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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 42. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 22:56:55
I know this was mentioned by Dr. Bob a while back, and I was thinking about it.
A lot of people have been saying that the job of moderating has gotten too big for Dr. Bob alone, and perhaps Dr. Bob thinks so too. He hasn't really given his opinion (or his family's - equally important I suppose).
But if that's true, perhaps it's time to think again about at least a small fee for Babble. Perhaps Dr. Bob could use the revenue to employ impartial assistant moderators. Or perhaps it would reduce the administrative burden somewhat. It should at least make it easier to determine when people are trying to get around blocks, and make it costly for people to be mischievous on the site.
The downside, of course, would be the loss of privacy. I can't think of any method of transferring funds that doesn't give away some privacy. I wouldn't mind paying now because I trust Dr. Bob, but when I first came to Babble, I would never ever have done that. Gosh, when I made the donation, I sent it by money order under my posting name.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Have there been studies done about how many posters you'd lose if you go to a fee based system? Are there ways of paying that wouldn't sacrifice anonymity?
How many people would be willing to pay to Babble? How much?
Dr. Bob, are you still thinking about this? If so, do you have any ideas about what you'd charge or how you'd collect?
Posted by Slinky on January 21, 2004, at 23:25:05
In reply to Fees and Babble, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 22:56:55
Maybe pay every 6 months ?
Don't know how much.(I'm beggining to think that it's a pink and white ballroom dress--the pic)
Excuse the tangent
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 23:27:10
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble, posted by Slinky on January 21, 2004, at 23:25:05
(I thought it might be a row of shirts, and the photo taken in his closet)
Posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 2:09:29
In reply to Fees and Babble, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 22:56:55
Ouch, if a fee is requested, I will have to leave. I can barely afford therapy...
Elle
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 22, 2004, at 5:47:03
In reply to Fees and Babble, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 22:56:55
Maybe if it were $20 a year I would still be iinterested.. privacy isn't a concern as I shop enough online, and pay to use another site (that coulod be more embarrassing to be found out in some situations that this place!)
But then, I'm in UK and the exchange rate is very strongly in my favour at the moment ;)
Maybe, have areas for "non-payers" and then extra bits for the members.. other sites I use have a basic service for non-members, and then extras for the members (private msg rooms, ability to set up your own rooms and boards etc)
I dunno.. I do understand what a burden this place must be, financially and time wise.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 7:35:38
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 2:09:29
I seriously doubt it would be a large fee, Elle. More along the lines of what Nikki suggested.
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 7:40:29
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 2:09:29
I didn't mean to make light of $20, Elle, and I'm sorry I answered hastily. There are certainly times that I'd have to borrow the $20, and I'm lucky to have people I could borrow it from.
I know that money is tight for a lot of us. People are in school, people are underemployed (me!) or unemployed.
It would be nice if there was some way to take that into account so that no one would have to leave Babble for financial reasons....
Posted by badhaircut on January 22, 2004, at 9:12:23
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 7:35:38
There's a big thread from 2 years ago at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20001124/msgs/619.html, including:
research by Lorraine (an MBA) on site funding issues http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20001124/msgs/707.html
why U of C can't pay for it: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20001124/msgs/712.html
credit card privacy concerns: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20010315/msgs/951.html
grantwriting, "tasteful" ads, and $275/mo cost in 2001: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20001124/msgs/677.html
This link should be highlighted on every page! http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html
-bhc
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 9:17:57
In reply to ads and fees archive link, posted by badhaircut on January 22, 2004, at 9:12:23
Here's the first one I can see:
Posted by badhaircut on January 22, 2004, at 9:57:21
In reply to Re: ads and fees archive link » badhaircut, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 9:17:57
Thanks for the link.
I was flat-out opposed to any fee until reading those old threads. There was even opposition way back when to registration, and registration now seems so minimal and natural.
I now think maybe a small fee for posting (not reading) *may* be okay. But this 2000 post by medlib was interesting:
> I believe that charging for posting would kill Babble in short order. People willing to pay to post become, in effect, vanity publishers--a uniquely boring group of people.
I have no idea if that's true. But it might be a trade-off that has to be made to keep the site going long-term and to reduce the domino-effect damage of hostile or provocative postings (eg, provocative rant -> reasonable response containing a technical violation -> draconian block -> valuable source quits the board).
I think Dr Bob's co-op idea is awesome:
> What if *everyone* received something? A share of what was generated overall, depending on how much they each chipped in? Minus a percentage or something for me? I kind of like that idea...
But talk about administrative headaches! (SEC, FCC, FTA, IRS....) So I think that's out.
But I'd go $5 bucks as an annual posting fee. Does anyone know how much that'd net after bank fees?
-bhc
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 22, 2004, at 10:14:31
In reply to I'd go $5/yr » Dinah, posted by badhaircut on January 22, 2004, at 9:57:21
Thanx for your hard work on this. Even at T1 or DSL speeds it would take time, effort, and clarity of purpose.
(and thank [other] for me) I especially appreciate a previous post by [other] in which Dr Bob discussed what his mission statement was at that time. Great history study. Thanx...
I now feel more comfortable about my notion that this site is so much "more" than a chat room. Think of of what other chat rooms you might have visited. Czek your feelings about them and notice the contrast.
I'm joyful I am still welcome here.
Posted by shar on January 22, 2004, at 16:12:18
In reply to Fees and Babble, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 22:56:55
Posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 16:21:03
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 7:40:29
It's not just the money. Once I have to give my credit card number out, I don't have my anonymity anymore. I wouldn't be able to post here anymore because that would make me too uncomfortable. I think Babble would lose a lot of people if fees were inacted. But, I guess whatever has to happen, will.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 21:38:24
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 16:21:03
Believe me, I understand. I'm the queen of paranioa. Like I said, I sent in my donation with a money order under my posting name. And then Dr. Bob kindly sent an acknowledgement (for both donations) to my office address which I had foolishly put on the envelope (this was back in the days when an envelope with no return address would likely cause a panic at the post office). So my office got *two* lovely letters acknowledging the donation addressed to Dinah (and they didn't know any Dinahs). Sigh. Fortunately my best friend (now deceased) worked there, and by the second letter had figured out that it was probably me, so she gave it to me. Fortunately I trusted her implicitly. But it gave me a major panic attack, I can tell you. Other than my therapist and my husband, no one knows about my Babble involvement. Of course, I'm not sure if there's anyone else I would mind knowing about my Babble involvement, but still I understand privacy concerns well.
Ok. I'll admit that it even scares me to click to a book to Amazon to buy it through Babble links.
And I can definitely see the problem when there is a joint credit card for married people. My husband knows all about Babble, and has promised not to peek, but not everyone is married to my husband.
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 22:01:16
In reply to I'd rather have fewer boards and no fee. (nm), posted by shar on January 22, 2004, at 16:12:18
I'm too darn lazy to click on all of them. I might be interested in the books discussions, but I rarely go over to that board and see if there are any new posts. And since it turns over so slowly, my posts don't stay purple (showing I've read them). So it's hard to find new posts sometimes. Same with Grief. I wonder if they couldn't both be incorporated back into Social. We talk about movies and things on Social, why not books? And we give and receive support on Social, is a separate Grief board necessary?
I get confused sometimes between Health, Alternative, and the medication board. But that might just be my ignorance of the topics at hand.
And Faith generates more blocks per post by far than any other board. It might be doing all the poor posters who will probably be blocked for trying to balance their faith and the civility rules a favor to close that board. At least on a trial basis. I feel so sorry for the poor Faith Board posters trying to feel their way...
But I doubt that would solve Dr. Bob's time crunch. It's the number of posts that is probably problematic, not the number of boards.
Posted by shar on January 22, 2004, at 22:37:55
In reply to Re: I wouldn't mind fewer boards... » shar, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 22:01:16
>It's the number of posts that is probably problematic, not the number of boards.
Wouldn't paring down the number of boards automatically pare down the number of posts? Or am I missing something?
Shar
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 22:44:03
In reply to Re: I wouldn't mind fewer boards... » Dinah, posted by shar on January 22, 2004, at 22:37:55
Only if the posts weren't posted elsewhere. If the Alternative Board were done away with, and people didn't post about alternative medicine, then there would be fewer posts. But if it was again combined with the medication board, and people continued to post about it, there would be the same number of total posts, just on fewer boards and more to a board.
It might depend on the board.
I guess it's possible that as a board gets more Yahoo hits on a topic, it might attract more posters on that topic, and therefore total posts would go up.
But maybe Dr. Bob has better statistics on that?
Posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 23, 2004, at 1:54:19
In reply to Re: I wouldn't mind fewer boards... » shar, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 22:01:16
/BEGIN rant.exe
I personally disagree with making Babble a pay site. I don't know everything about this site and I don't presume to. In my opinion the issue of paying would change the dynamic of the community and not for the better. It woud not be consistent with the original intent of Babble, IMO.
I envision several issues. One being the exclusionary factor. Several people who could benefit from or be a benefit to the site would be turned away by a billing page. Some may not have bank accounts. Others may not have financial resources available to pay; for instance, people on a fixed income. The majority simply may not be willing to pay for lack of guaranteed answers, or on the basis of privacy.
Also, the feeling of entitlement that come with paying for something (warranties and disclaimers aside) could become a problem. If somebody is PCB'd, blocked or not feeling supported, one could fill an administrators Email box pretty quickly. There would also be the additional burden of tracking the money. This could lead to more time and energy to administrating the site, not to mention the possible need for additional software, staff and equipment.
These opinions are extreme, however I feel that these hypothetical tangents merit exploration.
Speaking for myself, I would not be able to continue due to lack of resources. I see posting here as a priviledge and try to conduct myself accordingly. My opinions could be way off base on this topic but I need to assert my feelings.
Everyone here is wonderfully supportive and I greatly appreciate Dr. Bob's facilitation of this community.
One thing I can think of is maybe advertising for donations more prominently. Maybe using pay-per-click ads on the site and/or an affiliate program like Amazon would help.
Thanks for letting me go on. And on. /END rant.exe
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 23, 2004, at 8:43:28
In reply to Re: Fees and Babble » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 22, 2004, at 16:21:03
> Once I have to give my credit card number out, I don't have my anonymity anymore. I wouldn't be able to post here anymore because that would make me too uncomfortable.
If it would make you uncomfortable for me to know who you were, that definitely would be an issue, but it would just be me...
Bob
Posted by badhaircut on January 23, 2004, at 9:29:03
In reply to Re: anonymity, posted by Dr. Bob on January 23, 2004, at 8:43:28
> If it would make you uncomfortable for me to know who you were, that definitely would be an issue, but it would just be me...
But would it? I mean, as PB continues to grow, at some point you'll *have* to have some assistants (who in my imagination would be U of C undergrads), and over years there will have to be successor if you burn out, become ill (God forbid), or make a career change. Those are likely possibilities.
Then there's Visa & the banks & their employees. And a paper trail theoretically open to the subpoenas of divorce lawyers, lawsuit defendants (and plaintiffs), overzealous law enforcement, etc. Those are unlikely possibilities, but they're also perfectly real. I don't think you can maintain that the ID disclosure would just be to you.
I'm *now* okay with having my PB anonymity slightly compromised by a fee, if it's necessary. Even if my bank or UC students could in theory ever tag the "real" me. But I don't know if I would have gotten involved here at first if I thought my posts could ever be connected to me. I guess I'm sympathetic with all sides on this.
-bhc
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 23, 2004, at 9:37:59
In reply to non just Bob » Dr. Bob, posted by badhaircut on January 23, 2004, at 9:29:03
I know I recently made a payment to someone via paypal, and they didn't find out my name, and I didn't find out theirs either.
Just the name they registered under, which was nothing like their real name (ala email address)
Paypal obviously know who I am though!!
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 10:21:35
In reply to Paying for Babble, posted by socialdeviantjeff on January 23, 2004, at 1:54:19
It wouldn't be all that unusual. Bookgurl was mentioning that Weightwatchers charge $10 a meeting. The basket was passed to defray costs at the Debtors Anonymous group meeting and the other self help group I went to, and it's passed at my Sunday School class (proceeds going to supplement church activities) as well. Of course, those are voluntary, but it doesn't feel all that voluntary when the basket is passed around in public. The fact is that this site costs money to run, and Dr. Bob is donating his time. If we all get benefit from the site, it doesn't seem unreasonable to contribute to the basket through a fee.
I know there are free groups all over the internet, but you pay for them with popups, etc. And I know from the Yahoo groups I belong to that Yahoo is really cutting down on the space provided to the free groups and has now stopped attachments. I imagine that, like Picturetrail, the idea is to force the larger groups to pay for the service.
Privacy is certainly a concern, but I do think that paying for Babble isn't an unreasonable idea. I would miss all the people who wouldn't post here because of it, of course.
Posted by badhaircut on January 23, 2004, at 10:34:54
In reply to Re: Paying for Babble, posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 10:21:35
> The fact is that this site costs money to run, and Dr. Bob is donating his time.
It's my impression that Dr. Bob is also donating his money. It'd be thousands, over the years.
-bhc
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 23, 2004, at 11:48:49
In reply to Paypal??, posted by NikkiT2 on January 23, 2004, at 9:37:59
I did some czekking and found that clickbank is now merged with PayPal. Remember, clickbank creates an [Identity Firewall].
PayPal/Clickbank is an affilliate program where DrBob could charge $10, clickbank keeps $1.50, the affilliate (another "T") gets a check for whatever DrBob says they should get, like $3.50, and DrBob gets the rest, say the $5 BHC proposed, (it could be more if the "T" share is less).
It starts making sense when you see the board get cleaned up and the raw number of post-ers goes from a couple hundred to a thousand.
So who donated $5,000 to Babble? Oh, no one yet?
The high points: safe profitable way to broaden Babble's base, adding purpose to the "T" links.
$10.00 that DrBob wants for Babble
$ 1.50 that PayPal\Clickbank keeps
$ 3.50 that "T" gets
---------------------------------------
$ 5.00 Babble getsnote: absolute identity firewall = free!
What if we recommend someone? DrBob could extend our posting period or offer us another board to post to, etc. etc. Then Babble gets $8.50!!!
What if PayPal/Clickbank needs $2.50 minimum per Xaction? Let's cross that bridge when it comes up. I really didn't see that in their presentation. But that's just how my mind works.
Rod
Posted by gardenergirl on January 23, 2004, at 12:01:07
In reply to Re: Paying for Babble, posted by badhaircut on January 23, 2004, at 10:34:54
Following Dinah's analogy of passing the basket...The PB basket is more or less invisible. Perhaps if we were gently reminded with each post, (the confirmation page?) that donations are welcome, blah blah blah, then more would donate??? It would be a reminder that might feel more public than a link at the bottom of the page. I know I never even see that link.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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