![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:15:35
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of this thread-nttoread?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 16:12:02
> Friends,
> It is written here,[...I find them disrespectfull...].
> Friends, if I was to let go what is posted here by Dr. Hsiung ,[...not to read in the first place...]Yes, I did write that I find your references to the Nazis disrespectful to the millions of people who who experienced the horrors of those years. AND NOW YOU RESPOND BY DOING IT AGAIN???
It may not be stated explicitely in the civility FAQ for this site, but in many parts of the world, Lou, it is considered decidedly UNcivil to continue to do something which you have been told is so upsetting to someone else. That's something else to consider, Lou, the difference between the letter of the law, and the SPIRIT of the law. If you don't know the difference between those two things, Lou, ask someone else. I'm not going to explain it.
> In studying the causes of the Nazi Holocaust, one of the propaganda techniques used by the Nazis was to defame anyone jewish by stigmatizing them, making others feel enbarraseed to be associate with jews, make people think that the jews could harm them, that the jews are like rats carring disease, viruses that will infect them, that the jews are the cause of their problems.
Lou, one difference between what the Nazis did and what is happening here is that the Jews were singled out SOLELY because of their religious and ethnic heritage. Anything an individual Jew might have done or not done meant nothing. By birth alone, ALL Jews were targets.Here, though, Lou, we are judged by our actions, by what we write, by how we treat others. If anyone is suggesting that others not read what you write, perhaps it is because you have SHOWN us, time after time, through you own words, that you will ignore most of what people reply to you, in favor of picking out one or more picyune details to pick apart -- and will often bring up the Holocaust as if that somehow justifies your ignoring other people's expressions of distress at reading something you've written!
I guess I just don't understand how your response to my post can be seen as anything besides inconsiderate and ill-meant.
>I do not appreciate having others write that I could be the cause of anyone's problems and I do not consider that my posts harm anyone here by writing civil posts here and would appreciate it if Dr. Hsiung delete the part in question.
Lou, you may not be the cause of anyone's problems, but what you write here certainly has contributed to others' problems.
And can you see the contradiction between expressing your belief that everyone else should take responsibility for their own actions or reactions, and your utter refusal to do so yourself?
Posted by Jen Star on July 14, 2005, at 17:30:25
In reply to Question about personal responsibility here, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 14:41:52
Racer and Lou,
I agree with what Racer wrote. Lou, it does disturb me when you write posts that seem to compare the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis to commonplace activities here on the Babble boards.Lou, I understand that your faith is very important to you. However, I do feel somewhat offended to hear this kind of comparison brought up from time to time, especially when the possible infraction by the Babbler in question is very minor compared to the suffering of the Jews. To me, it seems like hyperbole. And I wonder whether these kinds of comparisons make you more upset about certain posts than you need to be.
JenStar
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 17:40:51
In reply to Are you trying to be offensive? » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:15:35
Lou,
Actually, it is really quite simple to be polite and bring out your point. I don't understand why you are prompted to bring in Nazi's actions into such a simple thing as being asked to be polite in a discussion board, and to advise other people not to read your posts, and that also by the owner of the discussion board if he so sees fit. I would have done the same if I was in Dr. Bob's position. IF you wish to contest Dr. Bob's decision, you can do so by much more civil means, than by comparing his actions to Nazi.I do consider your comparisions with Nazis EXTREMELY disturbing, and when someone like Racer, brings it up, a polite response to that would be to acknowledge it and say sorry and not do it again, instead of repeating the same thing again and causing further damage.
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:45:03
In reply to I agree with Racer, JenStar and GG and Dr. Bob. » Racer, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 17:40:51
Thank you, Pinkeye. Something about your words feels very soothing and kind to me, and you've just applied a kind of balm to me.
I appreciate it.
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:19:24
In reply to Are you trying to be offensive? » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 17:15:35
> I guess I just don't understand how your response to my post can be seen as anything besides inconsiderate and ill-meant.
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
I'm sorry Racer, and I know you're upset, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or anyone wants to review the civility guidelines, here is a link. There are some good guidelines in there for things to do when you're upset.
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:24:39
In reply to Please be civil » Racer, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:19:24
and ask him to look at this thread.
He can review any deputy actions at that time, as well as review all the posts on the thread.
I know feelings are running high, but if everyone could try to keep the civility guidelines in mind it could keep the fallout at a minimal level.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 18:25:09
In reply to Please be civil » Racer, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 18:19:24
Thanks, Dinah. As you can see below, I realized that I wrote things I shouldn't have AFTER hitting the submit button, and regretted it.
Thank you for your understanding and patience.
I'll go sit quietly in the corner now...
Posted by alexandra_k on July 14, 2005, at 19:26:23
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of this thread-nttoread?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 16:12:02
> In studying the causes of the Nazi Holocaust, one of the propaganda techniques used by the Nazis was to defame anyone jewish by stigmatizing them, making others feel enbarraseed to be associate with jews, make people think that the jews could harm them, that the jews are like rats carring disease, viruses that will infect them, that the jews are the cause of their problems. There is nothing to buy from me here, but the only thing that I can offer here is what I write. But if you follow that site, you will se that books were burnt that were not according to the "master race" ideology.
:-(
It must really suck to have that in your history.I know I have a lot of things in mine that I have a tendancy to see in the present too...
And it is hard.
I'm sorry Lou.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 19:39:53
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to gg- » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on July 14, 2005, at 17:11:04
> >...then IMO, I feel defamed here. That may not be a definition of legal defamation in some jurisdictions, but that is how I feel.
> > Lou
>
> I believe you, Lou. And I'm sad for you. I wish you felt free to feel more at ease here. But I do understand being vigilant in guarding against that which hurts you.
>
> (((Lou)))
>
> gg
>
>
Gardenergirl,
You wrote,[...but I do understand being vigilant in guarding against that which hurts you....].
I thank you for writing that because it could have the potential for others to see that my feelings are to be considered here also. You also wrote,[...I wish you felt free to be more at ease here...]. Friends, that statement says more than volumes to me. It says librarys to me.
Best wishes to you all.
Lou
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 19:43:16
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of this thread-nttoread?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 16:12:02
> Friends,
> It is written here,[...I find them disrespectfull...].
> I feel that there are great implications to his writing and I am requesting to him that he delete the part about[..not to read...].I don't happen to agree with this, because I read what Dr Bob wrote as being a reminder to someone else that, if that someone wasn't sure he/she could respond civilly, he/she didn't have to respond at all -- and that, if that wasn't possible because of his/her reactions, maybe not even read the posts in question in the first place. It wasn't about you -- it was about the other poster.
Additionally, most of us here probably don't read every post on the boards. I, for instance, don't read posts on the medication board that involve drugs that I have no information about, unless those posts are written by someone I "know" and care about. I don't read certain types of posts on other boards, either because I don't know that I could be civil if I responded, or simply because the subject doesn't interest me. Dr Bob reminding one person that the civility guidelines here trump the individual's right to self-expression doesn't strike me as having any further implications.
> In studying the causes of the Nazi Holocaust, one of the propaganda techniques used by the Nazis was to defame anyone jewish by stigmatizing them, making others feel enbarraseed to be associate with jews, make people think that the jews could harm them, that the jews are like rats carring disease, viruses that will infect them, that the jews are the cause of their problems. There is nothing to buy from me here, but the only thing that I can offer here is what I write. But if you follow that site, you will se that books were burnt that were not according to the "master race" ideology.
This sort of analogy offends me very deeply, Lou, and I get upset when I read this sort of thing in your posts. To me, it doesn't raise the petty squabbles here at Babble to greater importance -- it cheapens the real suffering of millions of people during the Holocaust. I'm not sure that is quite the message you wish to convey.
I don't think anyone here is asking that anyone else be silent. I don't think that anyone here wants to stifle anyone else's self-expression EXCEPT when that self-expression causes us pain. It's kinda like having the right to free speech, but not having the right to shout "FIRE!!" in a crowded theater.
That said, I am asking you, Lou, please to consider how someone else might react to your posts in which you refer to what happened in Germany half a century ago with what happens here, on these boards. I'm asking you to consider how it might feel for me, when every time I read that sort of thing, I think of people I loved a great deal, nearly all the grown up women around me, many of whom had tatoos from the camps, most of whom had lost loved ones there. When you write that Dr Bob suggesting that someone might want to consider whether or not he or she can read a post without reacting and responding in an uncivil manner, please consider how it might affect others who might have close ties to those events.
For the record, I often find myself crying after reading those references, because of my pain, and grief over loved ones lost -- and over my frustration that those events are being used in such a small arena, to describe utterly different situations. This isn't about burning books, it's about asking that we ALL be treated with respect, including respect for the potential pain that we might feel when reading the words of others.
> I do not appreciate having others write that I could be the cause of anyone's problems and I do not consider that my posts harm anyone here by writing civil posts here and would appreciate it if Dr. Hsiung delete the part in question.
> Lou
>
>
>I think that what was being suggested, Lou -- and certainly what I would like to suggest -- is not that you "caused" anyone else's problems, but that other people who already have problems might be triggered by words they read on these boards. I've seen a number of posts in which other posters here have tried to tell you that they have experienced pain brought on by reading your words. Most of those people take responsibilty for their reactions, rather than saying that you CAUSED them pain; and those who do say that you caused their pain generally get a PBC. That's appropriate, because we are responsible for our feelings, just as we are responsible for our actions.
At the same time, despite many times that I have seen other people ask you if you feel as though you have any responsibilty for the consequences of what you have written, I have never seen you respond to those questions. To me, it feels as though you are evading the question -- I'm not saying that you are, I actually think that you haven't noticed that the question is there. I have a hard time reading some of your posts, because my interpretation has been that you write as if you believe that what other people write can hurt you, but that what you write is neutral. Again, that is my interpretation of what I have read, NOT a reflection of your intent. I would like it if you could tell me what it is that I'm missing, so that I don't continue to misinterpret what you write; or to tell me that you really do feel as though your posts are entirely neutral? I would like to know.
Meanwhile, I am sorry that I few off the handle earlier, and I hope that you can take in my message in what I hope is a more civil form. I'll write it again, in hope that it is clear: Please consider whether others might be hurt by what you write, just as you ask that we consider whether you might be hurt by the words of others.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 19:50:22
In reply to Re: Lou's response to aspects of this thread-nttoread? » Lou Pilder, posted by alexandra_k on July 14, 2005, at 19:26:23
Friends,
It is written here,[...and it is hard...].
Yes it is hard. And that is one of the reasons that I want to take the opportunity on this administrative board to explore the potential ramifications of thois subject in question. It is not my intention to compare this forum with the Nazi athority, but to have others here have a knowlege of the causes of the Holocaust so that we can take those cause into consideration in our formulation of the PsychoBabble Beacon of Light.
When people come ashore on this Island, I would like for us to have a knowlege of the Holocaust so that we can be sensitive to those like the ones that alexandra has written about. I ask you, what harm could be done by us looking at the causes of the Holocaust? Could that Beacon of Light not shine brighter with more knowlege about others here?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 20:06:57
In reply to Trying to rephrase in a more civil manner » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 19:43:16
Friends,
It is written here,[..it cheapens the real suffering of people in the Holocaust...].
I am requesting that when you read that that you consider that:
A. I feel that the knowlege of the causes of the Holocaust could raise the value of the suffereings of those mentioned. B. I feel that there are lessons for all in knowing the causes of the Holocaust. C. I feel that if one knows the causes, that they could be better able to be more sensitive to humanity in general, and to others here also, and perhaps see how current world events might parallel those of Hitler's ideology. Do we want that to happen again? If not, how better is there to prevent another Holocaust than to be aware of its causes?
Lou
Posted by gabbii on July 14, 2005, at 20:07:31
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to gg- » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on July 14, 2005, at 17:11:04
> >...then IMO, I feel defamed here. That may not be a definition of legal defamation in some jurisdictions, but that is how I feel.
> > Lou
>
> I believe you, Lou. And I'm sad for you. I wish you felt free to feel more at ease here. But I do understand being vigilant in guarding against that which hurts you.
>
> (((Lou)))
>
> ggThat'was a beautiful post GG and I feel that way too.
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 20:14:52
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect ofthis thread-kwcauses » Racer, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 20:06:57
IT is not a question of studying about Holocaust that offends people. It is the comparision of holocaust with what is happening at babble that offends. If you want to study holocaust, it would perhaps be a better idea to start a thread in social about it and people interested in looking at it and learning from it would participate? And you can also post another thread about rights of free speach and other people protesting it and how that leads in the end to things like holocaust without referecing what happened with Dr. Bob and you and comparing things like that to being leading towards things like holocaust.
> I am requesting that when you read that that you consider that:
> A. I feel that the knowlege of the causes of the Holocaust could raise the value of the suffereings of those mentioned. B. I feel that there are lessons for all in knowing the causes of the Holocaust. C. I feel that if one knows the causes, that they could be better able to be more sensitive to humanity in general, and to others here also, and perhaps see how current world events might parallel those of Hitler's ideology. Do we want that to happen again? If not, how better is there to prevent another Holocaust than to be aware of its causes?
> Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 20:28:01
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect ofthis thread-kwcauses » Lou Pilder, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2005, at 20:14:52
Friends,
It is written here,[...it is comparing the Holocaust with what is happening at babble...].
I am requesting that when you read that that you consider the following:
A. It is not my intention to compare what is happening in this forum with the Nazi Holocaust.
B. I am requesting that people here do a study on {the causes of the Nazi Holocaust} if they are going to post to this thread.It is a request only.
C. I feel that that study could be good for the community as a whole.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:34:06
In reply to I am sorry » Dinah, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 18:25:09
Posted by gardenergirl on July 14, 2005, at 21:07:04
In reply to Lou's thanks to gardenergirl-shfloftobuf » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 19:39:53
I'm glad my post spoke to you, Lou. Thanks for saying that.
:)gg
Posted by gardenergirl on July 14, 2005, at 21:08:04
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to gg-, posted by gabbii on July 14, 2005, at 20:07:31
Posted by thuso on July 14, 2005, at 21:25:39
In reply to Lou's response toan aspect ofthis thread-bablholo? » pinkeye, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 20:28:01
>A. It is not my intention to compare what is happening in this forum with the Nazi Holocaust.In my opinion it sounds like you are making a comparison. If we’re misinterpreting you, wouldn’t it be better to change your example to something less offensive to people?
>B. I am requesting that people here do a study on {the causes of the Nazi Holocaust} if they are going to post to this thread. It is a request only.
I’ve done plenty of studying on the Holocaust. I majored in Religious Studies with a focus in Judaic Studies in college. In fact, I’ve worked in the Holocaust Museum and have family that still do. I’ve spent time cleaning by hand some of the actual belongings of those who where in the Holocaust, including some of the uniforms. I come from a Jewish family from Eastern Europe. My grandpa who fought in WWII was one of the first to enter the concentration camps and found orders directly from Hitler and signed by him. I was told never to bring up his experience with the Holocaust, but didn’t want to let him die before putting his experience down on paper. He had refused to talk about it for 50 years until I gently asked him to. So does that allow me to post to this thread in response to you? Do I have enough knowledge of the Holocaust?
>C. I feel that that study could be good for the community as a whole.
Yes, study of the Holocaust is good, but when people have specifically told you that the context you are using the Holocaust in is offensive to them…do you think that is good?
Your constant discussion of the Holocaust in relation to this one post by Dr. Bob is offensive to me on many levels. I request (along with the others) that you please stop using the Holocaust as your example. Can you please take into consideration our feelings about this issue? I’m sure there is another example you can use in order to get your point across. Will you please use that instead of bringing up the Holocaust again?
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 21:54:48
In reply to Re: Lou's response toan aspect ofthis thread-bablh » Lou Pilder, posted by thuso on July 14, 2005, at 21:25:39
thuso,
You wrote,[...if we are misinterpreting you, wouldn't it be better to change your example...].
I can accept that.
Lou
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 22:45:17
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect ofthis thread-kwcauses » Racer, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 20:06:57
> Friends,
> It is written here,[..it cheapens the real suffering of people in the Holocaust...].
> I am requesting that when you read that that you consider that:
> A. I feel that the knowlege of the causes of the Holocaust could raise the value of the suffereings of those mentioned. B. I feel that there are lessons for all in knowing the causes of the Holocaust. C. I feel that if one knows the causes, that they could be better able to be more sensitive to humanity in general, and to others here also, and perhaps see how current world events might parallel those of Hitler's ideology. Do we want that to happen again? If not, how better is there to prevent another Holocaust than to be aware of its causes?
> LouFor what it's worth, I don't think that anything I wrote is about whether or not historical knowledge of the factors and events leading up to the Holocaust is a good thing or a bad thing. I wrote that I, personally, felt offended when I read your posts, which I interpreted as comparing Dr Bob's comments with the events leading up to the Holocaust.
Also, Lou, I don't think you're talking about understanding the causes of the Holocaust, so much as the effects those causes had on events. The actual causes of the Holocaust go back to the Dark Ages in Eastern Europe, and have many, many threads which all came together in the 1930s to create one of the worst horrors in modern history.
Also, for the record, I was very uncomfortable when I read this post of yours, which doesn't read to me like a response to what I wrote. I'm uncomfortable first with what feels like an assumption that I do not know about the Holocaust. I also react badly when anyone tells me what I "should" know about, what I "should" study -- it smacks of all the things I was told for years were "for my own good", etc. I do not believe that it is anyone's place to tell me what I should know, unless I have asked that person for his or her opinion. That's not just you, Lou, that's anyone. Yes, when I went to my college advisor, I asked for his opinion about what I "should" take. That was appropriate. But when someone at a cocktail party tells me that I really "should" study, say, entomology, I become more than a little edgy.
As for whether or not knowing the history of Eastern and Central Europe would make this place "better", more tolerant, more civil, well, that's rather a moot point, really. If everyone here at Babble followed the civility guidelines, thought for a moment about how others might interpret what they've written, thought of how they would feel themselves to read what they've written about others -- in short, if everyone here followed The Golden Rule, THAT would make things a lot more comfortable.
Finally, I notice that when I finally brought up teh fact that references to the Holocaust upset me, a number of other people came forward, too, to say that they became upset by those references as well. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I will say that I would feel a little better about this whole thing if I felt as though you had taken that in, if you expressed some sort of regret for the fact that your words had caused someone else pain. Can you understand that?
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 23:30:48
In reply to No. » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 22:45:17
Friends,
It is writtem here,[...to tell me what I should know...].
I am requesting that if anyone here thinks that the poster of the statement in question here is saying that {I} wrote here that any others "should", could you let me know by babblemail, or post a URL here if there is one where I write that one {should}??
I do not think that I wrote that anyone "should" do anything. I remember that I wrote a {request} which I feel is different from telling anyone that they {should}.
Lou
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 23:40:33
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-shd?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 14, 2005, at 23:30:48
> Friends,
> It is writtem here,[...to tell me what I should know...].
> I am requesting that if anyone here thinks that the poster of the statement in question here is saying that {I} wrote here that any others "should", could you let me know by babblemail, or post a URL here if there is one where I write that one {should}??
> I do not think that I wrote that anyone "should" do anything. I remember that I wrote a {request} which I feel is different from telling anyone that they {should}.
> LouYou didn't use the word, Lou.
I give up. You've posted what you call an apology below, but I still haven't seen you say that you are sorry, that you have any regret about anything you've written or any pain you've caused others, I still haven't read anything that implies that you even took in the idea that other people have experienced great pain because they read your words. Everything that I've seen you write sounds to me as though you're justifying what you've written.
Fine. I feel as though I've wasted my time trying to communicate with you, because communication is a two way street, and this has felt more like a one way street. The only result of these exchanges is frustration, anger, and pain. I will learn from this, and I will no longer make this sort of effort.
I will, in short, take Dr Bob's advice not to read in the first place those posts that I believe may upset me.
Posted by SLS on July 15, 2005, at 6:05:07
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-shd » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 23:40:33
Racer,
Don't ever say that you give up, regardless of the context or issues being discussed. It doesn't resonate well with your character. You never give up!
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2005, at 1:03:10
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-shd » Lou Pilder, posted by Racer on July 14, 2005, at 23:40:33
> I still haven't seen you say that you are sorry, that you have any regret about anything you've written or any pain you've caused others, I still haven't read anything that implies that you even took in the idea that other people have experienced great pain because they read your words.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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