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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lifelover on October 2, 2012, at 1:34:37
Hey guys just wondering online some say yes others say no. All in all it works good for me as an anti depressant and keeps my mood stable and somewhat good. I have something else that concerns me though. I struggle with social phobia and the nardil helps that tremendously should i worry about the lith potentially dampening some of the effects ?
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 7:55:26
In reply to is lithium a dopamine antiagonist, posted by Lifelover on October 2, 2012, at 1:34:37
> Hey guys just wondering online some say yes others say no. All in all it works good for me as an anti depressant and keeps my mood stable and somewhat good. I have something else that concerns me though. I struggle with social phobia and the nardil helps that tremendously should i worry about the lith potentially dampening some of the effects ?
How much lithium are you taking?
Lithium does not bind to the dopamine receptor and does not block it.
Lithium shouldn't affect the antidepressant and pro-social effects of Nardil. I would expect, at worst, some degree of passivity, apathy, or reduction in creative energies. If these things haven't occurred already, I wouldn't expect them to emerge at this point. These side effects seem to be dosage-dependent, though.
Adding lithium to Parnate has had an antidepressant effect for me. This was a favorite combination treatment of doctors before the SSRIs came out. I haven't tried lithium with Nardil.
Lithium can act as an antimanic and antidepressant at the same time.
Lithium does lots of different things. It might act as a dampener to dopamine overactivity by inhibiting protein kinase-C (PKC) and thus limiting the function of G-protein coupled receptors and downstream second messenger events. The net effect of this inhibition is to reduce the rate of propagation of neuronal action potentials (nerve firing). PKC activity is significantly increased in mania. Lithium may exert its antimanic effects by reducing it. However, lithium also promotes serotonin release. This effect may be responsible for increased dopamine activity in the PFC and thus produce an antidepressant response. Lithium stimulates the production of bcl-2, BDNF while inhibiting some of the actions of NGF. These actions help to produce neuroprotective (prevents neural damage and death) and neurotrophic (promotes neural growth) effects.
All of this goes to show how complex the brain is and how varied are the many effects of lithium. I can therefore state with absolute certainty that I am uncertain as to how you as an individual would react to lithium in combination with Nardil. You may have no better choice than to just try it. It is possible that lithium may not protect you from Nardil-induced mania should that occur. If lithium is problematic or ineffective, you can always try a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Trileptal, or an atypical antipsychotic like Zyprexa, Abilify, or Latuda. There are others.
- Scott
Posted by phillipa on October 2, 2012, at 10:21:31
In reply to Re: is lithium a dopamine antiagonist » Lifelover, posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 7:55:26
I don't understand if nardil is used for anxiety & depression why would it cause a mania? I know it takes a good two weeks to kick in for mania. Since it's also available in a different form couldn't one take it as isn't it oratate to protect ones brain without taking the prescription lithium? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 13:38:04
In reply to Re: is lithium a dopamine antiagonist » SLS, posted by phillipa on October 2, 2012, at 10:21:31
> I don't understand if nardil is used for anxiety & depression why would it cause a mania? I know it takes a good two weeks to kick in for mania. Since it's also available in a different form couldn't one take it as isn't it oratate to protect ones brain without taking the prescription lithium? Phillipa
Nardil is effective in treating both depression and anxiety, as are some of the SSRIs and SNRIs.
There is virtually no standard antidepressant that does not have the ability to induce mania in susceptible individuals. Usually, it occurs as a paroxysmal "switch". However, it is not always an immediate reaction. It can be latent in its onset and gradual in its emergence.
For me, lithium at dosages of 1200 - 1500 mg/day is pretty much worthless as a treatment for mania. Lamictal 300 mg/day is ineffective as a prophylactic against Nardil-induced mania. I find that Depakote and Zyprexa are much better for me. However, my type of bipolar disorder is atypical. Lithium monotherapy seems to work best for bipolar I disorder.
- Scott
Posted by Lifelover on October 2, 2012, at 18:03:44
In reply to Re: is lithium a dopamine antiagonist » Lifelover, posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 7:55:26
Thanks for the reply sls. I am currently on1200mg which many say is high, but the reason for this is because my lith level is only .6 which from what i understand is just touching the lower end of the theraputic spectrum. Why is this sls? I am actually on 30mg of nardil now and have ben for a while now.Def notice an improvment but not yet where I want to be yet. I attribute this mainly to the nardil dose not being high enough yet. Last time i was on nardil i was at 90mg and it was great. I was also on invega which is a dopamine antiagonist from what i understand but it did not limit the effects in any way. Both lith and invega have ben helpful to me so i do not want to come off them. I was just a little concerned because from what i understand dopamine is important for social functioning. Any more insight would be appreciate sls. Also the 1st time i was on nardil I wasnt on lith.
Posted by phidippus on October 2, 2012, at 18:32:21
In reply to is lithium a dopamine antiagonist, posted by Lifelover on October 2, 2012, at 1:34:37
Lithium antagonizes dopamine-dependent behaviors mediated by an AKT/glycogen synthase kinase 3 signaling cascade.
>should i worry about the lith potentially dampening some of the effects ?
It shouldn't be dampening the effects of the Nardil.
Eric
Posted by 4WD on October 6, 2012, at 12:04:28
In reply to Re: is lithium a dopamine antiagonist » Lifelover, posted by SLS on October 2, 2012, at 7:55:26
I'm not sure this us equally valid for Nardil but lithium is very highly recommended as adjunctive therapy with Parnate. I took Nardil for years without podium and now Parnate without lithium. But after some of what I've been reading, I think I will ask my doc to augment my Parnate if necessary with either lithium, a norepinephrine drug or Small dose of dexedrine, in order if preference.
One special thing for you. After I had been on Nardil a while and then declined again some , he suggested adding a very small dose of Geodon- just one 20mg cap h.s. It has so many actions at so many sites that I doubt anyone really knows what the beneficial result stems from primarily, but Wiki has a good article in it. If you don't care for lithium or don't want all the blood tests for levels, give Geodon a try.
For me, after just a dayfirst or two at most & the lowesst dose, I woke up one morning the first week and was in sudden, total remission. Maybe a little anxiety (panic attacks some days instead if several a day) still there but I experienced something called "motivation" that I hadn't felt since childhood, honesty. Highly increased energy and interest in life. It did require frequent dosages upward and eventually pooped out except for the anxiety helpn . I still take it and that period during the first year on it I was truly, actually, ,naturally, happy and well.
Posted by Sheilac on October 9, 2012, at 16:10:00
In reply to Re: is lithium a dopamine antiagonist, posted by 4WD on October 6, 2012, at 12:04:28
I take Trileptal and was thinking of augmenting with low dose Lithium for slight depression. I had also thought about adding low dose Geodon.
I wonder which would be better?
This is the end of the thread.
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