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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 18:57:34
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
Sissy write with a girl from another country on LDN funny you mention as invited to join a group for LDN I could find the link if you like? She takes it for sjornes another autoimmune disease. Wonder if it helps with all the autoimmune diseases? Love Phillipa
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. I know a patient, mid twenties I guess, who like many of us here has severe depression. The two outstanding areas of his health (as far as i know) are this depression and...severe allergies to a vast assortment of things: cats, pollen, you name it. And he says his mood gets worse on 'bad allergen days.'
Well, don't allergies cause inflammation in various areas of the body--granted, focused on the lungs, nose or wherever peripheral contact is made, but I'm pretty sure I've read that allergens tend to penetrate deep within the body as well. Mightn't some allergens get to the brain, and cause inflammation there? Might not the two outstanding aspects of this case (to an observer), i.e. the depression and his body's tendency to overreact to a wide variety of microscopic foreign bodies, be related? Well, in any case, I'm throwing the thought out there to see if it's useful at all. Severe Environmental allergies>>nervous system inflammation>>caused or exacerbated depression.
I suppose that allergy shots might be a theoretical way of trying to treat such a patient's depression...(based on the doxycycline hypothesis)... since they also suppress the inflammatory reaction.
Just a thought.
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 0:03:58
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
Actually the way alergies work is the body sees it as a toxic agent so the body builds up antibodies against these agents, and they float all through the blood stream, including the brain. When the toxic agent (say peanuts) enters the body it goes into all out attack mode.
Allergies can and do cause depression and you are correct allergy shots do help. I do't see how antibiotics could help, but have been wrong before(but I'm Not} unlike Scott who was only wrong once.
Sissy35
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 0:08:33
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » Sissy35, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 18:57:34
It is supposed to be good for may diseases have you checked it out? I was hoping it would help my thyroid. No deal. I know of person who is using to treat cancer. I wish it would help my spelling disease!!!!!!!
sissy
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 0:13:29
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
There's a few people here who say this antibiotic causes depression. hmm.
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=19&m=662439
I'm not surprised about the inflammation though. I've been reading report after report suspecting inflammation to be the cause of just about everything!
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2009, at 7:35:29
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 0:13:29
> There's a few people here who say this antibiotic causes depression. hmm.
As I mentioned in my first post, some people feel worse while taking doxycyline early in treatment. My doctor has seen people who demonstrate this reaction go on to respond well. He thinks this worsening is a sign that the drug is doing something positive that eventually yields an improvement of depression. Some people need to be on doxycyline for 6 months to see resuls.
Two caveats:
1. This treatment might not really work.
2. This treatment might cause a small minority of people feel worse.I do think that chronic treatment with doxycycline deserves a good look at for treating depression.
Psychobot5000: You bring up an interesting point about the role systemic allergic reactions might have in the pathogenesis of at least some cases of depression.
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 11:06:38
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 11, 2009, at 7:35:29
I wonder if I should give this a try (since all my treatment is nothing but trial and error anyway).
I did find a tick in me once, from a high Lyme area. Didn't get tested until about 4 years later. Maybe this is worth a try.
You have to wonder how much illness is caused by viruses or bacteria. Since I learned scientists discovered HPV is a virus that causes cervical cancer, I have been thinking about this.
Herpes virus--is in many different forms and causes shingles--which attaches to nerve tissue. I wonder how much of our 'disease' is caused by this virus?
Some people are genetically immune to viruses..this could account for those who do not get mental illnesses, rather than what is believed to be the other way around--that we have mental illness genes.
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:38:33
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I read this antibiotic is the popular anti-malaria treatment. My military friend was taking an anti malaria drug for months. Coincidentally or not, he now has central sleep apnea (autonomous nervous system disorder?) and what seems to be permanent sleep problems and insomnia. Anyone know anything about this?
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:52:22
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
It was interesting to find this comment on that last link I sent:
January 20th
2008
5:12 PMThis is odd to read all of these. I'm getting the exact opposite effects. I have a mood disorder which consists of depression and anxiety. I take 5mg Lexapro antidepressant for this. In the past 4 days I've been taking 200mg daily Doxycycline for sinusitis and noticed that I do not feel at all sleepy by bedtime. I notice that I am energetic, a bit too much, during the day, and food does not taste and smell like it usually does. I feel a bit too energetic and even a glass of wine in the evening doesn't seem to help me relax.
I can take this medicine on an empty stomach with no problems. I just noticed that I have lots of energy. I can't complain, as I'm only going to be taking this antibiotic for ten days. I usually have to take a nap in the afternoons on many days. Not anymore.
-- By spice_o_life | Reply | Private Message me
Posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 19:13:11
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:52:22
This thread reminds me of a woman I knew who thought she had depression, was seeing a Pdoc and the whole nine yards. She found out she had Lyme Disease and that relieved her symtoms (she said).
There are no doubt some people out there who think they have depression, who really have Lyme Disease. (but it's a very small percent I'm sure)
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:04:41
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 19:13:11
Count me in that per centage as do have chronic lymes disease. All problems started when diagnosed. The infection control doc as no idea when contacted it. Endo said this week might want to see another one as still positive Western Blot. Just didn't get doxy long enough. Phillipa also found out the newsletter on lymes isn't running anymore the moderator died of lymes. Sad.
Posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I have just been coincidentally prescribed doxycycline (100 mg 2x daily) for an infection. I have been on it for 3 days and have definitely noticed some antidepressant effects. However, it has also come with some side effects of mild dizziness and general apathy.
JB
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2009, at 16:54:05
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
> I have just been coincidentally prescribed doxycycline (100 mg 2x daily) for an infection. I have been on it for 3 days and have definitely noticed some antidepressant effects. However, it has also come with some side effects of mild dizziness and general apathy.
The apathy is probably temporary. Some people seem to go through a period of worsening before their head clears and they feel better. Anyway, I don't care how you get well, as long as it happens. If my doctor's doxycycline treatments are genuinely effective, I hope you glean a robust improvement from it. Perhaps this effect, even if only transient, will provide you with clues as to your psychobiology in order to brainstorm new treatment regimes.
Thank you for coming to visit us every now and again. Please keep us posted.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 21:14:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
Hi Jr the first time prescribed doxycyclline for lymes disease noticed the twitching in leg muscles went away could it have been working? I second the welcome from Scott. Know how busy you are. Love Phillipa
Posted by hadmattress on October 11, 2013, at 20:12:28
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » jrbecker76, posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 21:14:32
> Hi Jr the first time prescribed doxycyclline for lymes disease noticed the twitching in leg muscles went away could it have been working? I second the welcome from Scott. Know how busy you are. Love Phillipa
I have a theory as to the etiology of some mental illness and why the tetracycline antibiotics are effective. Hear me out.
I'm a 27 year-old woman who has been researching and self-treating mental illness (formerly Bipolar II) for about four years. I have to tell you an anecdote in order for you to understand my theory.
Several months ago I began having a severe exacerbation of OCD, depression, tics, ADHD, compromised fluency of speech, acne, body dysmorphia (feeling like I didn't want to be in my own skin), dizziness, ataxia, psychosis and forgetfulness only to discover that the man I had been living with was a clinical psychopath and had been using the neurobehavioral toxicology research I imparted to him against me by putting large doses of iron supplements in the food he cooked me. I got out of that situation immediately, but not without having suffered a pretty big hit to my mental and physical health.
I put myself to work figuring out how to eliminate the iron. Now, you should know that I have been using the Andy Cutler protocol to chelate mercury after removing my mercury dental amalgams. His protocol helped me recover drastically (that's how I managed to turn my suicidal Bipolar II into unipolar anhedonia/dysthymia), but I hit a plateau. "Maybe a lot of the symptoms I have experienced are related to iron toxicity, considering the fortification of food using non-bioavailable iron (beginning most substantially in the 1940s)." I researched, and sure enough, iron deposition in the basal ganglia is found in a lot of these disorders, including depression, Tourette's and OCD.
I started researching iron chelators and learned that tetracycline antibiotics form insoluble complexes with iron, hence why you are told to take iron separately from them. Minocycline can be used after a stroke to chelate iron, which protects the brain from neuronal death from oxidative damage, inflammation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21998050
So, I purchased minocycline in order to "clean up" my brain. Of course, iron feeds pathogens, which is how iron chelating antibiotics work-- they starve them out by sequestering the iron. Ferritin is not a good indicator of iron storage considering the body quarantines iron in the organs to protect itself during chronic illness and infection, so you can even appear to be anemic with iron overload (also copper deficiency which is sometimes (paradoxically) paired with copper toxicity due to biounavailable copper can cause iron overload). The body is refusing to give the iron to feed the pathogens, or cause further inflammation by releasing it into the bloodstream, but all this iron build-up in the organs is toxic.
Here is the problem, Andy Cutler PhD says that you MUST take any chelator at a very low dose on the half-life. Taking it at a low dose allows the body to eliminate the heavy metals in a way that doesn't overload your bloodstream with toxins, causing all sorts of unwanted side effects. Your body's detoxification system simply cannot keep up with a large amount of toxic metals circulating for a few hours. Taking the chelator on the half-life prevents the metals from redistributing. Think of a chelator as little hands that pick up toxins: if there aren't a constant stream of hands to hold onto the toxins, the toxins get dropped causing more damage to tissues. The more hands (i.e. chelator), the more toxins are mobilized from tissues and thus a greater toxic burden when the drug is eliminated.
When I received my minocycline, I started taking very small doses (10mg every 8 hours approximately). Most of my symptoms were significantly lessened, but I ended up having a hypersensitivity reaction after a couple weeks, which is (I'm sure you know) not uncommon with minocycline, and so I had to stop taking it. I am going to order doxycycline and try again with that. At the moment I'm taking deferasirox, another iron chelator, which is working well (as evidenced by the fact that I'm writing this to begin with).
Anyway, just my two cents.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2013, at 22:10:55
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by hadmattress on October 11, 2013, at 20:13:09
My curiousity is certainly piqued. Re: presence of iron in certain brain regions, must note that correlation is not causation. Still. Anyone with relevant nutritive/pharmaceutical expertise able to comment?
>
> I have a theory as to the etiology of some mental illness and why the tetracycline antibiotics are effective. Hear me out.
>
> I'm a 27 year-old woman who has been researching and self-treating mental illness (formerly Bipolar II) for about four years. I have to tell you an anecdote in order for you to understand my theory.
>
> Several months ago I began having a severe exacerbation of OCD, depression, tics, ADHD, compromised fluency of speech, acne, body dysmorphia (feeling like I didn't want to be in my own skin), dizziness, ataxia, psychosis and forgetfulness only to discover that the man I had been living with was a clinical psychopath and had been using the neurobehavioral toxicology research I imparted to him against me by putting large doses of iron supplements in the food he cooked me. I got out of that situation immediately, but not without having suffered a pretty big hit to my mental and physical health.
>
> I put myself to work figuring out how to eliminate the iron. Now, you should know that I have been using the Andy Cutler protocol to chelate mercury after removing my mercury dental amalgams. His protocol helped me recover drastically (that's how I managed to turn my suicidal Bipolar II into unipolar anhedonia/dysthymia), but I hit a plateau. "Maybe a lot of the symptoms I have experienced are related to iron toxicity, considering the fortification of food using non-bioavailable iron (beginning most substantially in the 1940s)." I researched, and sure enough, iron deposition in the basal ganglia is found in a lot of these disorders, including depression, Tourette's and OCD.
>
> I started researching iron chelators and learned that tetracycline antibiotics form insoluble complexes with iron, hence why you are told to take iron separately from them. Minocycline can be used after a stroke to chelate iron, which protects the brain from neuronal death from oxidative damage, inflammation.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21998050
>
> So, I purchased minocycline in order to "clean up" my brain. Of course, iron feeds pathogens, which is how iron chelating antibiotics work-- they starve them out by sequestering the iron. Ferritin is not a good indicator of iron storage considering the body quarantines iron in the organs to protect itself during chronic illness and infection, so you can even appear to be anemic with iron overload (also copper deficiency which is sometimes (paradoxically) paired with copper toxicity due to biounavailable copper can cause iron overload). The body is refusing to give the iron to feed the pathogens, or cause further inflammation by releasing it into the bloodstream, but all this iron build-up in the organs is toxic.
>
> Here is the problem, Andy Cutler PhD says that you MUST take any chelator at a very low dose on the half-life. Taking it at a low dose allows the body to eliminate the heavy metals in a way that doesn't overload your bloodstream with toxins, causing all sorts of unwanted side effects. Your body's detoxification system simply cannot keep up with a large amount of toxic metals circulating for a few hours. Taking the chelator on the half-life prevents the metals from redistributing. Think of a chelator as little hands that pick up toxins: if there aren't a constant stream of hands to hold onto the toxins, the toxins get dropped causing more damage to tissues. The more hands (i.e. chelator), the more toxins are mobilized from tissues and thus a greater toxic burden when the drug is eliminated.
>
> When I received my minocycline, I started taking very small doses (10mg every 8 hours approximately). Most of my symptoms were significantly lessened, but I ended up having a hypersensitivity reaction after a couple weeks, which is (I'm sure you know) not uncommon with minocycline, and so I had to stop taking it. I am going to order doxycycline and try again with that. At the moment I'm taking deferasirox, another iron chelator, which is working well (as evidenced by the fact that I'm writing this to begin with).
>
> Anyway, just my two cents.
>
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 1:16:19
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2013, at 22:10:55
I wasn't aware of the iron chelating properties of tetracyclines. That's very interesting.
I have tried minocycline and doxycyline to treat my bipolar depression. I found doxycycline to be without effect despite taking it for several months. By comparison, minocycine afforded me a robust antidepressant effect that appeared in the first week of treatment. It is my impression that this effect is the result of any of a multitude of other actions of minocycline that are absent in the other tetracyclines.
- Scott
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2013, at 1:51:28
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 1:16:19
> I wasn't aware of the iron chelating properties of tetracyclines. That's very interesting.
>
> I have tried minocycline and doxycyline to treat my bipolar depression. I found doxycycline to be without effect despite taking it for several months. By comparison, minocycine afforded me a robust antidepressant effect that appeared in the first week of treatment. It is my impression that this effect is the result of any of a multitude of other actions of minocycline that are absent in the other tetracyclines.
Interesting indeed. I take it minocycline's antidepressant effect was not sustained? Were there notable side-effects?Side-note: always be sure your 'cycline' is within its expiration date. Unlike most drugs, tetracyclines become poisononous after expiration (gradually, I assume, but I wouldn't push my luck on this one much, from what I've been told)
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 5:37:25
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2013, at 1:51:28
Hi.
Nice to see you again.
> Interesting indeed. I take it minocycline's antidepressant effect was not sustained?
At this point, I am experiencing a partial, but sustained improvement using 7 different medications. When I have tried to discontinue minocycline, I lost much of this improvement. A friend of mine achieved remission within 3 days of starting minocycline. For what it is worth, my friend and I have felt best when combining minocycline with Abilify and Lamictal.
> Side-note: always be sure your 'cycline' is within its expiration date. Unlike most drugs, tetracyclines become poisononous after expiration
Thanks. I had forgotten about that.
So what's the deal with you? How have you been?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 5:50:59
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2013, at 1:51:28
Minocycline:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023257.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120818/msgs/1024307.html
- Scott
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2013, at 12:15:03
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 5:37:25
Hi Scott, it's nice to talk to you again, too. What's up with me? Same old, I suppose--inadequate partial remission of severe unipolar depression, and I gave up posting or checking here because I have up looking for this type of solution for the most part (and because, though my appearences have always had a bit of the sporadic about them, I didn't recognize most of the handles posting, the last time I checked here). Then this thread hit my inbox the other day for the first time in...I have no idea how long. So I replied.
I'm okay, trying to make things worse. Not happy, but I try not to complain. Know others have it worse. I'm glad your cocktail has afforded you some relief; I guess I take about 5 medications regularly to achieve...possibly something similar. But, yeah, very glad to hear of any substantial improvement. We all know you work hard to help others find stuff here, so thanks. Maybe I'll try to check back more frequently (I have to go--to write up a shotlist for a film project in a school I'm juuuuuuust functional enough to attend, it often seems)
Hope you (and all of you) are well,
PB> Hi.
>
> Nice to see you again.
>
> > Interesting indeed. I take it minocycline's antidepressant effect was not sustained?
>
> At this point, I am experiencing a partial, but sustained improvement using 7 different medications. When I have tried to discontinue minocycline, I lost much of this improvement. A friend of mine achieved remission within 3 days of starting minocycline. For what it is worth, my friend and I have felt best when combining minocycline with Abilify and Lamictal.
>
> > Side-note: always be sure your 'cycline' is within its expiration date. Unlike most drugs, tetracyclines become poisononous after expiration
>
> Thanks. I had forgotten about that.
>
> So what's the deal with you? How have you been?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 13:40:40
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2013, at 12:15:03
Good luck with your project!
- Scott
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 13, 2013, at 0:46:03
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on October 12, 2013, at 13:40:40
> Good luck with your project!
>
>
> - ScottThanks much, Scott. I never did get competely prepared beforehand, but others in my competent team picked up the slack where my efforts were short, and I was able to contribute my bit at the appropriate time. Now time to produce something good in the editing lab. Best of luck to you in all your near-future endeavors (and to anyone else who may be listening--one big key to getting at least a little better has been being able find work I'm good at and staying occupied with it. Take care, all).
Posted by Jeroen on October 15, 2013, at 16:08:18
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by bleauberry on January 7, 2009, at 10:36:15
another anti biotic ciprofolaxin
short term relief of depression and psychosis
it didnt work the second time and thereafter so
its like the seroquel again it stopped working
may i ask whats going on with me?
what virus could this be?
Posted by hadmattress on October 17, 2013, at 3:55:34
In reply to only 2 eardrops panotile worked magic, posted by Jeroen on October 15, 2013, at 16:08:18
Here are a couple more interesting tidbits about iron and the brain:
"Iron accumulates in brain regions associated with neurodegenerative diseases of PD, AD, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and Huntington disease. It is thought to be involved in Fenton chemistry oxidative stress observed in these diseases. The neuroprotective activity of propargylamines led us to develop several novel bifunctional iron chelator from our prototype brain permeable iron chelators, VK-28, possessing propargylamine moiety (HLA-20, M30 and M30A) to iron out iron from the brain. These compounds have been shown to have iron chelating and monoamine oxidase A and B selective brain inhibitory and neuroprotective-antiapoptotic actions."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15621213
From the book Iron Disorders Institute Guide to Hemochromatosis:
"A popular therapeutic drug for depression, imipramine, can decrease the ability of a cell to obtain iron." Pg. 94
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