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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
Hi everyone,
I don't have much else to express, other than continued hopelessness and fear over my situation. After withdrawing from Prozac some 8 months ago, I have become completely numb and emotionless, physically numb. I feel separated from my soul. There is no point in being alive. Life feels the same at all times. I have early morning waking, as well.
Everything tells me these are symptoms from having touched that drug, and not just depression. I would give anything to have my normal depression back, and try to treat it through therapy.
From what I've gathered on the boards and reading other folks' posts, it looks like I'm pretty much screwed-- conundrum, mike lynch, crabwalk...I don't see anyone saying this resolves with time, or can heal. It absolutely FEELS permanent. I was miserable when I was depressed, but I was never as convinced that I was totally screwed as I am now. I was human in depression, albeit a miserable one. Now, a total robot.
Has anyone had any success, or know of anyone who has recovered or gotten better from this?
Posted by Phillipa on August 2, 2011, at 17:14:23
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
Sure it's not another depressive episode? Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on August 2, 2011, at 18:38:00
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
I know it feels permanent because I've been in your shoes. But it isn't. There is a plenty of hope.
These are just my opinions, ok? I don't think your situation will ever be resolved with the medications we currently have. I have no doubt there are a few duo-combinations that would have you feeling better. But you know that only in rare cases does that extend to a longterm horizon. Eventually we are back where we started or worse.
If to stay on the medication route, I would suggest a balanced serotonin+norepinephrine approach, along with something that is going to tweek a little bit dopamine and endorphins. That would mean something like zoloft/nortriptyline, milnacipran, milnacipran/ritalin. Be wary of anything that has a heavy role on serotonin or blocking receptors.
Diet is real important. The right foods set the stage for all other good things to happen. Any weakness in the diet area makes it a steeper uphill climb.
Spirituality is real important. I personally suggest the Bible, as in my opinion, there is no other God worthy of the worship I have. I have never seen God work large miracles in my life, but I have experienced dozens or hundreds of small miracles. Each one was a step forward in progress.
For herbs I could suggest a bunch. Some of them would include Rhodiola Rosea, Source Naturals Resveratrol the version they make from Japanese Knotweed not grapes, a trio of herbs for times you need calm and relaxed, and well, I could think of a bunch of good ones but those would be among my first choices.
I think a common mistake is to focus on herbs that specifically deal with your primary complaints. In this case the complaint is heavy anhedonia. So with our limited knowledge I immediately start thinking "dopamine' 'norepinephrine' 'endorphins'. And thus the mention of Rhodiola. But i'm also thinking of the longterm things that will strengthen the entire biology of you against all kinds of stresses and illnesses, which all by itself helps you feel better. Several herbs in mind there, but Japanese Knotweed would be a good floor to build on and does a lot all by itself.
So you got me thinking back in time. I guess it was maybe 4 years ago I was in your shoes. Since then I came to have God in my life and talk to Him daily, my diet is very clean, and a handful of herbs have been very helpful. Time itself can heal you somewhat or significantly, but the plant medicines can dramatically speed it up. Today I can claim I have a wide range of emotion I didn't have before, a purpose in life, and most of the ssri damage is not there any more. So there is hope. Prior to that, I was in the psych ward, had ECT that didn't work, threatened to kill myself, blah blah blah. No doubt, it was a bad place and it lasted a long time. It lasted until as long as it took for me to take charge of my own self rather than a doctor trying to do it, because they really don't know much more than you do and they certainly don't have the time or flexibility to research like can or to experiment like you can.
I have no doubt the prozac did some bizarre changes in the brain. I was on that med for 8 years, and 1 year of paxil before that, followed by some time on zoloft and lexapro too. So believe me, I know the whole ssri thing.
Another thing that needs to be done is to awaken the brain, get those receptors to start sparking like they used to. That means forcibly exposing yourself to situations you know are supposed to be pleasurable, but right now they sure don't feel that way. Ride a roller coaster. Go to rock concerts. If you play an instrument, play a lot or write some songs. If you used to love reading books, read them even if it is hard. The whole point here is to get those random momentary blips of actually feeling something....it WILL happen....and then keep going, because over time those random blips become more frequent until finally one day you realize you actually enjoy something you knew you should enjoy but has not been enjoyable all along. For me that was guitar performing.
Now, when you try these supposedly exciting things, or things you used to love but now it's numb, when you try to do these things you have to go into them knowing that it actually is not going to be fun and it will be a hard forced effort that feels bad. They might even just remind you of how bad you feel and make you want to withdraw even further. That's a trap. We're trying to force the brain. That means more than one or a few moments in time. That means on a regular basis....once a week, twice a week, every night, whatever....you do something to spark the brain. Whatever it is should last a couple hours at least.
After a few months you should start to see momentary random blips of being surprised because you actually felt decent for a few minutes or hours or whatever.
It is a long road. What, for me, 4 years. But in an entire lifetime, think about it, that is not much time. So, not bad.
Anyway, I do think the post-ssri bizarreness that pops up frequently enough to take notice is real, but I also strongly believe it is not permanent. For sure the rules of the game have changed though. Play to win, or, well, I guess we all have to make our decisions.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on August 2, 2011, at 19:46:45
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
Could this just be the return of the symptoms that led you to take Prozac in the 1st place?
Is going back on it an option?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 2, 2011, at 21:31:04
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
> Hi everyone,
>
> I don't have much else to express, other than continued hopelessness and fear over my situation. After withdrawing from Prozac some 8 months ago, I have become completely numb and emotionless, physically numb. I feel separated from my soul. There is no point in being alive. Life feels the same at all times. I have early morning waking, as well.
>
> Everything tells me these are symptoms from having touched that drug, and not just depression. I would give anything to have my normal depression back, and try to treat it through therapy.
>
> From what I've gathered on the boards and reading other folks' posts, it looks like I'm pretty much screwed-- conundrum, mike lynch, crabwalk...I don't see anyone saying this resolves with time, or can heal. It absolutely FEELS permanent. I was miserable when I was depressed, but I was never as convinced that I was totally screwed as I am now. I was human in depression, albeit a miserable one. Now, a total robot.
>
> Has anyone had any success, or know of anyone who has recovered or gotten better from this?
>
>
> ff1133,
You wrote,[...hopelesness and fear...numb..emotionless...separated from my soul...no point in being alive...I ould give anything...total robot...has anyone...].
I know of two ways to overcome your situation. One is by human achievment, the other by divine accomplishment.
There is something that you could take each day. If you would like to hear from my perspective on how you could become a new person and leave all of those things that you described behind you, I would need your permission to post here that.
If you could post here that you agree with the following, then I will have dialog with you to walk you through the Vally of the Shadow of Death that you describe here.. Be advised that:
A. You will need to be an active participant in the thread
B. You will take something each day
C. Birds will be a part of what I will write about
D. This will come from a Jewish perspective
So if you check one of the following, I could know what you want to do
A. I agree with the conditions
B. I do not agree
C. I need to know the following before I agree
Lou>
Posted by morgan miller on August 3, 2011, at 0:47:59
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
I can only suggest taking some supportive supplements, exercising, group therapy, low dose lithium, family, friends(if they are supportive), and more time.
If you had success on Prozac, or any other SSRI, and the only reason for quitting was minor side effects and the fact that you simply wanted to be off meds, than at some point, if you continue to suffer, the only real viable option I see for improvement is getting back on medication. Which is worse, suffering for the rest of your life and staying off medication, or taking a medication with all it's flaws, and feeling much better with the potential to actually live?
Morgan
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2011, at 4:49:29
In reply to Re: Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by morgan miller on August 3, 2011, at 0:47:59
> I can only suggest taking some supportive supplements, exercising, group therapy, low dose lithium, family, friends(if they are supportive), and more time.
>
> If you had success on Prozac, or any other SSRI, and the only reason for quitting was minor side effects and the fact that you simply wanted to be off meds, than at some point, if you continue to suffer, the only real viable option I see for improvement is getting back on medication. Which is worse, suffering for the rest of your life and staying off medication, or taking a medication with all it's flaws, and feeling much better with the potential to actually live?
>
> MorganMorgan,
You wrote,[...the xxxx real viable option...]
I am unsure as to what you are wantimng to mean here. If you could pot answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond acccordingly.
A. Could there be an option unbeknownst to you?
B. What do you want to mean by {real}?
C. Could a person take this drug and die suddenly?
D. Could this drug induce a mind-altered state to have the taker of the drug have suicide thinking increased?
E. Could a person taking the drug be (redacted by respondent)
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2011, at 5:08:13
In reply to Lou's request-ohnleigh » morgan miller, posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2011, at 4:49:29
Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thred, I aam requesting that yiou view thw following video.
Lou
To see this video;
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in;
[Youtube, Borrowed Time-Psychiatric Drug Dangers and Death]
The time is 4 min...there is a pic of a woman...posted on Feb 7, 2008
Posted by freefree1133 on August 3, 2011, at 20:47:08
In reply to Re: Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by bleauberry on August 2, 2011, at 18:38:00
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Bleauberry, I hate to ask any more from you after such an extensive, thoughtful post, but I was wondering if you could describe the state of your mind/brain/body after coming off SSRI's? Are you taking any meds, or was diet, "forcing", and supplements all you took to get things going again? Can you describe your progress? I guess I'm really just interested in your story. Thank you so much for the reply.
To Phillipa, and I guess Bleauberry as well-- I'm not sure that this isn't depression. It very well could be. I know feeling numb, as some people describe, is a symptom of depression. Still, the bizarre nature of of my reality, it's development coinciding directly with my starting the medication and progressing further after withdrawal, as well as my symptoms in no resembling the depression I experienced before medicines, all seem to suggest to me that this is, in fact, the medication.
Before SSRI's, I was a very miserable human being. Obsessive thoughts, an ego that had swollen and burst under it's own expectations so as to keep me feeling perpetually worthless and pathologically judgmental, anger and sadness about the state of the world, especially the environment, etc. Still, I felt human. I had a libido, goals, feelings (mostly negative), and was interested in romantic prospects (though I was mostly concerned with regaining my mental equilibrium, as I knew something was out of wack).
Now, though, I feel nothing. I feel like there is a glass between me in reality. I'm completely apathetic. Anhedonia? It's not that I don't feel pleasure any more, I feel nothing. No motivation, love, hatred, attachment, arousal. I can't feel my surroundings. Physically, too, I feel strange. I don't get hungry, and when I wake up I don't ever feel tired. I just turn on and off like a robot. I don't sleep much, waking up in the middle of the night, but I never feel tired the next day. It's like I've been separated from my unconscious mind and body (which some schools of thought would have you believe are related and the same thing).
I too have had ECT, and tried an MAOI, though at a subtherapeutic dose. They did produce a change, pulling me out of despair and despondency, and normalized my sleep a little more. I had glimmers of emotion that lasted only seconds every now and then during that time.
Is this depression? I would actually like to believe it is. If all you do is use the HAMD to produce a diagnosis, or another objective, technical set of criteria, then by most accounts, yes, I am depressed. If you were to live my subjective experience, though, you might think something else is going on.
Posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2011, at 21:17:24
In reply to Re: Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 3, 2011, at 20:47:08
Freefree I've had no taste and smell for 8 years now and no feeling of being empty or full of food. No indication I have to use the bathroom just do it like a robot when think should. Same old same old daily so I relate in lots of ways. And no I don't feel I'm depressed just waiting for what I don't know. Phillipa
Posted by Chris O on August 6, 2011, at 10:32:27
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
Wow, I, for one, am sorry to hear you are in such a bad state. I cannot believe that what you are experiencing is "permanent." How long, in total, have you taken SSRIs? I have taken them on and off for ten years. When I have stopped, yes, there is a period of "numbness," or withdrawal, sometimes lasting months. But in general, over time, most of these feelings dissipate. Perhaps you've taken SSRIs, or just Prozac, much longer than that, in which case, my experience may not be worth as much. But I'd just like to encourage you to look forward to brighter days. Perhaps a good therapist just to listen to you while you go through this difficult time could ease some of the pain? I know it does for me.
Sincerely,
Chris in Southern California
Posted by Conundrum on August 8, 2011, at 15:15:07
In reply to Feeling absolutely hopeless (Post-SSRI experience), posted by freefree1133 on August 2, 2011, at 15:27:08
Sadly, I've gotten used to it. We're just the unlucky folks who got burned in the name of scientific progress(and making money). The only thing hopeful I can tell you is that you get used to it and then it becomes more tolerable.
> Hi everyone,
>
> I don't have much else to express, other than continued hopelessness and fear over my situation. After withdrawing from Prozac some 8 months ago, I have become completely numb and emotionless, physically numb. I feel separated from my soul. There is no point in being alive. Life feels the same at all times. I have early morning waking, as well.
>
> Everything tells me these are symptoms from having touched that drug, and not just depression. I would give anything to have my normal depression back, and try to treat it through therapy.
>
> From what I've gathered on the boards and reading other folks' posts, it looks like I'm pretty much screwed-- conundrum, mike lynch, crabwalk...I don't see anyone saying this resolves with time, or can heal. It absolutely FEELS permanent. I was miserable when I was depressed, but I was never as convinced that I was totally screwed as I am now. I was human in depression, albeit a miserable one. Now, a total robot.
>
> Has anyone had any success, or know of anyone who has recovered or gotten better from this?
>
>
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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