![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ted on March 15, 2001, at 11:56:39
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Ted, posted by Shar on March 14, 2001, at 19:05:36
Shar,
ROFLMAO! :-)
ted
> OMG! What if YOU are Sanzio?!? 8-)
Posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 3:32:19
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
Bob Wrote:
> > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...
> > > > > >
It's maybe kind of Eastern unless you're the one who's been traumatized, don't you think? If you can put yourself in the shoes of a traumatized individual, that is. (Let's see, that would be terror, anger, sadness, shame...hmmmm, well, the brushing teeth etc. still seems pretty insulting to me.)You're obviously, also, a better person than I, Dr. Bob---but, then, we expect you to be!!!
Shar
Posted by JahL on March 16, 2001, at 10:14:08
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
> > 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power. I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness. And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history. If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
> I think especially when it comes to religion it would help here to lean over backwards to be tolerant of the views of others...Dr Bob. How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
Besides, pandering to illogical religious musings justs encourages them. As Ted suggests, organised religion has few redeeming qualities & the world wld be a better place w/o it.
> > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...So because there's some pseudo-cultural feel to Sanzio's comments, they are credible? Political correctness (urgh!)?
Mass-suicide, advocated & practised by a number of Japanese religious sects, also seems also to be kinda Eastern...Respectfully,
Jah.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 3:32:19
> > > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
> >
> > Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...
>
> It's maybe kind of Eastern unless you're the one who's been traumatized, don't you think? If you can put yourself in the shoes of a traumatized individual, that is. (... the brushing teeth etc. still seems pretty insulting to me.)To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything. One still should have a life. "Have a life" = "Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth."
The prayer business is also kind of 12-step, as in:
1. We admitted we were powerless over xxx - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
http://www.aa.org/english/E_Pamphlets/P-2_d1.htm#recovery
--------
> How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.
> Political correctness (urgh!)?
Just because something's politically correct doesn't mean it's wrong. :-)
Bob
Posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
> To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
......To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything, and if thought or mundane activity could change it so easily, I'm pretty sure none of us would be Traumatized, Depressed, whatever. Were it a Choice (as in taking a drink is a choice), I'm pretty sure very few people would choose it.
In my experience, depression colors every sense, dampens every emotion, permeates every part of life; depression can feel like a 1,000 pound weight that ensnares me like a sticky spider web; it is on all of me. Now, I guess I could regurgitate words to the effect that depression is not everything, and it still would be in my every pore and thought-byte and nano-emotion. It still would IN FACT be everything.
That's one reason it is so hard to deal with depression. It doesn't LOOK that bad, all another person sees is someone who won't get out of bed. All the boss sees is someone who is not as productive. All the preacher sees is someone who doesn't show up at church so much anymore. It looks dang normal from the outside.
It SEEMS like it should respond to a little force of will--not accepting it, the depressed person shows up for teeth brushing and housecleaning and selfsacrifice bound and determined that the thing eating their brain out won't get THEM down! Because, it's not ev.........well, really we know it is.
The best that could be said of the "it's not everything" school of thought is that the people AROUND the depressed person would probably be a LOT more comfortable to see the depressed person up and about, with renewed "vigor" and determination. Then they (people around the depressed person) do not have to deal with any of the other ick that the depressed person carries inside of him-or-herself.
Shar
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 9:50:32
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
> > How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
> This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.Fair point. But which takes precedence, information or support? When someone posts irresponsible advice (ie give up yr drugs, pray to god), surely this should be challenged, & not 'tolerated'. I actually thought I *was* being (admittedly obliquely) supportive of people in general (just not Sanzio) by pointing out that no-one is to blame for their predicament; no-one is being punished by a higher power. It is the responsibility of the individual to get better (a view you yrself have previously endorsed). To invest yr faith in a god (to get well) is an abnegation of this responsibility.
And I didn't 'see' any 'other' as irrational-I merely pointed out that *organised religions* defy rationale (& to argue with that would itself be irrational-but I'm *not* accusing anyone:-))
> > Political correctness (urgh!)?
> Just because something's politically correct doesn't mean it's wrong. :-)No but I'm naturally mistrustful of p. correctness. It may be a great concept (respect for all), but in practice is all too often hijacked & manipulated by powerful lobby groups, who serve to debase its currency.
I could give some great eg.s but would surely offend. So I won't.FWIW tho', I think (give or take the odd "Please be civil") you've got the moderation here just about spot-on.
J.
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 10:11:21
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
> > To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
>
> ......To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything, and if thought or mundane activity could change it so easily, I'm pretty sure none of us would be Traumatized, Depressed, whatever. Were it a Choice (as in taking a drink is a choice), I'm pretty sure very few people would choose it.
>
> In my experience, depression colors every sense, dampens every emotion, permeates every part of life; depression can feel like a 1,000 pound weight that ensnares me like a sticky spider web; it is on all of me. Now, I guess I could regurgitate words to the effect that depression is not everything, and it still would be in my every pore and thought-byte and nano-emotion. It still would IN FACT be everything.
>
> That's one reason it is so hard to deal with depression. It doesn't LOOK that bad, all another person sees is someone who won't get out of bed. All the boss sees is someone who is not as productive. All the preacher sees is someone who doesn't show up at church so much anymore. It looks dang normal from the outside.
>
> It SEEMS like it should respond to a little force of will--not accepting it, the depressed person shows up for teeth brushing and housecleaning and selfsacrifice bound and determined that the thing eating their brain out won't get THEM down! Because, it's not ev.........well, really we know it is.
>
> The best that could be said of the "it's not everything" school of thought is that the people AROUND the depressed person would probably be a LOT more comfortable to see the depressed person up and about, with renewed "vigor" and determination. Then they (people around the depressed person) do not have to deal with any of the other ick that the depressed person carries inside of him-or-herself.
>
> SharExactly. Which part of this post do psychiatrists & especially psychotherapists not understand?
I have done the sensible thing & 'surrendered' to the 'Trauma'. I know when I've met my match.
If the meaning of life is the attainment of contentment/fulfillment etc (which I guess it is) then anhedonia surely deprives life of all meaning (in which case the trauma *is* everything).
I will rejoin the human race when my meds start working...
J.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 15:35:34
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
> > To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
>
> To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything...I think Pat had a good idea, which is to shift this aspect of this thread to PSB:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010209/msgs/5149.html
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:04:17
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 9:50:32
> > This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.
>
> Fair point. But which takes precedence, information or support?Great question! It depends? :-)
> When someone posts irresponsible advice (ie give up yr drugs, pray to god), surely this should be challenged, & not 'tolerated'.
Well, I don't know. It's not necessarily a bad thing to consider whether the drugs you're on are in fact helping you. And many people are helped by prayer. Maybe more than by drugs?
> I actually thought I *was* being ... supportive ... by pointing out that no-one is to blame for their predicament; no-one is being punished by a higher power.
OK, that's supportive. But was that on this thread?
> It is the responsibility of the individual to get better (a view you yrself have previously endorsed). To invest yr faith in a god (to get well) is an abnegation of this responsibility.
I understand what you're saying, but that's black-and-white and not very tolerant -- or supportive -- of alternative perspectives.
> And I didn't 'see' any 'other' as irrational-I merely pointed out that *organised religions* defy rationale (& to argue with that would itself be irrational-but I'm *not* accusing anyone:-))
It's a fine line, organized religions vs. the people who belong to them. And rationality isn't everything, but "irrational" still has negative connotations.
> FWIW tho', I think (give or take the odd "Please be civil") you've got the moderation here just about spot-on.
Thanks. :-) But keep letting me know what you think, no one's perfect...
Bob
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 18:08:40
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:04:17
> >It's not necessarily a bad thing to consider whether the drugs you're on are in fact helping you. And many people are helped by prayer. Maybe more than by drugs?
I can't believe you wld say such a thing! In fact I'm going to pretend you didn't so that I might maintain my fairly idealistic perception of you:-)
I would be interested to discover how precisely you think prayer might help people (ie placebo vs. divine intervention-if it's the latter then I bet you love my previous posts!).
IMO there are (generally speaking) 3 reasons an individual might not be helped by drugs;
1/ Their disorder has no biological origin.
2/ They are prescribed the 'wrong' drug (happens more often than not).
3/ There has not yet been invented a drug that addresses their specific aetiology.In 1/ & 2/-don't prescribe (consider therapy), & represcribe.
In the case of 3/. the inadequacies of medicine shld not be cause to clutch @ straws & offer false hope. The individual must accept that medicine is not as advanced as they want/need it to be. That's life.
> >I understand what you're saying, but that's [calling religion irrational] black-and-white and not very tolerant -- or supportive -- of alternative perspectives.
Sure, my standpoint is pretty polarised, but years of society ramming religion down my throat has nurtured a healthy contempt! Besides I'd happily keep my views to myself if others didn't insist on bringing 'god' up;-)
Maybe I'll tone down the way I express my thoughts tho'...
J.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2001, at 23:51:34
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 18:08:40
> I would be interested to discover how precisely you think prayer might help people (ie placebo vs. divine intervention...).
Great question! Maybe there are other options besides those two?
> Sure, my standpoint is pretty polarised, but years of society ramming religion down my throat has nurtured a healthy contempt!
>
> Maybe I'll tone down the way I express my thoughts tho'...Good, you wouldn't want to end up ramming something down someone else's throat, right? :-)
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 0:23:47
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
> > There is no way to change such a person, why try?
>
> it's hard to be sure how much someone can change. But if you're going to try, you want to pick an approach that has a decent chance of working, right? :-)So far so good with the "Celexa" thread started by Deidre... :-)
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 22:45:38
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 0:23:47
> So far so good with the "Celexa" thread started by Deidre... :-)
Still no problems there... :-)
Bob
Posted by allisonm on March 23, 2001, at 8:26:07
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 22:45:38
> > So far so good with the "Celexa" thread started by Deidre... :-)
>
> Still no problems there... :-)
>
> BobDo we get gold stars?
:)
Posted by JahL on March 23, 2001, at 13:23:01
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 22, 2001, at 22:45:38
> > So far so good with the "Celexa" thread started by Deidre... :-)
>
> Still no problems there... :-)That's because you've only just drawn it to my attn, & what needed to be said has been:-)
Very sly disguising god-bothering under a 'Celexa' thread.....;-)
Jah.
Posted by dougb on April 24, 2001, at 13:06:48
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Ted on March 14, 2001, at 11:38:02
Brother:
I hope you won;t think that my intent is to 'stir things up'
If one has very loving and special parents, one feels obligated to share that reverence...
> 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power.
---It is only due to our Loving Father's benevolant patronage that His children are allowed the freedom to act and believe as they will.
> I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness.---God does not destroy peoples lives, people only reap what they sow, maybe in a past life, some of us were members of the inquisition (or ?) and are working out our trespasses in this lifetime?
>And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history.
---One could argue that religious narrow-mindedness, self-serving theology and lack of understanding of God's merciful and benevolant nature, have caused this suffering.Man has hurt and killed his fellow man due to his ignorance and exercise of free will, it is by 'paying' for his transgressions that man evolves and perfects his nature.
All are in individual orbits around that Loving Creator, all inexorably moving towards Him but nevertheless at different 'evolutionary' orbits.
> If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
---Where is it written that our Loving Father does not have fun.
He invented fun.
The true nature of the Universe is one of blissful co-existance. Which goes way beyond mere 'fun' in both magnitude and duration.
Of course if one of us has 'fun' that causes pain to another, we are bound to be undergo an 'attitudinal adjustment' that is his job, and is only for the good of all.
Touching God is like touching the Cosmic Joybuzzer, just plain-old fun pales to insignificance in the august presence of that Blissful Entity.
And now i will tell you how to prove to yourself that what i say is true:
If even a hated and terrible person, comes to God with NO THOUGHT about PAST, PRESENT or FUTURE but only one thought in mind: "i have come to take shelter in You, for You are my Final Refuge..."
And thus thinking, takes His shelter, leaving all worries and cares unto Him that person, irregardless of past or current condition will immedeatly be taken on His Lap, and that persons problems will be solved by Him....
Remember this: we will not be drenched by his merciful dispensation if we are holding the unbrella of ego over our pointy little heads.
If you follow the above formula the veil will be lifted and you too will see miricles and will have become a man or woman of God, that irresistable magnet.
Peace and Love to you
Posted by JahL on April 24, 2001, at 14:48:21
In reply to Re: Pertaining to the Creator? » Ted, posted by dougb on April 24, 2001, at 13:06:48
> > I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness.> ---God does not destroy peoples lives, people only reap what they sow, maybe in a past life, some of us were members of the inquisition (or ?) and are working out our trespasses in this lifetime?
Hi Doug.
Here in England our national football (soccer) manager was fired from his job for suggesting handicapped people were paying for sins perpetrated in a past life, & rightly so. It is an absurd suggestion & deeply insulting to anyone suffering with illness right now. I know you mean well & I admire the strength of yr faith in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but you're way off base (IMO).
>religious narrow-mindedness, self-serving theology and lack of understanding
Pot, kettle.
Rgds,
J.
(BTW-I'm not interested in a discussion on theology-it's not something I regard as legitimate.)
Posted by Shar on April 24, 2001, at 20:24:23
In reply to Re: Pertaining to the Creator? » Ted, posted by dougb on April 24, 2001, at 13:06:48
irregardless is not a word.
S> Brother:
>
> I hope you won;t think that my intent is to 'stir things up'
>
> If one has very loving and special parents, one feels obligated to share that reverence...
>
> > 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power.
> ---It is only due to our Loving Father's benevolant patronage that His children are allowed the freedom to act and believe as they will.
>
> > I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness.
>
> ---God does not destroy peoples lives, people only reap what they sow, maybe in a past life, some of us were members of the inquisition (or ?) and are working out our trespasses in this lifetime?
>
> >And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history.
> ---One could argue that religious narrow-mindedness, self-serving theology and lack of understanding of God's merciful and benevolant nature, have caused this suffering.
>
> Man has hurt and killed his fellow man due to his ignorance and exercise of free will, it is by 'paying' for his transgressions that man evolves and perfects his nature.
>
> All are in individual orbits around that Loving Creator, all inexorably moving towards Him but nevertheless at different 'evolutionary' orbits.
>
> > If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
>
> ---Where is it written that our Loving Father does not have fun.
>
> He invented fun.
>
> The true nature of the Universe is one of blissful co-existance. Which goes way beyond mere 'fun' in both magnitude and duration.
>
> Of course if one of us has 'fun' that causes pain to another, we are bound to be undergo an 'attitudinal adjustment' that is his job, and is only for the good of all.
>
> Touching God is like touching the Cosmic Joybuzzer, just plain-old fun pales to insignificance in the august presence of that Blissful Entity.
>
> And now i will tell you how to prove to yourself that what i say is true:
>
> If even a hated and terrible person, comes to God with NO THOUGHT about PAST, PRESENT or FUTURE but only one thought in mind: "i have come to take shelter in You, for You are my Final Refuge..."
>
> And thus thinking, takes His shelter, leaving all worries and cares unto Him that person, irregardless of past or current condition will immedeatly be taken on His Lap, and that persons problems will be solved by Him....
>
> Remember this: we will not be drenched by his merciful dispensation if we are holding the unbrella of ego over our pointy little heads.
>
> If you follow the above formula the veil will be lifted and you too will see miricles and will have become a man or woman of God, that irresistable magnet.
>
> Peace and Love to you
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2001, at 20:08:57
In reply to Re: Pertaining to the Creator? » Ted, posted by dougb on April 24, 2001, at 13:06:48
> If one has very loving and special parents, one feels obligated to share that reverence...
That kind of sharing is more appropriate at Psycho-Social-Babble, however...
Bob
Posted by dougb on May 2, 2001, at 13:05:35
In reply to Redirect: Pertaining to the Creator?, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2001, at 20:08:57
> That kind of sharing is more appropriate at Psycho-Social-Babble, however...
>
> BobAre we supposed to redirect an on-going thread, or do we wait for a 'higher authority' to do that?
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 2, 2001, at 23:57:26
In reply to Re: Higher Authority? » Dr. Bob, posted by dougb on May 2, 2001, at 13:05:35
> > That kind of sharing is more appropriate at Psycho-Social-Babble, however...
>
> Are we supposed to redirect an on-going thread, or do we wait for a 'higher authority' to do that?The higher authority helps those who help themselves. :-)
Bob
PS: You know how to do it, yes? When you first submit your post, click a different board at the top of the preview page...
Posted by dougb on May 3, 2001, at 19:34:28
In reply to Re: Higher Authority?, posted by Dr. Bob on May 2, 2001, at 23:57:26
> PS: You know how to do it, yes? When you first submit your post, click a different board at the top of the preview page...
Yeah, that answers my real question, thanks
BTW:
Why did you redirect the drug company thread to oblivImean administration.And why did my own carefully crafted rant got clobbered eventhough your redirect warning went up just before my post, and was not there when i started.
- no disobedience intended, but it still hurt
Doug B
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 4, 2001, at 18:55:07
In reply to Re: Higher Authority and abuse of power » Dr. Bob, posted by dougb on May 3, 2001, at 19:34:28
> Why did you redirect the drug company thread to oblivImean administration.
Because it had more to do with companies and what happens here than with drugs.
> And why did my own carefully crafted rant got clobbered eventhough your redirect warning went up just before my post, and was not there when i started.
Sorry, but I didn't know when you started... You didn't happen to save a copy, did you?
Bob
Posted by dougb on May 6, 2001, at 16:48:03
In reply to Re: drug company thread, posted by Dr. Bob on May 4, 2001, at 18:55:07
> Sorry, but I didn't know when you started... You didn't happen to save a copy, did you?
I did, but as the threads seem to die on re-direction, it now seems like flogging a dead horse
DB
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2001, at 9:55:55
In reply to Re: drug company thread, posted by dougb on May 6, 2001, at 16:48:03
> > Sorry, but I didn't know when you started... You didn't happen to save a copy, did you?
>
> I did, but as the threads seem to die on re-direction, it now seems like flogging a dead horseI know, that's why I've tried a couple times to repost posts myself to start a new thread on the new board...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.