissible when using hypotheticals? In my opinion, there ought to be some boundaries, here.
I was recently blocked for quoting a remark made by a conservative political commentator, a remark I made clear I found offensive if not outrageous. Though this is not strictly analagous, I was blocked for repeating an offensive statement, even though I, too, was offended by the statement.I could sort of understand the logic of the block, though, and understand the unsavory precedent I could have set. (Though I don't imagine I was the first to commit this offense, so I don't imagine it was precedent-setting..)
Hypotheticals containing what might be construed as personal attacks should, in my opinion, be similarly censured in order to prevent abuse of this form of discourse.
Just a thought.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:15:44
In reply to Re: Inconsitency » curtm, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2006, at 22:36:08
> I'm not sure I understand why that was directed to me.
>
> ggI think you witnessed posting while drunk.
I'm sorry. Curt will be?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:30:14
In reply to How about changing the, posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 2:51:12
> or, "I think the world would be a better place without Buddhism"
> So, you see where I am going. I, personally, don't believe it awfully civil to say you think the world would be a better place without *anything*.
>
> Sorry, but I agree that how ever hard Estella was trying, it was not a civil statement.
Good job, Nikki!You've done a much better job of bringing the issue out, than I did with the butter tarts analogy. I just picked from the wrong groups of images.
I'm going to want to think about this, because we need to find a way to make this concept generalizable or describable, or all this navel-gazing will again be for nought. Because if we can't lay out some guideline principles, with examples to teach from, then we've failed. If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught.
A rule must be simple enough to learn that it will protecte you when you don't yet understand the nuances of the rule. In other words, if you follow the rule literally, you cannot fall afoul of one of its idiosyncracies. That's what brings me anger here. Here we have an intelligent sensitive being, trying extremely hard to accomodate a rule that she cannot discern, in this instance. Her efforts were profoundly civil, but she was blocked anyway. Notwithstanding the civility rule, her efforts should have protected her.
I stand by my earlier decision though. What Estella said is not equivalent to e.g. the buddhism or jew comparators.
She was speaking at a different level entirely. It could only be uncivil if it was misunderstood.
I have been struggling all along to make my point, because I can't say it here. Do you all grasp that? My idea is uncivil in this realm, yet it is not uncivil at all.
The ruling is consistent with this realm. But that does not address the fact that good and kind people are being hurt by this. If that didn't happen, I'd happily live with the rule. You see? It's the very real damage being done that is the issue.
I see where the line is, but good people are getting harmed by where the line is.
What about the option of formally withdrawing a statement, because of this stalemate between the two equally passionately held views of human existence?
As it stands now, once uttered, it's off with your head......unless you can utter the magic phrases that make the offense go away.
You know? The solution I/she all the rest have been offered is nothing more than a ritual. Say it this way, and the block goes away......
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:32:19
In reply to Re: I-statements » Gabbi~G, posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 5:37:14
> It's sad if it feels that way to her (or anyone). But we're not little kids trapped with an abusive parent here. We're grownups who can choose to post on this particular message board or not.
I'm weeping as I type this, but Tabs, for some people, Babble is the first family they *ever* had. The stakes are not as you define them.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on June 2, 2006, at 8:59:18
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:30:14
As far as I know, based on past practice, it is possible in the face of a Please Rephrase to apologize for any offense and withdraw the statement.
If that's what one wishes to do, it seems like a safe option.
Is this true, Dr. Bob?
It would also be safe, in a Please Rephrase situation, to run the proposed rephrase by a deputy or by Dr. Bob offboard and have the onboard version accompanied by that information. Dr. Bob may still consider it an unacceptable rephrase, but I doubt he'd block.
Atlhough, as I've stated before, if someone's clearly trying to rephrase, I think a second or third chance should be given. As we've seen on this thread, sometimes it's hard to convey and sometimes it's hard to understand the civility guidelines.
Posted by curtm on June 2, 2006, at 9:00:07
In reply to Re: Inconsitency » curtm, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2006, at 22:36:08
That wasn't directed at you. Damn I accidently checked the box. I'm sorry dear. Please forgive.
Curt
Posted by curtm on June 2, 2006, at 9:15:48
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:30:14
Which statement is more civil?
** I think I would be better off without everyone.
** I think everyone would be better off without me.
not drunk curtm
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 9:31:58
In reply to Gardenergirl- oops » gardenergirl, posted by curtm on June 2, 2006, at 9:00:07
> That wasn't directed at you. Damn I accidently checked the box. I'm sorry dear. Please forgive.
>
> CurtI'm sorry for saying what I did, curt, about PWD.
It's one of those unintended consequences.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 9:36:45
In reply to Re: I-statements » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:32:19
The United Nations has approved certain principles, which may guide us here. About human rights, and the protection of individuals from bias arising from sexual orientation, age, gender, religion, and so on.
That may be a framework to consider. A declaration of individual rights, and reasonable limits on free speech.
The thing is, by using the overall and all-encompassing noun "religion", Estella did not violate the principles that are embodied in the human rights guidelines. She did not.
By not specifying, she did not break the rules.
No identifiable person was defined in her very carefully chosen language.
Lar
Posted by curtm on June 2, 2006, at 9:41:47
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl- oops » curtm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 9:31:58
Thank you Lar. I'm cool. You're cool. Everybody's cool.
It did catch me by surprise, but we knew I was PWD anyway so...
I still might have inadvertently checked the box if I wasn't, though. I hope gg gets my message soon. Dmnt.
However, sober I still feel the same about Bob right now. Would I have put it in print? I hope so.Have a good day Lar
Posted by Dinah on June 2, 2006, at 9:53:55
In reply to guiding principles, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 9:36:45
I really don't want to argue the point anymore, not least because I don't wish to hurt Estella.
But I will say that Estella has many people here who care about her, and would be more than willing to review posts she's concerned about. Myself included. I may not always understand how Dr. Bob will read something, but I understood that one, and could have helped prevent a block.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 10:03:24
In reply to Re: guiding principles » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 2, 2006, at 9:53:55
> I really don't want to argue the point anymore, not least because I don't wish to hurt Estella.
>
> But I will say that Estella has many people here who care about her, and would be more than willing to review posts she's concerned about. Myself included. I may not always understand how Dr. Bob will read something, but I understood that one, and could have helped prevent a block.You know that you have precisely defined what is at issue? I call it Bobjectivity. Not to be insulting, or denigrating, or condescending. Just to give it a name. A word for it.
Lar
Posted by zazenduck on June 2, 2006, at 10:05:41
In reply to How about changing the, posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 2:51:12
Please consider another hypothetical
I think the (insert nationality) people are temperamentally unsuited to being at the center of whatever they are at the center of
tem·per·a·ment
n. The manner of thinking, behaving, or reacting characteristic of a specific person
Why is this civil if Estella's statement isn't? It's quite the blanket condemnation isn't it? An entire group of people and not one of them has the manner of thinking behaving or acting suitable to being in the center of anything whatever they may find themselves to be the center of. That's rather a broad statement.
It is an opinion just like Estella's was. And I cannot comprehend why Estella has been singled out to be banned for a month. If Estella has read statements such as this which are not condemned by Bob how should she be able to determine what is and is not allowed? So it becomes just a random decision of Bob's and not based on the community standards represented on the board.It's not fair. And it's not fair to enforce the rules selectively. And it's not fair just to protest when it's affecting someone you care about.
Don't Make Freeing Nikki Necessary. (you don't really think you'll be blocked do you :( ?Whatever for?
Free Estella.
Free pie and chips.
Your friend
Zazenduck
Posted by greywolf on June 2, 2006, at 10:29:45
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by zazenduck on June 2, 2006, at 10:05:41
I go away for a couple days, and I miss all this. The chance to spar with Lar ;), and pie and chips.
Posted by Dinah on June 2, 2006, at 10:40:02
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by zazenduck on June 2, 2006, at 10:05:41
Precisely what I've been trying to say.
I wish I had your way with words. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on June 2, 2006, at 11:39:30
In reply to Gardenergirl- oops » gardenergirl, posted by curtm on June 2, 2006, at 9:00:07
Posted by gardenergirl on June 2, 2006, at 11:50:01
In reply to Re: guiding principles » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 10:03:24
> You know that you have precisely defined what is at issue? I call it Bobjectivity. Not to be insulting, or denigrating, or condescending. Just to give it a name. A word for it.
>
> LarRight or wrong, Bobjectivity is what's in play here. There's nothing wrong with discussing what would be better or what "should be", but the reality is that Bob gets to decide. And until he shows any interest in considering making such a change to his civility policies, I need to direct my energies in directions where I can feel more effective.
Respectfully,
gg
Posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 12:16:44
In reply to Re: I-statements » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:32:19
> > It's sad if it feels that way to her (or anyone). But we're not little kids trapped with an abusive parent here. We're grownups who can choose to post on this particular message board or not.
>
> I'm weeping as I type this, but Tabs, for some people, Babble is the first family they *ever* had. The stakes are not as you define them.
>Lar, I'm sorry. I've seen you (are we talking about you?) get emotionally battered by blocks here, and by Dr Bob's particular style of responsiveness or lack of responsiveness. It's painful to watch. The setup here is not good as a substitute family. Dr Bob's admin style is not good parenting. It's not even good group therapy. So if you try to get nurturing/parenting/therapy from Dr Bob, you're going to get sucker-punched, over and over. And I hate to see that happen. But I don't think you're ever going to get Dr Bob to change his style to be good parenting or good therapy. It's not his intent to provide that here. The best you can get here is peer support. And that's not really family or therapy either. You can get burned trying to make it into that.
I'm reminded of something I went through several years ago. Suddenly I was trying re-live high school or something with some 20-something coworkers. I was trying to get the peer acceptance I didn't get in school. But the trouble was, I'd chosen a group that was just rejecting me over and over. So what I ended up doing was repeating that rejection experience, rather than getting that healing I was seeking. My therapist just kind of watched sadly, and tried to get me to see I was punishing myself with my quest.
I think how my therapist felt is a bit how I feel watching the various blocking dramas here. Like I'm watching people working out old issues in a place that's going to only hurt them again and again. I wish they'd see that this isn't the place to work that stuff out. I wish they'd see that they're punishing themselves with it. I wish they had better support in their lives so they wouldn't need to try and work those things out on PB Admin. But at some point, I lose patience with the dramas, and just want those people to have their Adult self step in and make some decisions to take care of their vulnerable Child self. That might mean leaving this place, or getting some real-life support to take the place of the online group, or to supplement it. We *are* grownups and we *do* have choices, even when our old issues are being triggered. It helps me to keep that in sight, or else I might drown in sympathy myself.
> Lar
>
>
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 2, 2006, at 12:51:40
In reply to Re: I-statements » Gabbi~G, posted by Tabitha on June 2, 2006, at 5:37:14
I think choices, no matter how free they appear, are subject to the constraints of life circumstance.
I don't think we all have the same choices, or can decide whether or not it's simple for someone to leave a support group or not, especially when mental illness is involved.
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 13:00:08
In reply to Re: How about changing the..dr bob, posted by henrietta on June 2, 2006, at 7:48:01
Yes, I realise that my post was "un-civil". I decided that I wished to say what I did, and will accept any punishment that comes my way.
Nikki
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 2, 2006, at 13:07:24
In reply to Re: Gardenergirl- oops » curtm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 9:31:58
I didn't lift it.
A reminder
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 13:16:07
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2006, at 8:30:14
Larry,
You *know* we're not going to agree on this don't you?! I guess I just see it from an entirely different angle.
I don't actually believe, or mean, any of the statements I made.. but I know that what I have said is against the civility rules here. I know that my intention won't be taken into account, as Dr Bob doesn't, and can't in my opinion, take intention into account. You can *never* be 100% sure of the intention of anyone but yourself.> If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught.
Not always. There are students that cannot, or will not, learn. For what ever reason. There are also students that do learn, but choose to act like they didn't.
>The ruling is consistent with this realm. But that does not address the fact that good and kind people are being hurt by this.
And good and kind people can be hurt by comments online.
I hate seeing you upset though.. I really do
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 2, 2006, at 13:22:38
In reply to Re: How about changing the » NikkiT2, posted by zazenduck on June 2, 2006, at 10:05:41
To be honest, no, I don't believe I will be blocke, but I believe I will receive a PBC. If I don't, then questions should be asked.
I think I will only receive a PBC, as its a long time since I received one, and even longer since I was blocked. Under the rules, I think that means just a PBC.And, there is precedent that you shouldn't even be un-civil hypothetically.
So, technically, your statement is also uncivil, but would probably only warrant a please re-phrase as it covers *everyone* in the world. Where as not everyone in the world has a religion.
Am I making any sense?
Nikki x
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