![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 16:41:04
It is unfortunate that Hsuing continues to represent himself as an arbiter of civility. Hsuing says abstractly that the board cannot be all things to all people, yet he frequently accuses members of the public, who he openly and indiscriminately invites to his board, of incivility. The message is that the board is not for people who are uncivilized, and that his status qualifies him for the role of arbitrating who is civilized and who is not. While his ever expanding definition of civility labels anyone whose analysis can be construed as “accusatory” as uncivil, he commits the same supposed offense, by labeling as uncivil support and education regarding ideas he dislikes.
Civilizations have adopted all manners of standards by which either dominant or counter-cultural sectors define civility. The dominant Western standard of civility was hammered into shape during millennia in which civility was defined as compliance with Roman ideals and mythology. Opposition to the “civil” ideal was eradicated by torture and mass murder. Our current versions of history are largely the propaganda of the victors of the Roman inquisition, and our current social philosophies cannot be viewed as detached standards that were not primarily shaped by the threats that controled Western thought for 2000 years. The annual sale worldwide of hundreds of thousands of electric shock prod devices for police use, and the widespread distribution of other technologies – including psychotropic medications – for political control is evidence that our converging global culture is not that of a civil society but rather that of a society of forced compliance.
Pullmarine’s analysis might be 100 percent accurate. Even the predominant Western religion of our time asserts that all have sinned and that the wages of sin is death. To accuse people of incivility for paraphrasing this idea is nothing but bald arrogance born of the mental insulation afforded by an academic community.
Hsuing might choose to bar from his board certain kinds of dialogue. But by his own admission, his standard of civility is arbitrary and subjective. To accuse participants in his openly published board of being uncivilized because they do not anticipate and comply with his personal and arbitrary standard of civility is in itself uncivil and offensive to an open and free society.
Perhaps those who find merit in this board underestimate the harm caused by writers who label as ill others whose countenance they dislike and who label as uncivilized those whose ideas and form of written expression they dislike. As Hsuing continues to direct emotion-laden dialogue among an ever-changing world wide group of strangers, within the arbitrary boundaries of his self-styled definition of civility, the potential of a Werther Effect event among the often disturbed people attracted to this site should be apparent to Hsuing’s professional peers.
Further, a recent $675,000 libel judgement against a doctor who posted anonymously at another medical bulletin board should serve as a warning here, in the wake of a recent libelous posting that claimed otherwise credible research was a hoax. Curiously, in that particular thread, Hsuing never intervened to direct to the “admin” board postings by those who complained about the damaged publisher’s action to defend their product.
I suggest that Hsuing install a portal software for his board, to pass beyond which a person must agree, not to a vague and inaccurate standard of civility, support and education, but rather to whatever arbitrary rules Hsuing chooses to impose, and by which, without such an agreement, no person may read the archives or contribute to the restricted dialogue. In other words, please take this conversation private so unsuspecting visitors will not become entangled in Hsuing’s hurtful imposition of his personal values.
Posted by Cam W. on December 10, 2000, at 19:15:17
In reply to Hard hearted labeling , posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 16:41:04
Concerned - If you don't like the rules, why are you here? This is not a public forum for discussing free speech. This is a privately owned forum for exchanging current ideas in psychiatry, see how the treatments are working in the real world, and to talk to like-minded individuals in a pleasant manner. Disagreements do occur, but are debated in an air of mutual respect. Frequent contributors to this board leave the name calling and crap on the elementary school playground where they belong, not here. No one forced you to come here, but others seem to want to impose their will and rules. Tell me, is THAT fair. By comparing this board to historical events is silly. This board is not going to change world view or the future. I think (IMHO) that proselytizing one's views of the human condition is out of place here.
Lighten up, join the group and contribute something to help your fellow man. How were the people who were banned from this site helping others?
Maybe there is a difference between you and me. You were invited to this board (how?); I just found it by surfing. Either join us and play like an adult or please leave us to play and interact amongst ourselves.
Sincerely - Cam
P.S. I did have many snide remarks and rude slams that I editted out in the final version of this text, out of consideration for the civility that this board demands.
Posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 20:18:40
In reply to Hard hearted labeling , posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 16:41:04
No matter how clearly the point is made, some regular users of the site will no doubt defend the status quo and respond with hostility.
The concerns expressed were that, in a society where cultural values have been imposed, more broad and diverse sets of standards still survive. People who embrace civil standards apart from the imposed standard are hurt by those of the dominant culture who chronically refer to all other standards as uncivilized.
In its present configuration, the board is as open a publication as a magazine on a news stand. My suggestion is for portal software that will explain that a narrow, personal and subjective standard is in force here. Such a software might help to prevent a Werther Effect event triggered by a moderator's repeated imposition of his personal values in the name of civility. The concern has little to do with my preferences but rather develops from witnessing frequent and repeated exclusion of people who attempt to participate in the discussion.
Posted by Cam W. on December 10, 2000, at 21:45:42
In reply to so unsuspecting visitors will not become entangled, posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 20:18:40
Concerned - Could it be that the regular users have witnessed many different types of unsolicited disruptions that are counterproductive to learning, treatment and therapy. Rather, these regular users, trusting in the validity of scientific method originally laid down by Francis Bacon at beginning of the 17th century, would rather further science and their own knowledge base with constructive rather than destructive rapport. This board is not the same as, say Time magazine, which needs stories that provoke discussion to sell copies. Here, profit is not paramount.
Perhaps a "Letter to the Moderator" section on this board may be in order, for those who question this board's methods of inclusion and rules of civility. I believe that this function is already present. Anyone can e-mail Dr.Bob and present their case.
As for this portal software. Isn't the program it uses a construct of the person who developed the program resulting in the same biases that this board are being accused of?
We may have narrow, personal and subjective standards on this board, but we also have the latest in cutting edge research and therapy being discussed. I, for one, would rather have the wheat than the chaff. If it means blocking disruptive, anonymous elements who are trying to propulgate personal agendas at the expense that they may eventually say something relavant to a topic, then that is a risk that I, personally, am willing to take.
Again, this is a mental health help board, not a civil libertarian soapbox. Unsuspecting visitors may leave any time they choose, if they fell that this site is not what they want it to be.
- Cam
Posted by shar on December 10, 2000, at 22:52:26
In reply to Re: so unsuspecting visitors will not become entangled » concerned, posted by Cam W. on December 10, 2000, at 21:45:42
If an innocent bystander somehow landed in one of the PB boards, it would not take long to figure out what the topics are. Then, if not interested, they could leave.
If people come to the PB boards to cause disruption, and if they are not civil, I am fine with their being booted. The standard of civility is broad enough here that one has to make a point of engaging in rude, hostile, unfriendly, aggressive action in order to get blocked.
People don't get booted for their opinions, for disagreeing, for using imperfect grammar, for expressing anger about something. That can all be done with civility.
I'm for the status quo. I think the most annoying part of the disruptors is the length of some of their posts, how they can go on and on about their own ideas, there is a sense that they have so much of great value to say even though much of it is repetitive, like loving to hear the sound of their own voice. I can rarely get beyond the first couple of paragraphs before I lose interest.
Shar
Posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 23:28:13
In reply to Doesn't take long to figure out these boards, posted by shar on December 10, 2000, at 22:52:26
If everyone excluded from this discussion were excluded for their own transgressions, and not because the moderator applies varying standards depending on the current atmosphere of the board, perhaps there would be no need to advise caution.
My advice is not that any standard should be applied other than the current arbitrary personal standard of the moderator. Caution is advised because no one here can insure that the arbitrary standard in use will not trigger excluded individuals to cause harm to themselves or others. Perceived exclusion, depression and psychopharmaceuticals have repeatedly been part of a profile that accompanied harmful behavior.
A portal software such as is in use at other similar sites might help to prevent such harm. Where the current atmosphere here has repeatedly been cited as cliquish, such software could that at the outset establish boundaries and identify the guidelines by which boundaries are established. Such as system would help to avoid setting up expectations, which, when not met, might contribute to harm.
Posted by Cam W. on December 11, 2000, at 7:07:37
In reply to Doesn't take long for some; others never do, posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 23:28:13
Concerned - So, what you are saying is let back "Mr.Nazi-guy", "Mr.Don't try to Help Me", or "Mr.Do it MY Way or I'll Disrupt Every Posting and E-mail People Privately, Telling Them that Their Daughter Was Killed in a Marked Crosswalk Because You Decided to Ruin the Ozone by Taking Your Family on a Trip to Disney World", because they may harm themselves or others? Well, you got that half right. My wife is still having problems because of some jerk. He left enough harm in our family by being allowed to stay at this site. Now I cannot post my e-mail address, nor can I open any e-mails from unknown people, for fear that someone will try to lash out a my family. The people here who have responded with vitriol to someone who had since been banned from this board were provoked into doing so by the person who was susequently banned. Many of us on this board have mental health issues and are easily hurt by those who enjoy being hurtful.
Your software would not prevent that. How do you propose that this software work. Other sites that use it still have problems. The software is developed by a person, thus the introduction of developer bias must enter into the program. I say a human being, reacting in real time, using years of professional judgement, should know how people are to act in a group situation. Hell, so does my 5 year old when in kindergarden. This is hardly using varying standards; or if varying standards are used, they are used to fit the situation. I'd like to see the software you mention be that sensitive. Actually, there are implicit civility guidelines in place, that should be obvious to everyone:
•"Treat any other person on this board, with whom you are interacting, with the same (or even more) respect and dignity that you would expect from them."•
As for a clique like atmosphere; how did any of us get here and stay here. We weren't invited. We joined the stream of thought and contributed to the discussion in a give and take manner. How would you have it? A free-for-all playground shouting match? Come on, name one person who was barred from posting on this site who did not go beyond the bounds of respectful human interaction.
Perchance you have been barred from posting here, came back through a different portal, and have a personal vendetta against this board. I have heard nothing of any substance to back your claim of people getting hurt by not being allowed to post at this site. Even when barred, one can still read and learn from the intelligent and thoughtful posters of this board. Please, give an example of one person being hurt by being blocked from posting at this site (esp. someone who has not hurt someone else first).
I believe that by allowing these disruptive elements to remain, more innocent people will be harmed by the actions of a disruptive element being allowed to stay. Besides, this room is not a democracy, for any of us. Any of us who step over the line of common decency will be blocked. This is a private website. It is owned by Dr.Bob and the University of Chicago. Anyone can read the posts; anyone who uses common sense and is civil can post.
Sincerely waiting for your rebuttal - Cam.
Posted by Leeza on December 11, 2000, at 9:25:42
In reply to Hard hearted labeling , posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 16:41:04
I presume this thread is regarding the strange and completely Irrellavent !! postings that went missing yesterday.
Please !! I've bookmarked Crinklebender some ranting grounds to save Dr Bob alleviating the stuck browser of the Psychotically insane !! . I hope they allow him fertile ground to plant such a range of styles with open grace.http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/3493/geobook.html
http://www.brainflower.com/archive.html
http://www.fezine.com/POETRY.HTMAt the risk of further deletion myself I thought this worthy of bringing a lighter note to these proceedings. It appears word of our favourite doctor has spread to Health-centre.com.
Just what is going through this persons head will probaly be an eternal mystery. Is this really the product of an oily brain are these the fruits of a strangely bright but inprobable imagination ?
LOLLeeza
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This news just in. In a landmark trial, replenished server files from a two year restoration project revealed a cover up that looks like causing headaches for famous internet celebrity Bobby Hsiung. Dr Bob as he is known to followers of renowned chatline Psychobabble appeared before online juries having breached three counts of handle censorship. It looks like the good doctor will have to sit tight to see if the news has any affect on share prices. Meanwhile speculators pronounced Crinklebender a possible number two candidate to hold the Bboard Weblover award following vindication of no less than 25 counts of disruption. Online brain mapping revealed that the twelve vital neurons Crinklebender lost during censorship resulted in a thirty three second Psyche trauma requiring costly fish oil treatment.
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Reuters Neurofuzzy search armies cracked Crinklebenders offline home location today.
Research analaysts said that the new Quantum Dataminer represented the secret fullfillment of many online users. "We now have a policing tool with reliability", said an agency spokeswoman. Meanwhile Crinklebenders ratings plummeted following the news of this unwanted break. Reuters caught up with Crinklebender for an Offline exclusive at his beachside server in Ohio. More on that from our Correspondant Arrie Velant.
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AV Do you really bear no grudge to Dr Hsuing in the light of your recent Psyche trauma ?
CB Bobbies a really nice man. He did'nt understand my vision at first, but I soon brought him round to my great way of looking at things. At first he kept deleting my files. He explained to me that he was follwing a straight path and I was detracting from that. I bear the man no grudge whatsoever. My browser got stuck on his site. The rough experience bore unexpected fruit.
AV Many people have defined you as a thinking mans Schizophrenic. Was that what you set out to be ?
CB I don't have much time for Psycharmacy these days. I prefer to hide out in my Render farm with ratings and Neurons, although I can't bring myself to use them.
AV Talking of site ratings it appears you have become somewhat of a darling with Brain mapping lobbies. How do you feel about the implications on your future ?
CB I feel very lucky in some respects to have the credit I deserve. I've been picked out as being a bit of a problem to relate to. That's because I take everything I can bring to bear on helping people streamline their process first time. Too many Scientists cringe from the raw power of creative complexity. I'm providing a role model to promote Psychotism the pride of place it deserves.
AV We've heard that you tried to infiltrate the Genetic counselling server with your new language processing agents.
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At this point Crinklebenders carrier tone goes offline. A search reveals a Bug profiling point radiator looped in self elimination. Crinklebender returns later with a statement that he will finish the interview providing we stick to preview posts.
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AV Your new EXE file is ready for download as we talk. Could you tell us about the touch mapping.
CB Yes. Its a rapid self execution Neuro fuzz army with a V5 Cortex Buster @ and Hi res Transmitter profiling. I've programmed it from recent Brain scans to let users have a full Crinklebender experience. The Touch mapping is something I thought during my first reality break. I use it to augment the emotionally intense aspects of hightened Erotica Per Se. With all these VR providers using Celexa to gloss over shallow programming I reckon this a real treat.AV A good thing for online users then.
CB Yes, but I recommend three extras capsules of fish oil over normal medications.
AV Thank you very much Crinklebender.#
CB No, thank you very much.
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The Crinklebender site opens today at 1600 Internet time. WWW.Crinkebender.com
Fish oil will be availibe from Ellie at WWW.IreallyamEllie.co.uk
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Posted by shar on December 11, 2000, at 12:18:41
In reply to Re: Hard hearted labeling lighten up , posted by Leeza on December 11, 2000, at 9:25:42
I think someone is a sore loser or something. The rant following Leeza's post was yet another I couldn't make it through; so redundant. Maybe someone didn't get to stir things up as much as they wanted before they were booted. Or didn't get to be the center of attention enough. Thus, the dragging PB through the mud elsewhere.
I am very glad that other sites have been posted by Leeza that may be much more pertinent for the dissatisfied clique to visit.
Oh--and I find what was sent to Cam's family after the death of his daughter to be completely and entirely cruel and sadistic; a horrifying example of what gutless cowards will do when they are sure they are anonymous and won't have to be accountable for their actions.
Shar
Posted by Noa on December 11, 2000, at 17:13:37
In reply to Doesn't take long for some; others never do, posted by concerned on December 10, 2000, at 23:28:13
> Caution is advised because no one here can insure that the arbitrary standard in use will not trigger excluded individuals to cause harm to themselves or others.
I believe this is addressed in the intro--that we are here at our own risk and that we should always get help the bricks and mortar way, not seeing this as a substitute. I think also that the intro does warn that a standard of civility is enforced and that users can be blocked. Also, I think it is a stretch to imply that enforcement of board rules can be "blamed" for decisions a person might make about their own or others' safety. Anything that happens on the internet could then be called into question as possible triggers for subsequent behavior.
Another thing to keep in mind is that a person is not necessarily blocked forever. We have people here who were blocked but came back after a few months and have been around uneventfully for longer, now, than they were gone. It is not, evidently, the person that is the problem, but how they choose to interact.
Perhaps a portal is worth considering to emphasize the implicit agreement already in place. But the agreement is there even if there is no portal.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2000, at 15:50:13
In reply to Re: Doesn't take long for some; others never do » concerned, posted by Noa on December 11, 2000, at 17:13:37
OK concerned, if you're not happy with the way Dr Bob regulates this board, why not take the time to set up your won one, and then regulate as YOU see fit. This is Dr Bobs board, and as far as I am concerned, it is up to him how to moderate as he see's fit. He gives us the time, and he gives us this board. No one makes him do this.
Good bye
Nikki
Posted by stjames on December 12, 2000, at 17:53:06
In reply to Re: Hard hearted labeling lighten up , posted by Leeza on December 11, 2000, at 9:25:42
Huh ? What are you talking about ?
james
This is the end of the thread.
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