![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:05:49
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303427.html, posted by rosmarin on January 20, 2004, at 18:12:11
> To switch from family dynamics to Jung! I saw some posts recently
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/282737.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/301926.html> about the site's shadow, along the lines that the site's shadow consisted of profanity, name-calling, joking about death and so on. But these things are suppressed quite successfully, and isn't the shadow as much about about things which are acted out but not acknowledged? The shadow of this site also consists of envy, rage and cruelty which are not acknowledged and are acted out in a civil manner.
I'm hardly an expert on Jungian concepts, but I agree, feelings of envy and rage (cruelty I don't think of as a feeling) are sometimes acted out as opposed to acknowledged as such. I think envy is discussed much less than anger.*
And of course this may also apply to other feelings...
Bob
* Yes, 164 vs. 2520 matches using Google Search. :-)
Posted by shar on January 21, 2004, at 11:56:10
In reply to site's shadow, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:05:49
Because I'm mostly ignorant about Jung's concept of shadow, I thought I'd just put this primer in here, and it might be easier for people to then talk about the site's shadow, which I think is a very interesting topic.
I cited the web site I got this from, and I just took sections, so interested parties may want to look at the whole thing.
Shar--The Shadow
The Shadow, is a psychological term introduced by the late Swiss psychiatrist, Dr. Carl G. Jung. It is everything in us that is unconscious, repressed, undeveloped and denied. These are dark rejected aspects of our being as well as light, so there is positive undeveloped potential in the Shadow that we don’t know about because anything that is unconscious, we don’t know about.The Shadow is an archetype. And what an archetype simply means is that it is typical in consciousness for everyone. Everyone has a Shadow. This is not something that one or two people have. We all have a Shadow and a confrontation with the Shadow is essential for self awareness. We cannot learn about ourselves if we do not learn about our Shadow so therefore we are going to attract it through the mirrors of other people.
--So What Does This Look Like in Real Life?
We have all had experiences with other people that really irritate us. Whenever we feel ourselves over-reacting emotionally to a quality or characteristic in someone else that pushes all of our buttons (and there will be a repulsive element to it), we can be sure that we are seeing a part of our own Shadow.We will not be able to stand this other person or be around them at all. The reaction is usually extreme distaste as these characteristics or qualities that we despise or hate in others are our own and they are usually operating outside of our awareness. They are in our unconscious and usually they will be the exact opposite of what we believe to be true about ourselves.
Now a person carrying a light part of our Shadow we will be very drawn to, and may even fall in love with, and this is the ‘Gold’ part of our Shadow. So we can also project some of our very positive qualities when we meet someone we truly admire, but most of us have more trouble with the negative experiences as we encounter our Shadow. This is the psyche’s way of bringing itself into the light meaning the light of consciousness.
--Projection and Denial
Projection is an unconscious psychological mechanism. We all project onto other people parts of ourselves that we disown, that we deny. We will usually not identify with the projected quality or characteristic at all. It’s them. It’s not us.We will feel highly uncomfortable when we are around someone that is carrying a part of our Shadow. As I said before, and it bears repeating, there will often be a repulsive element to it. We will be repulsed by that person and whatever they stand for. It will feel like whoever they are is totally against our principles, moral values and ideals and we will be highly critical of their actions or way of being in the world.
So notice. Notice who comes into your life that irritates you or pushes your buttons. It’s usually something that is so unconscious within yourself, that it’s impossible to see that it’s about yourself. If it indeed is a part of your own Shadow, in time you are going to see how it’s going to start repeating in patterns.
Whatever we deem too negative to express, whatever goes against our highest ideals will be conveniently projected out into the world. Our energy is like a magnet and the unconscious is profound. It will draw to itself, itself over and over again. And generally the person receiving the projection is what analysts call ‘a good hook’ for the projection. They will be acting out that quality or characteristic themselves and usually they will be doing it to an extreme so it is easy to see that it is them doing it. But as the 12-steppers say, “if you spot it, you got it.”
--Too Good to be True
We’ve all met people who seem too sticky and gooey. They are “too nice” and sickeningly sweet. We sense that they are somehow being fake when we are around them and we feel we never really know them. They are, as the saying goes, “too good to be true.” These people are barricaded behind their mask or persona. They will deliberately avoid any kind of negative reaction or emotion. They refuse to be real and suffer the acceptance of their own dark side and this can be a dangerous thing. We are better off knowing about our dark side because as Jung put it “Whatever one does not live, lives against one.”--Slips of the Tongue
How many times have you said something and then said, “I didn’t mean it that way.” Well we did mean it that way and our Shadow decided to have it’s say. The Shadow side of us relates to life much more authentically and it will come out whether we like it or not.Repressing or denying our Shadow can lead us into experiences where we are overwhelmed by it and it can take us over. Then we can end up with egg on our face, acting in the very way we have denied or condemned in others and saying to ourselves, “Why did I act like that? I am not like that.” Well when we say it like that — “I’m not like that,” — we are like that, we just don’t know it.
There are many hidden and undeveloped parts in all of us and in attempting to keep our self-image intact, we will completely deny their existence. We do this because we want to be accepted by our society, by our families and our peers. Our baser qualities — our hypocritical behavior, our excessive greed, our ruthlessness, our ability to be manipulative — go straight into the unconscious. But that doesn’t mean they are not active in our life, they just live in the unconscious (unsupervised), and periodically they burst forth into our awareness and propel us into situations that we would much rather avoid.
"Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is
embodied in the individual’s conscious life,
the blacker and denser it is.
At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag,
thwarting our most well-meant intentions."
— Dr. Carl G. Jung
Posted by rosmarin on January 21, 2004, at 14:56:49
In reply to site's shadow, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:05:49
I don't think of cruelty as a feeling, but it's my understanding that unacknowledged behaviours as well as feelings and character traits are all part of Jung's shadow.I do think it is possible to be civil and cruel at the same time - I'm thinking for example of schoolgirls who commit suicide because of skillful bullying by peers which is nevertheless polite.
Who knows why we humans are cruel - maybe we are projecting pain to avoid feeling it, are being predatory, fear difference or wish to punish others for failing to conform to a group norm?
To the extent that such things as envy, or rage, or shame, or unacknowledged desires to control or hurt others might be part of the shadow of this site, the site is only a reflection of lots of other civilised institutions!
Maybe these things can never be stopped, but awareness and trying to bring them out of the shadow might do some good.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2004, at 10:22:32
In reply to Re: site's shadow » Dr. Bob, posted by rosmarin on January 21, 2004, at 14:56:49
> I don't think of cruelty as a feeling, but it's my understanding that unacknowledged behaviours as well as feelings and character traits are all part of Jung's shadow.
OK, I can see traits or qualities...
> I do think it is possible to be civil and cruel at the same time - I'm thinking for example of schoolgirls who commit suicide because of skillful bullying by peers which is nevertheless polite.
Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I'm not sure I'd consider skillful bullying to be civil. But it may be a type of incivility that's difficult to address...
> Maybe these things can never be stopped, but awareness and trying to bring them out of the shadow might do some good.
I agree, awareness would be good. But I do worry a little about accusations...
Bob
Posted by lil' jimi on January 23, 2004, at 2:14:27
In reply to Re: site's shadow, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2004, at 10:22:32
...
...
... "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"
Posted by Racer on January 23, 2004, at 11:53:56
In reply to Re: site's shadow, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2004, at 10:22:32
>
> > Maybe these things can never be stopped, but awareness and trying to bring them out of the shadow might do some good.
>
> I agree, awareness would be good. But I do worry a little about accusations...
>
> BobAwareness would be good, but in the context of an anonymous public forum, I think it could be quite dangerous to a lot of the same people who can benefit most from this site. Accusations, of any sort, can resonate within the individual's pathology and create very real damage. Suffering real damage from interaction on a virtual forum seems contrary to the foundational purpose of these boards.
Mind you, I pretty well stick to the 2000 board, so I probably don't deserve a vote on this.
On the other hand, I had an experience on another, totally unrelated board that hurt me pretty badly at a very vulnerable time. I'll tell you about it as an example of the sort of real world damage I'm talking about. Way back, remember when? I was in the depths of a very, very serious depression, and without health insurance. My only resource was the county MH clinic, where the pdoc handed me a sample pack of Serzone and said to take it. I asked what sort of drug it was. She told me, "It's an anti-depressant. Just take it." Online, the side effects worried me a very, very great deal, especially since one of the top SEs listed was hypotension, often a serious problem for me. I posted on the other board that this was a concern, did anyone know anything about it? (This is when I found out about boards like Babble, so I posted the same question on several.) The first response I got was "Stop whining and just take the drugs, you weenie" -- devastating. Now my deepest fears were set loose, that I wasn't depressed, I was so totally worthless I couldn't even do what I was supposed to do to get better, when it was as easy as taking a pill. Whoever wrote that probably didn't care that another individual somewhere was suffering much more than that deserved, it was probably just a hurtful comment made at a bad time, or because of his own pathology. Whatever it was, it wouldn't have been possible face to face for most people.
That's one reason moderation -- in both senses -- is so important in the context of a forum of this nature. Dr Bob provides one sense of the moderation, serving as an authority figure who can impose consequences for unacceptable behavior. Personally, I think consequences are a good thing, but then I'm middle aged. Many of the long time posters to these boards provide the other sense of the word, by reminding newcomers and each other that sometimes we need to consider the greater good, to think of restraint as a form of enlightened self-interest. Also a good thing.
Maybe the Shadow on this site is a valid learning tool for many of us, but maybe this isn't the best possible context for learning from Shadows?
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2004, at 14:35:19
In reply to Re: site's shadow (got long) » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on January 23, 2004, at 11:53:56
> Maybe the Shadow on this site is a valid learning tool for many of us, but maybe this isn't the best possible context for learning from Shadows?
Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that more incivility be allowed for the sake of learning. But there may some way to learn more from what does happen...
Bob
Posted by Racer on January 24, 2004, at 17:04:39
In reply to Re: learning from Shadows, posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2004, at 14:35:19
> > Maybe the Shadow on this site is a valid learning tool for many of us, but maybe this isn't the best possible context for learning from Shadows?
>
> Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that more incivility be allowed for the sake of learning. But there may some way to learn more from what does happen...
>
> BobNaw, I never thought you were advocating more tolerance for incivility on your boards. I was just offering more babbling on the subject.
What would different ways of learning from the interactions on these boards look like to you? Maybe an analysis of interactions and where the break through of incivility begins? That would require a lot of time and a lot of attention, which would probably require a number of contributors to accomplish. Maybe something similar to Rounds, a thread which warrants a PBC is presented, with comments analysing the escalating steps or offering suggestions for alternative along each of those steps?
That's only the first idea that came into my head on reading some of this thread over. It's not a suggestion along the lines of "Oh, let's do this, this way." I am curious, though, about what sorts of ideas you can come up with of how Shadow Learning might look.
(Just as an aside, I'm not thinking clearly these days, and am quite sensitive to the fact that my ability to communicate is -- well, shall we say "Not Good". All of this is meant, sincerely, to engage with you in a question which interests me. I do not mean to confront you in any way, nor to imply anything beyond what I try to make explicit. I'm sorry if my lack of ability in communicating in writing makes it seem as if I'm attacking rather than engaging. That's part of what makes the process of online dialogue so difficult, of course, but I hope you don't take any of my babbling as any sort of criticism of you.)
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2004, at 1:37:10
In reply to Re: learning from Shadows » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on January 24, 2004, at 17:04:39
> What would different ways of learning from the interactions on these boards look like to you? Maybe an analysis of interactions and where the break through of incivility begins? That would require a lot of time and a lot of attention, which would probably require a number of contributors to accomplish. Maybe something similar to Rounds, a thread which warrants a PBC is presented, with comments analysing the escalating steps or offering suggestions for alternative along each of those steps?
That sounds good to me, analysis and suggestions of alternatives... It would be great if the posters involved in the original thread were involved here, too, but even if not, it might be interesting...
Bob
Posted by Racer on January 26, 2004, at 19:44:18
In reply to Re: learning from Shadows, posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2004, at 1:37:10
> > What would different ways of learning from the interactions on these boards look like to you? Maybe something similar to Rounds, a thread which warrants a PBC is presented, with comments analysing the escalating steps or offering suggestions for alternative along each of those steps?
>
> That sounds good to me, analysis and suggestions of alternatives... It would be great if the posters involved in the original thread were involved here, too, but even if not, it might be interesting...
>
> BobGood idea, having the original posters involved.
It occurred to me today that I, at least, do a lot of things in reaction to situations, without realizing at the time that I'm behaving in a reactionary manner. Only later, after the reaction, do I realize that I had alternatives which might have been healthier. Something like a PBC Rounds might give me insights into some of that, or at least teach me to recognise it more easily at the time of an event, rather than later. In other words, PRACTICE. (That's how you get to Carnagie Hall, you know.)
If you start something like that here, I'll support it with my presence -- if that's helpful -- and I'll think well of you. If I could, I'd offer financial support, but as you probably know, that's not possible at this time.
Thanks for providing this place.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 27, 2004, at 1:13:01
In reply to Re: learning from Shadows » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on January 26, 2004, at 19:44:18
> It occurred to me today that I, at least, do a lot of things in reaction to situations, without realizing at the time that I'm behaving in a reactionary manner. Only later, after the reaction, do I realize that I had alternatives which might have been healthier...
>
> If you start something like that here, I'll support it with my presence -- if that's helpfulOf course it would be helpful! Now we just need some thirsty horses...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2004, at 23:26:43
In reply to site's shadow, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2004, at 2:05:49
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/304036.html, posted by rosmarin on January 22, 2004, at 5:05:57
> Is the fear that Dr Bob will stop financing and taking responsibility for this site part of its shadow? If so, is there a danger that this unexpressed fear could breed an infantile sense of dependence on Dr Bob on the part of people who benefit from access to this community? Would this be healthy for Dr Bob and for the members of this community?
What do you mean by "infantile" dependence? Put that way, it doesn't sound very healthy...
> If any member of the community were to become concerned about this happening, how would they articulate their concern in a way which was civil?
How about: "I'm concerned that fear that Dr. Bob will stop financing and taking responsibility for this site could breed a sense of dependence on Dr. Bob"?
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.