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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 2, 2003, at 0:55:48
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 7:49:27
> I thought that you had plans to set up a health/exercise/etc. board. Would nutrition fit in with that concept?
That idea, as I understood it, was more healthy habits, rather nutritional supplements...
One issue that did occur to me: There are already tons of posts about alternative approaches on PB, and follow-ups to them would stay by default on PB. Wouldn't that mean a ton of redirecting?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 10:05:49
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board?, posted by Dr. Bob on May 2, 2003, at 0:55:48
Ah, ok. Then the proposal for this board isn't so much nutritional supplementation as medication alternatives. In that case, I think PB is just fine for those posts. If something is touted as being able to perform the same function as meds, changing the biochemistry of the body by ingesting something, then leaving it on the meds board next to pharmaceuticals that do the same makes sense.
If on the other hand, the purpose is a healthier lifestyle to eliminate negative elements caused by deficiencies in nutrition or exercise, I think a separate board would be worthwhile.
At least that's the way my brain looks at it.
Posted by bluedog on May 2, 2003, at 22:08:33
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board?, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2003, at 6:00:32
> > It may be advantageous to have a board devoted to posts in the Nutrition/Diet/Supplement arena. Psycho-Babble can then focus mainly on conventional meds which is presently intermixed with both. This arrangement may be more helpful to those of us who are seeking a more alternative/natural approach. Just an idea. Any comments?
>
> Hmm, interesting idea... I'd rather people didn't focus *only* on alternative approaches, and not consider medication, but you're right, the grocery store would be more organized that way, which would be a good thing. Any other comments?
>
BobI think Paulie's idea is a REALLY good one.
I hope you take his advice and DO actually take action and implement a Nutrition/Supplement/Diet board.
Like you say the med board can then be devoted purely to issues relating to the traditional prescription psych meds (ie SSRI's, SNRI's tricyclics, MAOI's, Benzo's and Opiates etc etc) leaving the grocery store much easier to negotiate around.
If you do make the change you should also change the name of the Psychobabble Board to something like "Psycho-Medication-Babble" which we could all then refer to as PMB. The nutrition board could then for example be referred to to as PNB. (ie just like Pscycho-Social-Babble is referred to as PSB).
I think your worry that people will then *only* tend to focus on alternative approaches is unfounded. I for one have no intention of giving my prescription meds the flick just because I use a holistic approach and use supplements and diet to augment and compliment my prescription meds.
I'm pretty sure that the posters at Psycho Babble are intelligent and sufficiently well informed to realise that nutrition/diet/ supplementation AND the traditional meds BOTH have a significant role to play in our overall treatment approaches:):)
regards
bluedog
Posted by kara lynne on May 3, 2003, at 0:01:30
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board? » Dr. Bob, posted by bluedog on May 2, 2003, at 22:08:33
For those of us who are augmenting our meds, how would we direct our questions? Would any focus on nutritional supplementation go to the other board even if it focused on the interaction between the two?
Posted by noa on May 3, 2003, at 7:21:27
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board?, posted by kara lynne on May 3, 2003, at 0:01:30
I like to read and discuss supplements, too. But I really don't want to have to check yet another separate board.
I like the separate boards so far, but it is time consuming to check different boards. Since for me, the meds and supplements go together, I would rather they stay on the same board, as they are.
If you felt you wanted a separate board to talk about healthy lifestyle--ie, nutrition (including eating and cooking healthfully, etc.), exercise, massage, meditation, tai chi, etc. etc. that seems logical to me, but supplements, to me, belong where they are--at the main PB board.
Thanks.
Posted by medlib on May 6, 2003, at 0:43:06
In reply to Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by Paulie on April 29, 2003, at 9:52:52
Kara lynne has a very important point, I believe. There is *significant* potential for interaction between prescription meds, OTC meds and supplements. This type of info is some of the most useful that PBers profer, since it is mentioned so seldom by docs or pharmacists. Therefore, I think it's important to keep discussions of *all* non-caloric, oral substances on the same board.
I agree that a healthy lifestyles PB could prove interesting. But, Babble boards seem to be proliferating like rabbits; perhaps, it's time to consider some limits. One I'd like to offer for consideration would require that any new board must *replace* (or consolidate with) an existing board. What do you think?
Regards, medlib
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2003, at 0:11:49
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by medlib on May 6, 2003, at 0:43:06
> I think PB is just fine for those posts. If something is touted as being able to perform the same function as meds, changing the biochemistry of the body by ingesting something, then leaving it on the meds board next to pharmaceuticals that do the same makes sense.
>
> DinahYes, I see what you mean...
> For those of us who are augmenting our meds, how would we direct our questions? Would any focus on nutritional supplementation go to the other board even if it focused on the interaction between the two?
>
> kara lynneI think it would be more likely that someone knowledgeable about supplements would know about their interactions with medication than someone knowledgeable about medication would know about their interactions with supplements, but that's just a guess...
> I like the separate boards so far, but it is time consuming to check different boards.
>
> noaI know, but you can't do everything...
> Babble boards seem to be proliferating like rabbits; perhaps, it's time to consider some limits. One I'd like to offer for consideration would require that any new board must *replace* (or consolidate with) an existing board. What do you think?
>
> medlibThere may not be much reason to keep 2001, at least not in its current form. Tele is kind of a special case. There's not much harm in a little proliferation, is there?
I'm feeling inclined to go ahead with something like this. Partly to have a more organized grocery store, partly so PB wouldn't be so busy. But what to call it? "Nutrition" may be a little too narrow. The NIH term is "complementary and alternative":
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam
But that's kind of wordy. "Unconventional"?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 16, 2003, at 14:09:32
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2003, at 0:11:49
I still like the healthy lifestyle board idea better.
A lot of people tend to forget that herbal or alternative treatments *are* drugs. Aspirin is made of willow bark, right? (or something like that) Digitalis comes from foxglove?
Where would the line be drawn, and should it?
Is this because of the recent high turnover of the meds board?
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 16, 2003, at 15:55:04
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2003, at 0:11:49
> I'm feeling inclined to go ahead with something like this. Partly to have a more organized grocery store, partly so PB wouldn't be so busy. But what to call it? "Nutrition" may be a little too narrow. The NIH term is "complementary and alternative":
>
> http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam;
>
> But that's kind of wordy. "Unconventional"?What about "holistic"?
Posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 0:40:42
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2003, at 0:11:49
> I'm feeling inclined to go ahead with something like this. Partly to have a more organized grocery store, partly so PB wouldn't be so busy. But what to call it? "Nutrition" may be a little too narrow. The NIH term is "complementary and alternative":
>
> http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam
>
> But that's kind of wordy. "Unconventional"?
>
> BobWhat about "Psycho-Babble Nutritional Supplements"?
-- Ron
P.S. Just for the record, Dr. Bob, I'd prefer that the nutritional supplements posts stay where they are currently located on PB so I don't need to check yet another board. But it sounds like you have made up your mind on this one, and I agree that the change will help with the high traffic volume issue on PB. Thanks for this forum.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2003, at 4:48:45
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board??? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 16, 2003, at 14:09:32
> I still like the healthy lifestyle board idea better.
It's not either-or, that one's still on my list, too...
> A lot of people tend to forget that herbal or alternative treatments *are* drugs. Aspirin is made of willow bark, right? (or something like that) Digitalis comes from foxglove?
That's one advantage of the NIH term...
> Where would the line be drawn, and should it?
You mean where between over-the-counter medication and this new category, whatever we call it?
> Is this because of the recent high turnover of the meds board?
That's one of the reasons, yes...
Maybe just "alternative", but meaning both "alternative" and "complementary"?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 9:33:24
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Alternative board?, posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2003, at 4:48:45
> Maybe just "alternative", but meaning both "alternative" and "complementary"?
Let's give that a try:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter
Bob
Posted by EscherDementian on September 9, 2003, at 5:42:01
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2003, at 0:11:49
i know i'm kinda late to join the peanut gallery on this one, but YAY! dOUBLE YAY!! TRIPLE YAY!!! QUADRUPLE YAY!!!! WHATEVER COMES AFTER QUADRUPLE YAY....!!!!!
i've been ping-ponging all over the internet, trying to learn about nutritional solutions or complimentry support, herbal, 'alternative', ancient traditional practices, etc. I've paid for visits to ask questions of natureopaths (most are against western-med-pharmaceudicals, i've found, and expect to perscribe from their knowledge, not be available just for questions), haunting libraries and bookstores, healthfood/suppliment stores.... The research energy spent vs. the useful information distilled for a specific question can be an exausting diminished return.
i _gratefully_ duplicate myself in triplicate in your honour, Dr.Bob and Admin in thanx for this board.
EscherDementian
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2003, at 18:19:05
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Nutrition Board???, posted by EscherDementian on September 9, 2003, at 5:42:01
Posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 2:43:21
Dr Bob,
I can understand the need to split off some of the posts from the medication board as it reaches bursting point..but why the distinction between "alternative medications" vs prescription medications? Everything we ingest has a reaction in our body whether it is a banana or SAM-e or Zyprexa.I know that there is a large number of people out there who feel a bit jaded with the medical profession (I know I can be at times). I know we all wish to seek out alternatives, but I'm starting to get a bit miffed about the growing climate of antagonism between alternative therapy and the traditional medical profession.
Case in point; I saw willow bark extract advertised the other day as an alternative painkiller. Willowbark exract is salicylic acid ie asprin minus an extra chemical group (an acetyl group) that tops the stomach problems associated with salicylic acid.
Please don't make the issue confusing for us. We should seek out all means to be well again by using all options and information and not prejudice ourselves against some potential life saving therapies.
Amy
BSc Hons (Biochem). Grad. Dip. Science Communication
Posted by stjames on September 15, 2003, at 11:58:35
In reply to Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 2:43:21
So how does having a seperate board
for discussing alternative therapies
seem to be a negative ? Why not give them their
own place. Often this causes an increase of
posts on a subject.
Posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 15:30:51
In reply to Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 2:43:21
Whoa!
Why would it be assumed that having a seperate space for alternative therapies constitute
antagonism between 'conventional' and alternative?I think that is putting a personal judgement on something that is completely neutral, In fact something I think was probably suggested by the participants of this board.
Would it be any different than having a board for
SSRI medications and MAOI medications? Or would that be automatically pitting one against the other as well?
Posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 18:14:23
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies » amy_oz, posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 15:30:51
> Whoa!
>
> Why would it be assumed that having a seperate space for alternative therapies constitute
> antagonism between 'conventional' and alternative?1. Because there is no difference between alternative and conventional therapies
2. Because I know a number of people who will only take medications if they are "natural" and vice versa. They don't realise that anything we ingest can have nasty side effects.
The only real difference between natural and conventional therapies is that conventional therapies have to go through a strict testing regime.
We had a problem recently in Australia where a natural remedy for altitude sickness caused people to become psychotic
Also St Johns Wort which is sold in supermarkets here has been know to cause the contraceptive pill to fail.
I think people should be educated about the lack of any real difference between conventional medications they ingest and natural medications.
> I think that is putting a personal judgement on something that is completely neutral, In fact something I think was probably suggested by the participants of this board.
>
> Would it be any different than having a board for
> SSRI medications and MAOI medications? Or would that be automatically pitting one against the other as well?no..I'm not suggesting that. I just think that anyine looking for medications should have a one stop shop. Most people end up taking a combo of whats traditionally regarded as conventional and meds that are natural. I know I am.
Posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 20:25:27
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 18:14:23
While its true that all medications are 'natural'
in that one is a molecular structure occuring in
nature and one is a structure created by
scientists, or based on or derived from a naturally occuring substance;
I think what is considered "alternative" here, is an alternative to what is typically prescribed by Western Medicine.
There is a difference. I don't know anywhere in North America that that is not the case.The subject of the board in question is "Alternative and Complimentary Therapies"
Which also undoubtedly includes more than medicationI'm not quite sure what your point is about St John's wort causing the Birth Control pill to fail. Antibiotics can cause it to fail, so can an excess of B vitamins.
That certainly wouldn't be a topic avoided on the Alternative board
because St Johns Wort is onsidered 'alternative'
and the Birth control Pill is not. Is that what you were getting at?If anything a board offering the subject of Alternative medicine would invite those knowledgeable in the subject to post,
and offer educated information about interactions such as those you mentioned.I think "one stop shopping" is certainly available
as you can easily read and post on both boards and many people do.This is the first Web Site I've seen where there that hasn't been devoted to one subject or the other.
I guess I'm just unable to see what you find to be a problem.
Posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 21:19:33
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies » amy_oz, posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 20:25:27
> While its true that all medications are 'natural'
> in that one is a molecular structure occuring in
> nature and one is a structure created by
> scientists, or based on or derived from a naturally occuring substance;
> I think what is considered "alternative" here, is an alternative to what is typically prescribed by Western Medicine.
> There is a difference. I don't know anywhere in North America that that is not the case.yeah there are differences to what is prescribed by western medicine at the moment but there shouldn't be. if it works, it works end of story.
The more we actually separate them out the more hassle in getting them integrated in the future
they should be integrated. that is precisely my point.It is incredibly frustrating to see people posting about SAM-e to the meds board and getting redirected to the alternative board.
If there has to be a distinction for people wanting to know alternatives why can't info for "meds" like SAM-e be posted on both boards?
Thats the point i'm trying to make> The subject of the board in question is "Alternative and Complimentary Therapies"
> Which also undoubtedly includes more than medicationSure,
I acknowledge that. But people discuss ECT on the meds board and that is accepted too. There is nowhere else to discuss anything like ECT other than meds or therapy..>I'm not quite sure what your point is about St >John's wort causing the Birth Control pill to >fail. Antibiotics can cause it to fail, so can >an excess of B vitamins.
Beacuase people assume because its natural it can't be wrong for you. I know so many people who fall into that trap.
> That certainly wouldn't be a topic avoided on the Alternative board
> because St Johns Wort is onsidered 'alternative'
> and the Birth control Pill is not. Is that what you were getting at?no see above
> If anything a board offering the subject of Alternative medicine would invite those knowledgeable in the subject to post,
> and offer educated information about interactions such as those you mentioned.That'd be great. I'm sure people will.
> I think "one stop shopping" is certainly available
> as you can easily read and post on both boards and many people do.yup, but we have to address the people who won't, because they see one option as intrinsically better than the other.
> This is the first Web Site I've seen where there that hasn't been devoted to one subject or the other.
>
> I guess I'm just unable to see what you find to be a problem.I hope this clarifies it. I've had quite a few discussions here about this issues and they agree. I guess I'm not as good at explaining it when I'm writing :)
Amy
Posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 21:19:33
Yes I'd like to see a time where these are integrated as well, I understand where you're coming from now, thanks for the explanation.
I guess we're just looking at it from two different viewpoints. My thinking is that its great that its (the alternative board) is even included in such a well known website, and that its exclusivity gives more mental space to talk about less conventional therapies and hopefully dispell many of the myths such as the "its natural harmless" one which you mentioned.
This more type of gradual introduction on a fairly "mainstream" media venues I hope will lead our Western society to eventually integrate the two.You I see as wanting more of a precedence setting stance. An amalgamation of the boards sort of symbolizing that there should be no separation.
I can see that point too.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 22:07:45
In reply to Got it! » amy_oz, posted by gabbix2 on September 15, 2003, at 21:52:46
got it, but missed saying some of it,
yeah, I can understand your frustration of having something like sam-e redirected (esp when its something fairly well known for depression use) when you know you'd probably get more answers on the med board. I don't know where I'd draw the line on "alternative"
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 16, 2003, at 0:52:24
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 21:19:33
> I can understand the need to split off some of the posts from the medication board as it reaches bursting point..but why the distinction between "alternative medications" vs prescription medications?
Because that's one way to do that splitting off?
> Everything we ingest has a reaction in our body whether it is a banana or SAM-e or Zyprexa.
And having separate boards for them implies that only one causes a reaction?
> We should seek out all means to be well again by using all options and information and not prejudice ourselves against some potential life saving therapies.
If there were an option I wanted to prejudice people againt, I wouldn't have a separate board for it, would I? :-) Also, people on any board are free to recommend others...
> I know a number of people who will only take medications if they are "natural" and vice versa. They don't realise that anything we ingest can have nasty side effects.
> I think people should be educated about the lack of any real difference between conventional medications they ingest and natural medications.
I agree, education is the answer.
> The only real difference between natural and conventional therapies is that conventional therapies have to go through a strict testing regime.
> there are differences to what is prescribed by western medicine at the moment but there shouldn't be.
Well, isn't strict testing a significant difference? And shouldn't it matter?
> I just think that anyine looking for medications should have a one stop shop.
Think of this site as one shop, and the different boards as different aisles?
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 16, 2003, at 9:45:50
In reply to Re: Definition of alternative therapies, posted by amy_oz on September 15, 2003, at 21:19:33
Can I ask why you didn't bring up any objections when this was being discussed before setting it up?? You've obviously been discussing it with others, yet you didn't say anything here before it was set up??
Nikki
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 19, 2003, at 18:38:25
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble Alternative board, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2003, at 9:33:24
> Let's give that a try...
So far so good, yes?
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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