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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by madwand on October 26, 2003, at 11:18:31
Dr Bob (and the board in general),
Since there appears to be some hard feelings and confusion regarding when people get to come back and under what circumstances, what about this: A blanket amnesty under which all current blocks come to an end *and* everyone's "counter" gets set back to zero. I.e., a fresh start for everyone, and hopefully an invitation to those who pull blocks "frequently" to re-examine their posting style a bit.
Of course if the rules were going to be changed (e.g. "minor" vs "major" as has been discussed periodically) this would be a good time to roll out that change.
Hope everyone is having a wonderful weekend!Michael
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 26, 2003, at 13:07:51
In reply to A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob, posted by madwand on October 26, 2003, at 11:18:31
Posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 16:59:57
In reply to Hear Hear (nm) » madwand, posted by NikkiT2 on October 26, 2003, at 13:07:51
That would help solve the multiple poster problem as well as giving everyone a fresh start. You would probably lose a lot of posters at first (including me) but I don't think that has to be a bad thing. Give out some free trials or something. I think it's pretty apparent to everyone by now that you can't really control who posts on here and it's starting to feel kind of creepy. If you ban me for saying creepy there's really no way for you or anyone else to know that I haven't already registered a raft of other names in preparation for such a time. One wonders if others haven't also. And without posting any details you don't have to be computer savvy to find your way back in if you want to. I wish it wasn't so. I found a sense of security in thinking bans were real even if I didn't agree with them.
A blanket amnesty will just restart all your same problems again with no new tools for dealing with them.
Posted by madwand on October 26, 2003, at 17:31:20
In reply to Ban Everyone,Return by Credit Card Only, posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 16:59:57
Hello Brio,
Nice to finally "meet" you (fascinating screen name -- have you seen the "name" thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031011/msgs/269388.html)
I agree that making the site pay only would simplify some things, but for those on a shoestring budget I would hate to see them have to weigh the value of PB against other things.
Unfortunately, difficult posters are a fact of life on a message board. What I was hoping to address with the "blanket amnesty" notion was some of the stress on the core community here.
And hopefully it would not be just a unilateral administrative action. Perhaps those who benefit from the spirit of "forgiveness" might be willing to participate in that spirit and put aside the grinding of old axes (and no, I am *not* targeting the most-recent flap. Various folks have made clear their unwillingness/inability to "forgive" on that front and I respect that).
In other words, via an amnesty that in and of itself embodies the "supportive spirit" of the board, everyone is invited to rededicate themselves to that spirit.
Again, glad to "meet" you and hope you are planning on staying this time.Michael
Posted by Dinah on October 26, 2003, at 17:32:17
In reply to Ban Everyone,Return by Credit Card Only, posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 16:59:57
I would hate to see such reduced numbers. But I think Dr. Bob has toyed with the idea in the past. I guess he'd have to give refunds for blocks though????
Posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 18:53:02
In reply to Re: Ban Everyone,Return by Credit Card Only » Brio D Chimp, posted by Dinah on October 26, 2003, at 17:32:17
of course! Plus put the assistant moderators on the payroll :)
> I would hate to see such reduced numbers. But I think Dr. Bob has toyed with the idea in the past. I guess he'd have to give refunds for blocks though????
>
>
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 27, 2003, at 7:52:50
In reply to Ban Everyone,Return by Credit Card Only, posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 16:59:57
Would lose me too..
Had all my credit cards taken off me.. I have a debit card, but can't use that for purchases outside UK.
I'd hate to lose this place.. but maybe thats what we've come to now.
Nikki
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 10:57:15
In reply to A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob, posted by madwand on October 26, 2003, at 11:18:31
> Dr Bob (and the board in general),
> Since there appears to be some hard feelings and confusion regarding when people get to come back and under what circumstances, what about this: A blanket amnesty under which all current blocks come to an end *and* everyone's "counter" gets set back to zero. I.e., a fresh start for everyone, and hopefully an invitation to those who pull blocks "frequently" to re-examine their posting style a bit.
> Of course if the rules were going to be changed (e.g. "minor" vs "major" as has been discussed periodically) this would be a good time to roll out that change.
> Hope everyone is having a wonderful weekend!
>
> MichaelI'd be outta here in a flash. See below.
Lar
Posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 11:26:08
In reply to Re: A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob » madwand, posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 10:57:15
Larry,
I read your other post and I see your point -- I really do. But as you also pointed out in that post, you can't unring a bell.
So hopefully if Dr. Bob accepts my "blanket amnesty" idea you will reconsider and stay. While it would not be reasonable to ask him to reverse the terms of the "ad hoc" pardon, it would be an opportunity for him to say to the board, "Yes, I agree with Larry and various other posters that this was an inapprropriate bending of the rules. Therefore, in a sort of partial recompense for that transgression I am going to forgive *every* sin that is currently on the books, and not make those kind of ad hoc pardons anymore".
Then hopefully some of those who were blocked recently (or not so recently) and were upset with Dr. Bob's handling of the whole thing will accept their "forgiveness", in turn forgive *him* for the handling of the situation, and then we can all get back to what the board is supposed to be about.
"Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us".
Do you see my point? I can't put words in Dr. Bob's mouth -- perhaps he will choose to defend his original decision. But it does present a possible way to get past this (not to everyone's ideal satisfaction, but as a start).Michael
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 12:09:31
In reply to Re: A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob » Larry Hoover, posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 11:26:08
I'm all for second chances, if that is accepted policy.
While we're handing out second chances, how about my getting a second chance at obtaining the Babble that was described in the FAQ?
Lar
Posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 12:27:24
In reply to Re: A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob » madwand, posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 12:09:31
I think that *can* happen going forward (the Babble you were promised), but it requires everyone (including Dr. Bob) to "give" a little. As Dinah pointed out in your thread, he is extremely unlikely to reverse his specific decision, but he just "might" (for the good of the board) be willing to consider the one-time blanket amnesty. Again, not everyone's *ideal* solution, but it just might work.
I for one will certainly miss your presence here should you decide you have to leave. I hope you will stay.Michael
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2003, at 13:16:44
In reply to Re: A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob » Larry Hoover, posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 12:27:24
There is no way to put this as delicately as I might like. But I don't think that is the solution either. Indeed, I think I might be pretty outraged at releasing all blocks and setting the clock back to zero as well.
No offense to all my blocked friends. I'm sure you know I don't mean to be at all negative to you.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 13:25:53
In reply to Re: A thought : one-time blanket amnesty Dr. Bob » Larry Hoover, posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 12:27:24
> I think that *can* happen going forward (the Babble you were promised), but it requires everyone (including Dr. Bob) to "give" a little.
I gave a little months ago.
> As Dinah pointed out in your thread, he is extremely unlikely to reverse his specific decision,
The whole problem here is that he *did* reverse one. And, to compound matters, he ignored clear evidence of a new violation, at the same time.
> but he just "might" (for the good of the board) be willing to consider the one-time blanket amnesty.
I've considered it, and rejected it.
> Again, not everyone's *ideal* solution, but it just might work.
Work, to do what, exactly? IMHO, it would unfairly enrich or reward those who have violated the basic premises upon which this board was supposedly built. Those who have striven to maintain civility may certainly feel somewhat dismayed to see their efforts unrecognized and unappreciated, even if only by implication.
> I for one will certainly miss your presence here should you decide you have to leave. I hope you will stay.
>
> MichaelLet's not make this about me. I'll make my decision, in time.
Let me simply say that we will get the Babble we get. It may not be the one anyone wants.
Lar
Posted by madwand on October 27, 2003, at 14:28:48
In reply to Re: A thought » madwand, posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2003, at 13:25:53
>> Again, not everyone's *ideal* solution, but it >>just might work.
>Work, to do what, exactly? IMHO, it would unfairly >enrich or reward those who have violated the basic >premises upon which this board was supposedly built. >Those who have striven to maintain civility may >certainly feel somewhat dismayed to see their >efforts unrecognized and unappreciated, even if only >by implication.
Well isn't that always the case with amnesty and forgiveness? When the amnesty for illegal immigrants was declared people complained it was unfair to people who became citizens "the right way". And I wouldn't be surprised that back in
Jesus' time the folks who had not committed adultery felt that the pardoning of the woman was "unfair". Remember that "grace" is, by definition, a gift. It is not "earned".
And what "unfair advantage" would the returnees get, really? Given the way things have developed , are the folks who have never been blocked really "better" than the ones who have?
If I can't convince you (and Dinah) then I can't (the serenity to accept the things I cannot change). My hope was that we could all agree on a middle ground (again, NOT an "ideal solution") from which the whole thing could be put behind us.
It will be interesting to hear how Dr. Bob responds to this. I doubt there is any solution that will make everyone happy.Michael
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 2:41:00
In reply to Re: Ban Everyone,Return by Credit Card Only » Dinah, posted by Brio D Chimp on October 26, 2003, at 18:53:02
> > I think Dr. Bob has toyed with the idea in the past. I guess he'd have to give refunds for blocks though????
>
> of course! Plus put the assistant moderators on the payroll :)I'm still toying with the idea. It would be simpler in many ways to use a service like PayPal:
than to try to deal with credit cards myself. No, I don't think there would be refunds for blocks. Yes, there should be some sort of compensation for deputy moderators.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:35:17
In reply to Re: PayPal Only (Maybe), posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 2:41:00
> than to try to deal with credit cards myself. No, I don't think there would be refunds for blocks. Yes, there should be some sort of compensation for deputy moderators.
>
> BobDon't be silly, Dr. Bob. I wouldn't do it if I got paid. I hate work.
I'm just sorry I haven't kept up with the donations. :(
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 28, 2003, at 9:35:19
In reply to Re: PayPal Only (Maybe), posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 2:41:00
For some reason I can't sign up with paypal.. I've tried when I've tried to buy stuff off Ebay.. It won't accept my bank details as existing.
Maybe me leaving would be a good thing though.. I can't cope with the anger I feel here these days.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 9:40:13
In reply to Re: PayPal Only (Maybe), posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 2:41:00
I think it would make it a lot easier to donate if you accepted Paypal.
Posted by jay on November 3, 2003, at 16:03:45
In reply to Re: PayPal Only (Maybe), posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 2:41:00
> > > I think Dr. Bob has toyed with the idea in the past. I guess he'd have to give refunds for blocks though????
> >
> > of course! Plus put the assistant moderators on the payroll :)
>
> I'm still toying with the idea. It would be simpler in many ways to use a service like PayPal:
>
> http://www.paypal.com
>
> than to try to deal with credit cards myself. No, I don't think there would be refunds for blocks. Yes, there should be some sort of compensation for deputy moderators.
>
> BobDr. Bob:
I guess I am a creature of universal public healthcare, and I honestly think
charging to use your website would further hurt and disenfranchise people
who can't afford it, low income, fixed income, people in poverty..etc. If
people made over a certain amount of money, maybe one way would be to ask
for a quick brief copy of income tax statement. The other fact is that
people living in poverty or in low-wage jobs tend to suffer more often from
mental illness than people in secure, middle-upper income lives.(This is
documented in the excellent book "Noonday Demon" ) There is a whole
chapter in that book devoted to poverty and mental illness, and I highly
suggest reading it, and doing some social research yourself if possible.If the website is costing you too much money, possibly look for government
or non-profit grants. Limiting this website to those who can afford it would
be a great injustice, and yet another slam of the door of people in poverty
who have been dealt this horrid losing hand much of their life.If you'd like further research, I'd be more than glad to help out.
Sincerely,
Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2003, at 8:24:21
In reply to Re: PayPal Only..Blow/strike to poor folks » Dr. Bob, posted by jay on November 3, 2003, at 16:03:45
> possibly look for government
> or non-profit grants.
>
> If you'd like further research, I'd be more than glad to help out.We've looked into grant possibilities before, but that's a lot of work. But if you can find something appropriate, sure, let me know!
Bob
Posted by jay on November 6, 2003, at 21:58:03
In reply to Re: grants, posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2003, at 8:24:21
> > possibly look for government
> > or non-profit grants.
> >
> > If you'd like further research, I'd be more than glad to help out.
>
> We've looked into grant possibilities before, but that's a lot of work. But if you can find something appropriate, sure, let me know!
>
> BobDr. Bob...I'd need the help of an American poster, since that is where the 'physical' server is located. I don't know a lot about how the community service type grants work in the U.S. Can you give me any basic info on where to look? I'd be willing to write something up and pass it to a U.S. poster or you to send in.
Thanks...
Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 7, 2003, at 2:40:22
In reply to Re: grants » Dr. Bob, posted by jay on November 6, 2003, at 21:58:03
> Can you give me any basic info on where to look?
Sorry, I don't have anything like that. Maybe do a search?
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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