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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 9:37:04
In reply to Blocked » verne, posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 9:33:36
Dr. Bob can always overturn and reverse or adjust deputy actions. If you have any concerns about this administrative action, you can email Dr. Bob, whose address is at the bottom of this page.
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:25:45
In reply to Blocked » verne, posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 9:33:36
> > Can I get blocked for life if I say I dislike the way you argue crap from every which way?
Just for the record I'm not feeling hurt or accused or put down or anything like that in response to the above statement. And I'd rather Verne wasn't blocked over it because I'd rather he get to still hang around and talk about this stuff some more.
I don't mean that to be unsupportive of Dinah's decision...
But I am having a little trouble with the blocking system etc.
And I'm just saying that what he said doesn't upset me.
I do argue things every which way.
Fact.
And I don't see that as a bad thing.
IMHO it is a good thing to be able to consider the arguments on both sides.
Verne mightn't like it
But IMO he is entitled to his opinion.
And I'm not taking it personally.
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:43:45
In reply to Re: CORRECT LINKS, posted by verne on May 11, 2006, at 7:46:33
> "thank you for support" in direct opposition to a bit of contention I raised.
> It just turns into anothe SUPPORT FEST and ALLIANCES. Geez, someone is cranky with so-and-so, let's just lend our support rather than even think about what's going on.
Ah. I think I get what you mean. I think sometimes people struggle with what is being said... And they feel a bit unsafe / insecure / nervous about what is said. And so people do offer support to one another. And I guess one thing that does... Is that sometimes it might well appear that it is about supportive alliances. And that those supportive alliances are really about being unsupportive to the person who is trying to get people thinking...
> Nowhere does anyone really talk about my concerns.
Which concerns?
> You started to get real lately...You mean because I acted out of anger?
> but went back to the drbob "supportive" thing.
Because I realised I said things that hurt people I cared about. I don't know how things go with your daughter... My guess would be that if you act out of anger... And hurt her... Then you kind of have some repairing to do. IMHO it isn't about acting on Dr Bob's instruction that we support each other... It was about my appreciating that I hurt my friends.
> I'm so done with this place. I don't value this site any more or less because I'm DONE with it, please don't value it more because you are INVOLVED IN IT. Let's not let that cloud our perception.You are involved. You are here. You read. You post. You read.
Sounds to me like you FEEL like an outsider here....
And that you PERCEIVE you are an outsider here....I guess what I wonder about that is how much of it is fulfilling what you expect to happen. You think people won't accept you so you tend to interpret their comments as being unsupportive of you.
Like I said... I tried offering support to you... But I couldn't figure how to do that in a way that led to your feeling happier or appreciating my efforts rather than feeling unhappy with me or perceiving me to be attacking or hurting or something like that.
And I didn't want to upset you... So I figured I didn't know how to reach out to you and I had better leave you alone.
By "real" do you mean expressing your feelings?
Are people "more real" to you when they are expressing your feelings (ie of anger etc)?
> Can I get blocked for life if I say I dislike the way you argue crap from every which way?I hope not.
It is a skill I learned. To try and consider the best arguments from both sides and hence come to a considered opinion. Of course the arguments that are most intuitively compelling varies as a function of how one is feeling (among other things) but oh well fact: people have psychology.
In the words of Wittgenstein...
The aim is not to spare other people the trouble of thinking but rather to stimulate them to thoughts of their own.
> what do you call the extensive and labored aruging you call posting?
maybe also but never just. i have lots of posts. not all of them are arguments. perhaps you are focusing on that which you do not like...
>Is that making people feel better somehow?
are your posts making people feel better somehow? i thought you agreed that isn't the only thing of importance...
> Crap, you don't even know which side your arguing half the f*cking time!
Maybe that is because I'm not trying to argue a side. maybe it is because i am sharing thoughts / arguments and people can take what they will...
> So, please don't bring up SUPPORT. That's not what you do. Be honest with yourself.its what i do sometimes.
and i think it is probably what you do sometimes too.
> I just hate long argumentive posts about nothing from boths sides of nothing.
>
> Clear that up and we're fine.you are of course free to ignore my posts if they are not to your taste.
Posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 11:11:00
In reply to Re: CORRECT LINKS » verne, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:43:45
You know, people do manage to spur their own selves to thinking on occasion. :) And can be nudged into thinking about what you want them to think about with just a few gentle open ended questions.
Think of us as responsive riding horses rather than mules?
I always get a bit offended when I think someone thinks they need to prod or spur me to think. And when I'm offended I tend to think the opposite of what people wish for me to think.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. And if so, I apologize.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 11, 2006, at 13:31:04
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:25:45
I'm glad you don't feel accused or put down by verne's post. It's never a fun feeling to feel that way in my experience.
I just wanted to point something out. This may or may not be relevant to your post, but anyway, here it is.
Although Dinah cited one part of the post when she blocked verne, that doesn't necessarily mean that the quoted section was the sole reason for the block. It appeared to me that another section of the post was not about/directed to just you, per se. Thus, if one is considering whether a person could feel accused or put down by verne's post, there are more "people in Bob's head" as you've put it ;) than just the person the post replied to, in this case you.
From my own perspective, when I write a "blocked" post in response to a post which contains multiple statements which could be considered uncivil, it can be difficult to know exactly what to quote from the post. I don't want to hammer out a laundry list of quotes, but I also don't want my choice to imply that one statement might be more "block-worthy" than another when there more than one in a post. Similarly, when there are multiple posts which could be cited in a block, it can appear that the posts that don't get cited are acceptable under civility guidelines when they might not be.
Just wanted to share this. It could be totally extraneous, and if so, feel fee to ignore. :)
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 11, 2006, at 13:39:02
In reply to verne's block » Estella, posted by gardenergirl on May 11, 2006, at 13:31:04
> I also don't want my choice to imply that one statement might be more "block-worthy" than another when there more than one in a post. Similarly, when there are multiple posts which could be cited in a block, it can appear that the posts that don't get cited are acceptable under civility guidelines when they might not be.
GG, it is not extraneous to note these extra facts. It is my belief that extra information of this sort is an important thing for the deputy/Bob to acknowledge. It could be simply put, as a subordinate clause. Nothing fancy required. Better noted, methinks, than silent.
Lar
Posted by Declan on May 11, 2006, at 15:24:50
In reply to No Offense, posted by verne on May 11, 2006, at 9:24:16
Posted by zazenduck on May 11, 2006, at 17:56:48
In reply to He's done it!!!! (nm) » verne, posted by Declan on May 11, 2006, at 15:24:50
I hope your block is everything you want it to be :)
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:30
In reply to Re: CORRECT LINKS » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 11, 2006, at 11:11:00
it was a quote from wittgenstein.
> You know, people do manage to spur their own selves to thinking on occasion.
of course.
i didn't mean that people weren't thinking.
i meant that i was providing some material to think about.urgency.
sometimes i feel a sense of urgency.
sometimes it feels like things get talked around and talked around...
mostly so things will be forgotten about and put away.
i didn't want that to happen.
i'm sorry
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:24:30
In reply to verne's block » Estella, posted by gardenergirl on May 11, 2006, at 13:31:04
> It appeared to me that another section of the post was not about/directed to just you, per se. Thus, if one is considering whether a person could feel accused or put down by verne's post, there are more "people in Bob's head" as you've put it ;) than just the person the post replied to, in this case you.
Right. I suppose that people *might* feel offended.
What was Verne saying?
My understanding... The thing that really sticks out for me...
Is that he feels like an outsider here.
He doesn't really feel like part of things.
He interprets the support
As being negatively directed
Against the person who is disagreeing with the person who is offering support.
And so he thinks the support is phoneyAnd yet...
He must want to fit in to a certain degree 'cause he is / was still here...
Maybe Verne isn't so clear on how much he is seeing the boards the way they "really" are vs how much he is projecting out on to the boards.He gets blocked because he didn't get that distinction hence he thought the boards were a certain way hence he says things out of anger...
And people could help him...
Or maybe they don't get the distinction either
Hence they might well feel all offended
And try and get Verne blocked.:-(
(This isn't meant to be unsupportive of gg I'm just trying to say something about why I think a block harms more than helps in this kind of situation. Couldn't deputies (and other posters) step in and try and help so that others are less likely to feel offended? So that a hurting person doesn't have to be blocked? And how long is he going to get for that anyway? What if I said that other posters being blocked... Is something that offends and hurts me?)
And when Verne comes back (if he comes back) then what has he learned?
He has learned that he has to shut the hell up if he wants to not get blocked. And hence IMHO he is even more likely to lash out and rebel.
Because sometimes people prefer pre emptive strike to hanging ones head to ones likely fate
And again... How is this helping?
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
In reply to Re: verne's block » gardenergirl, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:24:30
>Couldn't deputies (and other posters) step in and try and help so that others are less likely to feel offended?
but, we're not therapists, or pdocs or psychologists here ( as a rule). We're not trained in conflict resolution.
Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..
Personally, I would rather feel safe here with things the way they are.. Safe from knowing I cannot be attacked.
have you ever had a "cyber stalker"? Someone who discovers websites you post on, follows you there and continually posts personal information about you and incredibly upsetting abusive messages? I have, for many many years... But here I always knew was safe, as if he ever found me here (which luckily he didn't, as I used my RT name, not my commonly known virtual-name) I knew I would be protected by the rules and blocks.
I guess the problems is.. there are a chunk of us who like it here as it is, yet there is another chunk who want PB to be *their* way.. This has happened regularly over the years I have been here (and seen it just about all other sites I use that "have rules").
I'm tired of PB these days.. I find the arguing of so many small points to be very very tiring. And you know what, its making me forget the good points and the goo people.. Which is very sad
Nikki
Posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 5:13:51
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 3:48:32
> but, we're not therapists, or pdocs or psychologists here ( as a rule). We're not trained in conflict resolution.
that is right we are not.
but does that mean that people should be blocked because they can't tell the difference between other peoples sh*t and their sh*t? isn't that a worthwile skill to learn? shouldn't deputies be able to do this? bob seems to be able to not take stuff personally (which enables him to interveane without lashing out) if deputies don't understand that / aren't guided by that...
> Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..yeah. whatever that means... sometimes people don't understand the difference... don't understand that their interpretation may not reflect reality... so you think they should be blocked and that is just too bad????
> Personally, I would rather feel safe here with things the way they are.. Safe from knowing I cannot be attacked.and safe knowing you won't be blocked.
you haven't been blocked - have you?but then you are interested in the politics board...
and yet you don't post there - do you?
> have you ever had a "cyber stalker"? Someone who discovers websites you post on, follows you there and continually posts personal information about you and incredibly upsetting abusive messages? I have, for many many years... But here I always knew was safe, as if he ever found me here (which luckily he didn't, as I used my RT name, not my commonly known virtual-name) I knew I would be protected by the rules and blocks.
and so the issue isn't around the current blocking system vs. us being left to fend for ourselves... there are good usages of the current blocking system... sure...
> I guess the problems is.. there are a chunk of us who like it here as it is, yet there is another chunk who want PB to be *their* way.. This has happened regularly over the years I have been here (and seen it just about all other sites I use that "have rules").right. and the people who haven't been blocked. surely their opinion is worth more...
> I'm tired of PB these days.. I find the arguing of so many small points to be very very tiring. And you know what, its making me forget the good points and the goo people.. Which is very sadhmm. maybe you need a break from admin?????
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 11:50:50
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
> bob seems to be able to not take stuff personally (which enables him to interveane without lashing out) if deputies don't understand that / aren't guided by that...
Do you think I took Verne's post personally and lashed out?
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:12:46
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
I have been blocked, yes. Twice, maybe three times, I don't really remember. Maybe more, as things have got quite heated between me and someone else here at times. Someone who I accept pulls my triggers badly, and who I cannot remain calm with. I left for a short while, but made the decision that I wanted to be here more than I didn't want to be here, and that I had to take the risk of my actions.
I read the politics board yes, but no, I don't post. Again, a decision I have made. Partly due to trying to get round the civility rules, and partly due to me not actually wanting to discuss politics with the poeple here. I have found somewhere else to do it.
I think I am losing the point of what YOU want here. You admit there are good uses of the blocking system.. So what is it you want? Remember, no one here is a mind reader, and often cannot know what the true intent of a message is.
And I had a really deep insightful comment to finish with, but went and dished up dinner and totally forgot it *L* (darned painkillers!)
Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
In reply to I'll never forget the goo people ;^) (nm) » NikkiT2, posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 5:13:51
*pmp*
I missed this earlier somehow!!
Goo is important in life. Goo people are like molten jelly babies *L*
N x
Posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 14:00:34
In reply to Re: I'll never forget the goo people ;^) » gardenergirl, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
Posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
> Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..
****yeah. whatever that means... sometimes people don't understand the difference... don't understand that their interpretation may not reflect reality... so you think they should be blocked and that is just too bad????*****
Blocks do not happen out of the blue. There are several warnings leading up to the block. I think the system was designed that way to give people a chance to reflect on the way their posts are being interpreted by others.
If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.
We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone and after warnings the responsibility rests with the poster to see that.
Posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it. I hope he got some pleasure out of being here; he gave me a lot of fun.
Declan
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 11:50:50
> Do you think I took Verne's post personally and lashed out?no.
i just meant that bob seems to be more focused on blocking / punishing people...
and so i figure he trains deputies to do the same...
when there are other ways to handle things.
i'm sorry.
i think i put my foot in it again :-(
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people. :) Although that does paint an amusing picture. I can just see the blackboard illustrations. (I hope you see the humor in it too. If not, excuse me.)
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:55:51
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
> I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
no... but then how about 'quick draw bob'
?
sometimes...
it is relative...
> And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people.oh. i thought there were guidelines on when it was okay to interveane (with warnings / blockings) and when it was not okay to interveane. i thought there were rules on block length (though that might be changing...) etc etc.
so... doesn't that mean he does give you training in punishing people?
er... does he give you training in deescalating the situation?
in other ways of calming things down?or... just a system of punishment?
this isn't about you. you do what is in your job description.
i'm just wondering about the job description is all...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:04
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
> Blocks do not happen out of the blue.depends on what you mean by 'out of the blue'.
i thought i've seen some come fairly much 'out of the blue'.
> If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
how about their hurts???> We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone.
right. but bob's interpretations...
are the ones that really matter.with respect to being exiled etc etc.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
> But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it.
i wonder why?
resigning himself to his likely fate?????
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 4:00:53
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
aka...
did the blocking system...
escalate the situation...
actually resulting in incivility.bob has wondered how much his presence might provoke incivility...
i wonder whether bob has wondered how much his blocking system might provoke incivility.
and i wonder whether bob has wondered whether the former might happen (if it does...) in virtue of the latter.
perhaps...
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