![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:17:09
What is wrong, in this specific instance, is that some people swear by meds while giving a bad reputation to any other approach on PB. By constantly redirecting, Dr.Bob does not even let us reply to that. I go write my reply on SPB, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about and that's the end of it. Go look: nobody replied in SPB. There is one response only, which had to be redirected from PB anyway, by DrBob. I should think this is right?
So someone not too informed, looking for info, who sees this CBT bashing, may not go further and think that meds are the only thing that can help him. Don't waste time on CBT is the message.
If this web site is a way to inform people and help them heal, I don't think that ongoing conversations should be cut like that all the time. But clearly, this web site serves for reseach purposes more than anything else, and nobody cares about false info being given all the time. "CBT has never been useful to treat serious depression" FALSE! I have to go reply elsewhere however. Might as well not reply at all because the people who read the first statement will likely not bother to go look at the redirects.
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:23:29
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:17:09
> > Plus, not everybody goes to the dairy aisle of the veggy aisle without encouragement. So for good nutrition, we should have a bit of everything in each aisle.
>
> Sid -
> This is a bit too paternalistic for my taste. You could as easily argue that everyone should keep up with world affairs and that a daily news briefing posted here would be appropriate because it was good for us. How about a reminder about safe winter driving while we're at it?Jane,
I was keeping with the grocery aisle analogy. Your world affairs and safe water comments have nothing to do with the analogy. In my message, I mentioned that grocery stores are for profit businesses while this web site is supposed to have, in part, an educational purpose. That's not paternalistic, that's what Dr.Bob supposedly intends, from the agreement we all have to read before being allowed to post here. That is why his grocery aisle analogy is, at best, weak.
Posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
In reply to paternalistic » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:23:29
I thought Dr Bob's 'educational objectives' were re him using the experience of providing such a setting for his research purposes. Not to educate *us*!
Of course, we may well learn from each other, but I dont think its a fundamental objective. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr B?
Fi
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 17:38:31
In reply to Re: paternalistic, posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
Well, I guess I look for info on the web site, so I suppose it is educational for me, as long as I don't read falsities and go believe them.
If I didn't think I could benefit, i.e. learn, from reading here, I'd stop. I just might do that anyway because it is not the first time a conversation filled with falsities is cut short by redirecting, and I find it frustrating, clearly!
Posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
I feel in a funny spot. I very much agree with sid's view & understands why she takes that view. But I can also understand Dr. Bob's side in trying to keep discussions organised & not all jumbled. Is there a way around this dilemma? Perhaps.
What if a post that's to be redirected had a new icon beside it? We now have neat little yellow icons saying 'New' - how about a green icon saying 'Redirect' that stays & don't disappear on redirected posts? And on the new page it was redirected to, there'd be the green icon but now saying 'Redirected'. Then the person who'd like to continue the discussion can find it easily. Sid, you could post just under the green 'Redirect' an invitation to please continue this discussion.
I know this might not be the best suggestion, but hey? all our minds should be able to come together & think of a good solution. I hope I can get people started. I do think it's important to know the different options of treating mental/emotional problems & that meds are just one option & shouldn't force other options not to be considered.
(Can you tell that I'm always the negotiator in a group?)
Posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
wanna adopt me? pls. thx.
Oh, and I also think that an icon, or some other redirect indicator would be a good idea.
(In fact, there could be a variety of icons, symbolising what the nature of a post is, etc. -- it would be easier to navigate.)
Posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 21:53:38
In reply to adopt me » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
So are you worth anything if I adopt you? What do I get out of it? Something, I hope. :)
I'd probably mother you to death, if you didn't run away first.Yeah, it did take a bit for me to figure out these forums too & I'm *not* computer uneducated either. For me, a lot of it has to do with the previous post still printed in the answer box & figuring out what is the new answer & what was there before.
Hey, I tossed the idea of redirect icons in hoping others would constructively tear my idea apart & come up with better plans.
>
> wanna adopt me? pls. thx.
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:03:28
In reply to adopt me » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:04:03
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
Posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
> What is wrong, in this specific instance, is that some people swear by meds while giving a bad reputation to any other approach on PB. By constantly redirecting, Dr.Bob does not even let us reply to that. I go write my reply on SPB, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about and that's the end of it. Go look: nobody replied in SPB. There is one response only, which had to be redirected from PB anyway, by DrBob. I should think this is right?
Sid,
But in fact you never did reply on PSB at all. I was waiting to see you there. Instead you made all your answers on PB arguing about why the thread should not be redirected. I certainly got the impression that you did not want to continue the conversation at all if you had to do it there. I wouldn't be surprised if other people were offended as well. Not all threads will continue - some are ready to die at the point they are redirected - but I think you could have kept this one going if you'd bothered.
> So someone not too informed, looking for info, who sees this CBT bashing, may not go further and think that meds are the only thing that can help him. Don't waste time on CBT is the message.
Maybe they are. Maybe they shouldn't. And maybe by the time we get here we are not all as ill informed as you think. After all, there are a lot of other web sites that very carefully give CBT equal time and it's pretty hard to miss them all on your way here. Many of them are designed on a basic level. When I want a certain kind of carefully edited information that is where I go. This site doesn't exist by itself so there is no reason that every single word written here has to be totally balanced within this site alone.
-Jane
Posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:31:51
In reply to Re: paternalistic, posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
> I thought Dr Bob's 'educational objectives' were re him using the experience of providing such a setting for his research purposes. Not to educate *us*!
>
> Of course, we may well learn from each other, but I dont think its a fundamental objective. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr B?
>
> Fi
I'm not sure I see how it can do the first without doing the second so does it really matter?Jane
Posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 10:48:31
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
I didn't have to write on SPB, Dr.Bob redirected my messages there. And then, there was no response from anyone. Was I supposed to reply to myself?
If I can't speak my mind about redirects now, what is it I can talk about? Perhaps you should tell me so I make sure I don't offend you anymore. Pleasing everybody really is my priority in life.
Posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 11:20:49
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
Posted by fi on January 29, 2002, at 12:41:37
In reply to Re: purpose » Fi, posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:31:51
I agree there's quite an overlap between the site being educational and how I see it. A lot of coping tips type things are sharing info/skills, but I think some of the support isnt necessarily linked with something being educational.
But no big deal- dont want to get lost in terminology.
Fi
Posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 13:13:29
In reply to Re: separating discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on January 28, 2002, at 11:33:14
Well, Dr.Bob, after jane d's implicit suggestion that I was not being constructive, I started a new thread on rounded approaches to heal or deal with depression on PSB. I'll see how that goes and perhpas make constructive suggestions depending on results. I have the impression that PSB is more social than anything else and that serious discussions cannot be held there. I may be wrong. So I decided to give it a try.
Posted by Fi on January 29, 2002, at 14:28:18
In reply to giving it a try » Dr. Bob, posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 13:13:29
I'm glad you are giving it a try. Just to say as a regular PSB user, there are some extremely serious discussions there, as well as a chunk of social and the occasional more chatty, jokey comment. The whole range. Hope you get something useful out of it.
Fi
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 0:41:31
In reply to giving it a try » Dr. Bob, posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 13:13:29
> not everybody goes to the dairy aisle of the veggy aisle without encouragement.
Right, but didn't I say encouragement was fine?
> So for good nutrition, we should have a bit of everything in each aisle. There goes your analogy! To improve people's welfare, current aisles are no good; they're made for grocers to make money, period.
Aisles make the process more efficient, no matter what the goal is. Health food stores have aisles, too...
> I'm stubborn, huh?
Yup! :-)
> Might as well not reply at all because the people who read the first statement will likely not bother to go look at the redirects.
>
> sidI agree, that's a risk. But:
1. That's one reason I post links to redirected threads, to make it easier for people to make the "jumps".
2. People who take a less thorough approach to looking for information will tend to end up less thoroughly informed. It helps if the information they come upon is balanced, but it would help if they bothered to make the jumps, too.
----
> I thought Dr Bob's 'educational objectives' were re him using the experience of providing such a setting for his research purposes. Not to educate *us*!
>
> FiYou mean when I say this is a message board for "mutual support and education"? I do in fact mean that people here educate each other as well as support each other.
----
> how about a green icon saying 'Redirect' that stays & don't disappear on redirected posts? And on the new page it was redirected to, there'd be the green icon but now saying 'Redirected'. Then the person who'd like to continue the discussion can find it easily.
>
> IsoMWell, there aren't special icons, but I do put "redirect", and used to put "redirected", in my subject lines... (I stopped saying "redirected" because I was afraid people might think those threads were only intended for those who had been posting on them before.)
And isn't it easier just to click on a link in the "redirect" post than to go to the other board and look for an icon?
----
> Well, Dr.Bob, after jane d's implicit suggestion that I was not being constructive, I started a new thread on rounded approaches to heal or deal with depression on PSB. I'll see how that goes and perhpas make constructive suggestions depending on results. I have the impression that PSB is more social than anything else and that serious discussions cannot be held there. I may be wrong. So I decided to give it a try.
>
> sidI was wrong, you're not so stubborn after all! :-)
So far so good with that thread?
I do think others might also feel more "serious" discussions might not fit in at PSB. That's why I proposed splitting it up:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20011216/msgs/2502.html
----
> it did take a bit for me to figure out these forums too & I'm *not* computer uneducated either. For me, a lot of it has to do with the previous post still printed in the answer box & figuring out what is the new answer & what was there before.
>
> IsoMHmm, I think of it as something everyone's familiar with from email, but I think I'm wrong. Maybe I should add something to the FAQ about the > signs, previous posts, etc. Would anyone here like to volunteer to draft an explanation? Or knows of one online that I could just link to?
Bob
Posted by sid on January 31, 2002, at 1:15:16
In reply to Re: giving it a try, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 0:41:31
> > Well, Dr.Bob, after jane d's implicit suggestion that I was not being constructive, I started a new thread on rounded approaches to heal or deal with depression on PSB. I'll see how that goes and perhpas make constructive suggestions depending on results. I have the impression that PSB is more social than anything else and that serious discussions cannot be held there. I may be wrong. So I decided to give it a try.
> >
> > sid
>
> I was wrong, you're not so stubborn after all! :-)Thanks... I think? :-)
> So far so good with that thread?Yes. Therapy and CBT don't leave people indifferent it seems. Some people don't like CBT at all, and that surprises me - my experience was fine with. My stubbornnes must have helped in not doing the embarrassing homeworks and having an overall rather good opinion of CBT.
> I do think others might also feel more "serious" discussions might not fit in at PSB. That's why I proposed splitting it up:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20011216/msgs/2502.html
>
> BobYes, I did have such an idea too. I was thinking that if the new thread did not continue, then I would suggest another page for serious discussion and sharing of info on alternatives/complements to meds: psychotherapy, yoga, relaxation techniques, exercise, diet, herbal supplements, acupuncture, etc. It could be a good idea to split that from the social stuff including mutual support (e.g.: venting about something and asking advice to others).
- not-so-stubborn-sid
Posted by IsoM on January 31, 2002, at 1:36:50
In reply to Re: giving it a try, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 0:41:31
> > "...Aisles make the process more efficient, no matter what the goal is. Health food stores have aisles, too..."
Hoo. boy, Dr. Bob! You don't know health food stores - their aim is just like every other store - to make money. After all, I managed one for a time.
...................................> > "...how about a green icon saying 'Redirect' that stays & doesn't disappear on redirected posts? > > "...isn't it easier just to click on a link in the "redirect" post than to go to the other board and look for an icon?"
We don't have to look for an icon, it jumps out at the viewer. That's how I keep track of what posts I've read when I come back to Psycho-Babble each time. New messages have bright yellow icons saying 'New' beside them & I can scroll very quickly down the page & see them without even looking hard.
...........................................
> > "...Hmm, I think of it as something everyone's familiar with from email, but I think I'm wrong. Maybe I should add something to the FAQ about the > signs, previous posts, etc. Would anyone here like to volunteer to draft an explanation? Or knows of one online that I could just link to?"I don't mean to say I'm unfamiliar with forums, but I think a good idea would be the field (the message box) we type our reply in start empty & not contain the previous postings in it. Many people don't bother deleting the previous posts & therefore some new posts have as many as 4 or 5 previous posts all in their answer too.
If the message box started out empty, we could just copy & paste the comments we wanted to in it. Otherwise, I find myself scrolling down the other comments to find the fresh contents. Sound like a good idea? It would save space on the server or whatever it's stored on. And wouldn't need any drafting anything extra.
Posted by susan C on January 31, 2002, at 14:17:19
In reply to Another Idea? » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2002, at 1:36:50
(these are not in any particular order)
1. I support the idea of a blank message screen. I was actually surprised, initially, to see the previous message here, and at a quandry as to whether or not to post my message first or following...and it would save space if i understand what you are saying about 'servers'.2. Having worked in the educational, non profit, profit and if i may make so bold a statement as entreprenural world...every business, every organization, no matter what 'kind' has to operate at a net "gain" providing for the future, etc, etc, ...other than, like the governemnt, you are taxing and providing 'necessary' services, like energy...oh, lets not go there....
3. The search for information comes with it IMHO a requisit need for organization. Profit making and ease of discovery are not necessarily the same, but ease of discovery is important to education.
mouse behind the lecturn
Posted by IsoM on January 31, 2002, at 15:17:39
In reply to Re: Another Idea?, posted by susan C on January 31, 2002, at 14:17:19
See Susan? I have a mental picture of a tiny mouse scimmering up the podium, grasping the front edge in her tiny paws & peering at a large crowd, blinking in amazement at all the people.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 19:03:27
In reply to Another Idea? » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2002, at 1:36:50
> > > "...how about a green icon saying 'Redirect' that stays & doesn't disappear on redirected posts?
> >
> > "...isn't it easier just to click on a link in the "redirect" post than to go to the other board and look for an icon?"
>
> We don't have to look for an icon, it jumps out at the viewer.True enough. There are also technical issues with another icon... The new-post ones are generated based on the current date and a cookie, I'm not sure how I'd get a redirect one in there...
> I don't mean to say I'm unfamiliar with forums, but I think a good idea would be the field (the message box) we type our reply in start empty & not contain the previous postings in it. Many people don't bother deleting the previous posts & therefore some new posts have as many as 4 or 5 previous posts all in their answer too.
>
> If the message box started out empty, we could just copy & paste the comments we wanted to in it. Sound like a good idea? It would save space on the server or whatever it's stored on.The original idea was to try to make it as easy for people as possible; I thought it would be easier to delete a copy of the previous post if you didn't want it than to copy and paste one if you did.
But now I have a better (IMO) idea: offer a button for each option, and have the default be no copy. It would, however, mean an extra step:
1. Select the option and click "post follow-up" (the new step).
2. Enter your message and click "submit".
3. Review your message and click "confirm".OK? And I think I could do it in a way that would save the space on the server, too...
Bob
Posted by IsoM on February 1, 2002, at 2:21:54
In reply to Re: Another Idea?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 19:03:27
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 1, 2002, at 13:38:12
In reply to Re: Another Idea?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2002, at 19:03:27
"The new-post ones are generated based on the current date and a cookie, I'm not sure how I'd get a redirect one in there..."
a year ago I could have told you exactly how to do this, but the meds have taken my brain away.
I'm sure someone else here could help, though, if it's something you want to do.
- KK
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.