![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Craig on March 13, 2001, at 1:13:50
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
=================================================
> IMHO, the prayer/meditation post should have been pushed on to social babble after the original post. And I wonder if it's just me, or does the post strike anyone else as incredibly patronizing (almost arrogant) and insulting?
>
> From the author's point of view, depressed people as a group are self-centered, selfish, have dirty houses, no willpower, do not pray or ask God's help in healing the self, and need to be more self-sacrificing. And, furthermore, the answer to the problem is simple, so only lazy people STAY depressed (because if they Wanted to get better they would do all the things listed and be healed).
>
> I guess since it doesn't insult a particular individual by name, it's ok? So, censure of a group (a class) of individuals is ok -- but then you usually have an "ism." Racism, sexism, when it's a particular class of people.
>
> I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says? If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
>
> It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
>
> With happy, happy thoughts and IMHO only,
> Shar
>
>
> > >The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process myfeelings today. I believe that depression is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings sothat I have room for joy. We can process our feelings in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your feelings out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to depression. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove depression. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Cam W. on March 13, 2001, at 6:22:27
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
> IMHO, the prayer/meditation post should have been pushed on to social babble after the original post. And I wonder if it's just me, or does the post strike anyone else as incredibly patronizing (almost arrogant) and insulting?
>
> From the author's point of view, depressed people as a group are self-centered, selfish, have dirty houses, no willpower, do not pray or ask God's help in healing the self, and need to be more self-sacrificing. And, furthermore, the answer to the problem is simple, so only lazy people STAY depressed (because if they Wanted to get better they would do all the things listed and be healed).
>
> I guess since it doesn't insult a particular individual by name, it's ok? So, censure of a group (a class) of individuals is ok -- but then you usually have an "ism." Racism, sexism, when it's a particular class of people.
>
> I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says? If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
>
> It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
>
> With happy, happy thoughts and IMHO only,
> Shar
>
>
> > >The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process myfeelings today. I believe that depression is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings sothat I have room for joy. We can process our feelings in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your feelings out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to depression. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove depression. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 13, 2001, at 11:25:49
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
That was very well put.. I would never have had the ability to write it so well, but thankyou for saying how many of us felt about that post.
Nikki
> IMHO, the prayer/meditation post should have been pushed on to social babble after the original post. And I wonder if it's just me, or does the post strike anyone else as incredibly patronizing (almost arrogant) and insulting?
>
> From the author's point of view, depressed people as a group are self-centered, selfish, have dirty houses, no willpower, do not pray or ask God's help in healing the self, and need to be more self-sacrificing. And, furthermore, the answer to the problem is simple, so only lazy people STAY depressed (because if they Wanted to get better they would do all the things listed and be healed).
>
> I guess since it doesn't insult a particular individual by name, it's ok? So, censure of a group (a class) of individuals is ok -- but then you usually have an "ism." Racism, sexism, when it's a particular class of people.
>
> I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says? If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
>
> It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
>
> With happy, happy thoughts and IMHO only,
> Shar
>
>
> > >The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process myfeelings today. I believe that depression is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings sothat I have room for joy. We can process our feelings in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your feelings out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to depression. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove depression. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by JahL on March 13, 2001, at 12:28:19
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
Like you Shar, I too caught the inference of Sanzio's post, and was as insulted as when this type of crap was peddled to me by smug & self-deluded (in terms of thinking that through the power of [their] thought & words alone, serious biochemical disturbances could be rectified) psycotherapists.
In the context of the original post I agree that BK's response was suitably glib. Sanzio's post deserved no better, especially when he/she starts ranting on about mythical figures, & their fabled abilities to cure all ills (sounds like my last pdoc's self-description).
Jah.
~> IMHO, the prayer/meditation post should have been pushed on to social babble after the original post. And I wonder if it's just me, or does the post strike anyone else as incredibly patronizing (almost arrogant) and insulting?
>
> From the author's point of view, depressed people as a group are self-centered, selfish, have dirty houses, no willpower, do not pray or ask God's help in healing the self, and need to be more self-sacrificing. And, furthermore, the answer to the problem is simple, so only lazy people STAY depressed (because if they Wanted to get better they would do all the things listed and be healed).
>
> I guess since it doesn't insult a particular individual by name, it's ok? So, censure of a group (a class) of individuals is ok -- but then you usually have an "ism." Racism, sexism, when it's a particular class of people.
>
> I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says? If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
>
> It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
>
> With happy, happy thoughts and IMHO only,
> Shar
>
>
> > >The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process myfeelings today. I believe that depression is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings sothat I have room for joy. We can process our feelings in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your feelings out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to depression. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove depression. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by allisonm on March 13, 2001, at 18:14:22
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
Posted by pandora on March 13, 2001, at 20:31:27
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
I agree also, but isn't it interesting that 'Sanzio' hasn't posted a follow-up? Maybe he/she just wanted to stir things up...
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 3:10:44
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
> I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says?
Being friendly and trying to help I do think make a big difference...
> If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
Hmm:
> > I believe that sex is a composite of unaddressed feelings... Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to sex. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove sex...
:-)
> It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
I understand what you're saying. But still. The main idea here is support and education, not being funny or even giving people what they deserve. Ignoring the post would've been fine. Getting angry, OK, but not *posting* something sarcastic; some just leads to more. Helping the author to understand, *that* would've been a nice response. :-)
Bob
PS: Now I feel I over-reacted myself in my above post to you, but you did post what you did, so I guess I'll let my response stand. But I do appreciate this second, more measured post.
Posted by Greg on March 14, 2001, at 11:36:20
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 3:10:44
Hi Bob,
Long time no talk to..
You make some valid points here and I think by the fact that this person makes no follow-ups to his/her original post makes eveyone realize that this was just yet another "hit and run" post designed to inflame the masses.
I must admit that the post made me angry as well. To insinuate that treating depression is so simplistic as to simply get up in the morning and brush your teeth leads me to believe that this person is sadly uninformed. Were it that simple, we could start our own "Depression Anonymous".
We could all sit around meetings, drinking coffee, telling our stories and getting phone numbers from the other members so we could call them before we make a concious (sp?) decision to have our next depressive episode. Before anyone rips me for making fun of 12-step programs, I am a recovering alcoholic of thirteen years and am active in AA, so please understand that I'm only trying to make a point...The bottom line for me is, that while this person's post was "friendly and helpful" in nature, it was still irresponsible in it's content. I'm with Shar in thinking that it would have been appropriate for you to have communicated that, IMHO of course.
I hope everything is well with you.
Greg
> > I was quite surprised that you, Dr. Bob, chose to reprimand the post that was "sarcastic." Jeeze, is the original post ok because it is "friendly" (ie, just trying to help) even given what it says?
>
> Being friendly and trying to help I do think make a big difference...
>
> > If you substitute race or sex for depression in that post, we would have people up in arms!
>
> Hmm:
>
> > > I believe that sex is a composite of unaddressed feelings... Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to sex. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding toremove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove sex...
>
> :-)
>
> > It seems to me the "sarcastic" response was funny and a worthy/appropriate response to the post. Did you, Dr. Bob, expect people here who are struggling with trying to drag themselves out of bed and fight the paralyzing depths of despair to Ignore the original post, Embrace It, Feel bad that they are such losers, Get Angry or what? The fairly modest sarcasm in the response you pointed to seems really mild to me, and in comparison, not worthy of a reprimand, and someone (maybe the moderator here?) needs to help the author understand a bit more about the stultifying impact of depression plus its chemical bases.
>
> I understand what you're saying. But still. The main idea here is support and education, not being funny or even giving people what they deserve. Ignoring the post would've been fine. Getting angry, OK, but not *posting* something sarcastic; some just leads to more. Helping the author to understand, *that* would've been a nice response. :-)
>
> Bob
>
> PS: Now I feel I over-reacted myself in my above post to you, but you did post what you did, so I guess I'll let my response stand. But I do appreciate this second, more measured post.
Posted by Ted on March 14, 2001, at 11:38:02
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by pandora on March 13, 2001, at 20:31:27
I will add just two things:
1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power. I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness. And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history. If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
2. The post by Sanzio is *very* indicative of the posts made on the unmoderated newsgroups (alt.support.depression, alt.support.depression.medication, and alt.support.depression.manic) which are made solely to stir things up and cause trouble. Those newsgroups are TOTALLY USELESS because of all of the flaming & spamming. That is why I moved to this group, and have recommended it to many others.
Dr. Bob, I will not argue with your decision, but I kindly ask you to visit the aforementioned newsgroups for an example of just how messed up things get when there is no moderation. I feel you provide just the right amount of moderation, but I often disagree with where it is placed.
And finally, I ask of all Psycho Babble readers: If a post looks like it was made solely to stir things up, IGNORE IT and email it to Dr. Bob so he can remove it. By not giving in, they will not return. Be PROactive, not REactive.
Ted
PS: How do you know Sanzio isn't present under a different name? There is no way to find out.... I have known people to stir things up with one username and then reply with another. (Would that be multiple personality disorder?)
> I agree also, but isn't it interesting that 'Sanzio' hasn't posted a follow-up? Maybe he/she just wanted to stir things up...
Posted by Shar on March 14, 2001, at 18:58:05
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
Maybe somewhat more realistic wrt substitution--if this was posted on a board for people who had been violently harassed due to gender or ethnicity.
The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Shar on March 14, 2001, at 19:05:36
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Ted on March 14, 2001, at 11:38:02
OMG! What if YOU are Sanzio?!? 8-)
I wonder if Dr. Bob would remove a post that some people felt was inflammatory. The only time he's ever done so was if a post was really a flame, or a post that was about a suicide web site.
I think a post like Sanzio's is considered ok by Dr. Bob, and you are a better person than I for being able to ignore it.
Shar
> I will add just two things:
>
> 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power. I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness. And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history. If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
>
> 2. The post by Sanzio is *very* indicative of the posts made on the unmoderated newsgroups (alt.support.depression, alt.support.depression.medication, and alt.support.depression.manic) which are made solely to stir things up and cause trouble. Those newsgroups are TOTALLY USELESS because of all of the flaming & spamming. That is why I moved to this group, and have recommended it to many others.
>
> Dr. Bob, I will not argue with your decision, but I kindly ask you to visit the aforementioned newsgroups for an example of just how messed up things get when there is no moderation. I feel you provide just the right amount of moderation, but I often disagree with where it is placed.
>
> And finally, I ask of all Psycho Babble readers: If a post looks like it was made solely to stir things up, IGNORE IT and email it to Dr. Bob so he can remove it. By not giving in, they will not return. Be PROactive, not REactive.
>
> Ted
>
> PS: How do you know Sanzio isn't present under a different name? There is no way to find out.... I have known people to stir things up with one username and then reply with another. (Would that be multiple personality disorder?)
>
>
> > I agree also, but isn't it interesting that 'Sanzio' hasn't posted a follow-up? Maybe he/she just wanted to stir things up...
Posted by ShelliR on March 14, 2001, at 20:00:38
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Ted, posted by Shar on March 14, 2001, at 19:05:36
Do you think that practicing on the board to ignore really ignorant or antaginizing posts could be related to a good thing to learn "in real life"?
There is no way to change such a person, why try?
I think it would save one a lot of aggrevation in life (keep one more focused on good stuff).A few months ago a guy said a really bigoted statement to me. Instead of arguing with him (because I knew it wasn't going to help), I asked him to please never mention such things around me again. So I didn't really ignore him, but I saved myself a lot of energy. He wasn't going to change no matter what I said. The best I could do was control it around me. If I start to read an off-the-wall post, I don't even finish it.
I have enough relationship problems with the people that I like!
Just a thought. Shelli
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Greg on March 14, 2001, at 11:36:20
> I think by the fact that this person makes no follow-ups to his/her original post makes eveyone realize that this was just yet another "hit and run" post designed to inflame the masses.
Well, that would be one theory. Another might be that they didn't feel very welcome and therefore didn't stay...
> I must admit that the post made me angry as well. To insinuate that treating depression is so simplistic as to simply get up in the morning and brush your teeth leads me to believe that this person is sadly uninformed.
OK, but then the question is, how to respond to someone who's sadly uninformed?
--------
> 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power. I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness. And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history. If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
I think especially when it comes to religion it would help here to lean over backwards to be tolerant of the views of others...
> 2. ... I kindly ask you to visit the aforementioned newsgroups for an example of just how messed up things get when there is no moderation. I feel you provide just the right amount of moderation, but I often disagree with where it is placed.
I think I already have an idea of how messed up things can get when there's not enough moderation! The right amount, the right place, well, batting .500 isn't too bad. :-)
> PS: How do you know Sanzio isn't present under a different name? There is no way to find out.... I have known people to stir things up with one username and then reply with another. (Would that be multiple personality disorder?)
In fact, there might be some ways. :-) If a person can participate in a civil way under a different name, I think that's probably fine. And might or might not indicate "dissociative identity disorder".
--------
> The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...
--------
> There is no way to change such a person, why try?
Now I'm not suggesting that anyone in fact try, but it's hard to be sure how much someone can change. But if you're going to try, you want to pick an approach that has a decent chance of working, right? :-)
Bob
Posted by Chris A. on March 15, 2001, at 0:43:51
In reply to What DOES one do?, posted by Shar on March 12, 2001, at 22:12:54
Posted by Ted on March 15, 2001, at 11:56:39
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Ted, posted by Shar on March 14, 2001, at 19:05:36
Shar,
ROFLMAO! :-)
ted
> OMG! What if YOU are Sanzio?!? 8-)
Posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 3:32:19
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
Bob Wrote:
> > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...
> > > > > >
It's maybe kind of Eastern unless you're the one who's been traumatized, don't you think? If you can put yourself in the shoes of a traumatized individual, that is. (Let's see, that would be terror, anger, sadness, shame...hmmmm, well, the brushing teeth etc. still seems pretty insulting to me.)You're obviously, also, a better person than I, Dr. Bob---but, then, we expect you to be!!!
Shar
Posted by JahL on March 16, 2001, at 10:14:08
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 14, 2001, at 21:18:53
> > 1. The post by Sanzio is insulting to my religion. I am an atheist (really), and I neither believe there is a god nor that if there is, it has any power. I cannot understand why any god would destroy peoples' lives with any mental illness. And gods and their worship is the single greatest cause of death in the world through battles predating history. If god is the creator of these diseases, I will worship satan -- at least he has fun!
> I think especially when it comes to religion it would help here to lean over backwards to be tolerant of the views of others...Dr Bob. How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
Besides, pandering to illogical religious musings justs encourages them. As Ted suggests, organised religion has few redeeming qualities & the world wld be a better place w/o it.
> > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
>
> Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...So because there's some pseudo-cultural feel to Sanzio's comments, they are credible? Political correctness (urgh!)?
Mass-suicide, advocated & practised by a number of Japanese religious sects, also seems also to be kinda Eastern...Respectfully,
Jah.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 3:32:19
> > > The sun is shining. It is a new day. Ask yourself ho can I process my feelings today. I believe that feeling Traumatized is a composite of unaddressed feelings. Fear anger resentment in collision. How can I clear and transform theses negative feelings so that I have room for joy. We can process our Trauma in several ways. 1.Talk to a friend 2. Keep a journal write your Trauma out 3. Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth. Move do not give in to the Trauma. 4. Pray and ask the God of your understanding to remove the fear, the anger, the resentment. Believe it or not God will remove the Trauma. 5. Do not be selfish and self centered today. Ask what can I do for someone else today? Then do it.
> >
> > Actually, I could imagine someone having the above point of view. Seriously. It's maybe kind of Eastern...
>
> It's maybe kind of Eastern unless you're the one who's been traumatized, don't you think? If you can put yourself in the shoes of a traumatized individual, that is. (... the brushing teeth etc. still seems pretty insulting to me.)To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything. One still should have a life. "Have a life" = "Get up out that bed > Exercise. Clean the house. Brush your teeth."
The prayer business is also kind of 12-step, as in:
1. We admitted we were powerless over xxx - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
http://www.aa.org/english/E_Pamphlets/P-2_d1.htm#recovery
--------
> How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.
> Political correctness (urgh!)?
Just because something's politically correct doesn't mean it's wrong. :-)
Bob
Posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
> To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
......To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything, and if thought or mundane activity could change it so easily, I'm pretty sure none of us would be Traumatized, Depressed, whatever. Were it a Choice (as in taking a drink is a choice), I'm pretty sure very few people would choose it.
In my experience, depression colors every sense, dampens every emotion, permeates every part of life; depression can feel like a 1,000 pound weight that ensnares me like a sticky spider web; it is on all of me. Now, I guess I could regurgitate words to the effect that depression is not everything, and it still would be in my every pore and thought-byte and nano-emotion. It still would IN FACT be everything.
That's one reason it is so hard to deal with depression. It doesn't LOOK that bad, all another person sees is someone who won't get out of bed. All the boss sees is someone who is not as productive. All the preacher sees is someone who doesn't show up at church so much anymore. It looks dang normal from the outside.
It SEEMS like it should respond to a little force of will--not accepting it, the depressed person shows up for teeth brushing and housecleaning and selfsacrifice bound and determined that the thing eating their brain out won't get THEM down! Because, it's not ev.........well, really we know it is.
The best that could be said of the "it's not everything" school of thought is that the people AROUND the depressed person would probably be a LOT more comfortable to see the depressed person up and about, with renewed "vigor" and determination. Then they (people around the depressed person) do not have to deal with any of the other ick that the depressed person carries inside of him-or-herself.
Shar
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 9:50:32
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 16, 2001, at 23:05:20
> > How can leaning over backwards to accommodate irrational systems of thinking ever be helpful? Especially on an information-based site such as this, which depends upon the quality of its postings for its credibility?
> This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.Fair point. But which takes precedence, information or support? When someone posts irresponsible advice (ie give up yr drugs, pray to god), surely this should be challenged, & not 'tolerated'. I actually thought I *was* being (admittedly obliquely) supportive of people in general (just not Sanzio) by pointing out that no-one is to blame for their predicament; no-one is being punished by a higher power. It is the responsibility of the individual to get better (a view you yrself have previously endorsed). To invest yr faith in a god (to get well) is an abnegation of this responsibility.
And I didn't 'see' any 'other' as irrational-I merely pointed out that *organised religions* defy rationale (& to argue with that would itself be irrational-but I'm *not* accusing anyone:-))
> > Political correctness (urgh!)?
> Just because something's politically correct doesn't mean it's wrong. :-)No but I'm naturally mistrustful of p. correctness. It may be a great concept (respect for all), but in practice is all too often hijacked & manipulated by powerful lobby groups, who serve to debase its currency.
I could give some great eg.s but would surely offend. So I won't.FWIW tho', I think (give or take the odd "Please be civil") you've got the moderation here just about spot-on.
J.
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 10:11:21
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
> > To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
>
> ......To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything, and if thought or mundane activity could change it so easily, I'm pretty sure none of us would be Traumatized, Depressed, whatever. Were it a Choice (as in taking a drink is a choice), I'm pretty sure very few people would choose it.
>
> In my experience, depression colors every sense, dampens every emotion, permeates every part of life; depression can feel like a 1,000 pound weight that ensnares me like a sticky spider web; it is on all of me. Now, I guess I could regurgitate words to the effect that depression is not everything, and it still would be in my every pore and thought-byte and nano-emotion. It still would IN FACT be everything.
>
> That's one reason it is so hard to deal with depression. It doesn't LOOK that bad, all another person sees is someone who won't get out of bed. All the boss sees is someone who is not as productive. All the preacher sees is someone who doesn't show up at church so much anymore. It looks dang normal from the outside.
>
> It SEEMS like it should respond to a little force of will--not accepting it, the depressed person shows up for teeth brushing and housecleaning and selfsacrifice bound and determined that the thing eating their brain out won't get THEM down! Because, it's not ev.........well, really we know it is.
>
> The best that could be said of the "it's not everything" school of thought is that the people AROUND the depressed person would probably be a LOT more comfortable to see the depressed person up and about, with renewed "vigor" and determination. Then they (people around the depressed person) do not have to deal with any of the other ick that the depressed person carries inside of him-or-herself.
>
> SharExactly. Which part of this post do psychiatrists & especially psychotherapists not understand?
I have done the sensible thing & 'surrendered' to the 'Trauma'. I know when I've met my match.
If the meaning of life is the attainment of contentment/fulfillment etc (which I guess it is) then anhedonia surely deprives life of all meaning (in which case the trauma *is* everything).
I will rejoin the human race when my meds start working...
J.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 15:35:34
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 16, 2001, at 23:54:22
> > To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
>
> To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything...I think Pat had a good idea, which is to shift this aspect of this thread to PSB:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010209/msgs/5149.html
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:04:17
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 9:50:32
> > This site is based on not only information, but also support. Seeing others as irrational usually isn't supportive, while tolerance usually is.
>
> Fair point. But which takes precedence, information or support?Great question! It depends? :-)
> When someone posts irresponsible advice (ie give up yr drugs, pray to god), surely this should be challenged, & not 'tolerated'.
Well, I don't know. It's not necessarily a bad thing to consider whether the drugs you're on are in fact helping you. And many people are helped by prayer. Maybe more than by drugs?
> I actually thought I *was* being ... supportive ... by pointing out that no-one is to blame for their predicament; no-one is being punished by a higher power.
OK, that's supportive. But was that on this thread?
> It is the responsibility of the individual to get better (a view you yrself have previously endorsed). To invest yr faith in a god (to get well) is an abnegation of this responsibility.
I understand what you're saying, but that's black-and-white and not very tolerant -- or supportive -- of alternative perspectives.
> And I didn't 'see' any 'other' as irrational-I merely pointed out that *organised religions* defy rationale (& to argue with that would itself be irrational-but I'm *not* accusing anyone:-))
It's a fine line, organized religions vs. the people who belong to them. And rationality isn't everything, but "irrational" still has negative connotations.
> FWIW tho', I think (give or take the odd "Please be civil") you've got the moderation here just about spot-on.
Thanks. :-) But keep letting me know what you think, no one's perfect...
Bob
Posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 18:08:40
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:04:17
> >It's not necessarily a bad thing to consider whether the drugs you're on are in fact helping you. And many people are helped by prayer. Maybe more than by drugs?
I can't believe you wld say such a thing! In fact I'm going to pretend you didn't so that I might maintain my fairly idealistic perception of you:-)
I would be interested to discover how precisely you think prayer might help people (ie placebo vs. divine intervention-if it's the latter then I bet you love my previous posts!).
IMO there are (generally speaking) 3 reasons an individual might not be helped by drugs;
1/ Their disorder has no biological origin.
2/ They are prescribed the 'wrong' drug (happens more often than not).
3/ There has not yet been invented a drug that addresses their specific aetiology.In 1/ & 2/-don't prescribe (consider therapy), & represcribe.
In the case of 3/. the inadequacies of medicine shld not be cause to clutch @ straws & offer false hope. The individual must accept that medicine is not as advanced as they want/need it to be. That's life.
> >I understand what you're saying, but that's [calling religion irrational] black-and-white and not very tolerant -- or supportive -- of alternative perspectives.
Sure, my standpoint is pretty polarised, but years of society ramming religion down my throat has nurtured a healthy contempt! Besides I'd happily keep my views to myself if others didn't insist on bringing 'god' up;-)
Maybe I'll tone down the way I express my thoughts tho'...
J.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2001, at 23:51:34
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by JahL on March 17, 2001, at 18:08:40
> I would be interested to discover how precisely you think prayer might help people (ie placebo vs. divine intervention...).
Great question! Maybe there are other options besides those two?
> Sure, my standpoint is pretty polarised, but years of society ramming religion down my throat has nurtured a healthy contempt!
>
> Maybe I'll tone down the way I express my thoughts tho'...Good, you wouldn't want to end up ramming something down someone else's throat, right? :-)
Bob
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