![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 11:49:20
Well once again i've been up all night even though i woke early on yesterday... i've just been researching stuff ect... Now the thing is i feel like i'd be 90% cured if i could get Australia to move their clocks fawards or back 12 hours.
I'm so awake and full of energy at night where as in the daytime im sleepy and lethagic. It makes no difference what time i go to sleep or how long i sleep for nor when i take my meds or even if i'm on any at all, it's always like this and started in my early teens and the thing is if i force myself to skip a nights sleep and then stay awake all day i will be tired as hell but come nightfall i will feel awake again like i didn't skip the nights (or days) sleep.
I take 25mg of seroquel every night now so i can sleep at night and be awake during the day but im still sleeping until 2 or 3 in the afternoon and it doesn't seem to matter if i go to sleep earlier, it just means i will sleep longer.
Any ideas on what cylces go on in the body that may be out of whack and causing this? It's like my internal clock is out by 12 hours or something, either that or i'm a vampire.
Posted by linkadge on January 18, 2009, at 12:52:23
In reply to sleep cycle, posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 11:49:20
You might try bright light in the morning coupled with vitamin d and some caffine.
Linkadge
Posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 13:19:45
In reply to sleep cycle, posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 11:49:20
Hi again,
I've posted information to you several times; found articles/links and shared them with you...but you've never acknowledged one of my posts, so I'm not sure if I should even write to you? If I said anything to offend you, please let me know.
I have the same problem. I know what you mean being tired and unable to sleep. It was the abolsulte worst with anxiety--so horribly tired but unable to sleep...even when I don't have strong anxeity, I feel that way though.
I recently discovered Melatonin-take 2 mg at night. It helps. My 'cycle' is all screwed up too. Under normal circumstances when I'm not all messed up from medications, I sleep 8 to 10 hours if I don't set an alarm. My body also seems to always want to revert to an approx. 10 am wake time/2 am go to sleep time, if I'm not working or doing anything highly structured.
I've always felt that my body clock doesn't match the rest of the worlds. Since I could remember.
I've had jobs where I had to get up at 3 am. No matter how much sleep I've gotten the night/day before, I felt miserable. Always.
Would be great if someone knew of research in this area. I did come across something, maybe I already posted it, about melantonin deficiencies. All I remember at the moment is that you cannot produce melatonin while in the light. Looking at computers late at night can affect your bodies production (but wouldn't you just make the mealatonin when you shut the light out??). Wish I knew where that article was right now.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 18, 2009, at 13:20:02
In reply to Re: sleep cycle, posted by linkadge on January 18, 2009, at 12:52:23
I have very good luck managing my sleep/wake cycle using light therapy (30 min. with 10K lux full spectrum) and Provigil (200 mg in the a.m.). Mine is not so dramtically off from the rest of my world as yours seems to be, mav. I do wish, though, that the usual workday was more like 10-6 or even 11-7 instead of 8-5. My body has never adapted on its own to the "norm".
I know how hard this is. I hope you find some success with coping soon.
gg
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2009, at 13:35:40
In reply to Re: sleep cycle » mav27, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 13:19:45
Hey we keep the same sleep cycle mine from working 3-ll for many years. Also like it at night. I take low dose benzos wake once for synthroid and 2.5 valium and back to sleep. I always thought Australia's time would suit me better. Love Phillipa
Posted by ricker on January 18, 2009, at 14:24:24
In reply to sleep cycle, posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 11:49:20
I too have struggled with achieving a reliant sleep cycle. I had a good run with remeron 15mg for 5 years but have since made changes.
I know I struggle when my daily routine is filled with low grade, chronic anxiety-agitation. This is a signal for me to address my overall regime, rather than focusing on a drug that will knock me out... it just masks the root problem for me.
When I'm in a stable way throughout the day, regular sleep patterns follow suite. For some, it's kinda like the chicken and egg? is the sleep pattern to blame for daily mood deteriation, or is the daily mood interfering with successful sleep?
Healthy sleep allows me to maintain a rigorous exercise program which in turn keeps my overall health in check.
I usually go to bed around 11pm and am sleeping by 11:30. When things aren't in sink, I can lay awake all night which only adds to my anxiety...starring at the alarm clock as 06:45 approaches!!???
Winter time seems to be worse as well, although one would think the longer summer days would make for complicated sleep...not so for me.
I've just started a new cocktail so hopefully my sleep will benefit. Sorry I can't offer something more helpful other than support, hang in there, tonight may be the one! :)
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 15:09:32
In reply to Re: sleep cycle » mav27, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 13:19:45
For a normal 8 hour sleep cycle beginning at 10:00pm or 11:00pm, the pineal gland squirts out the most melatonin at about 2:00am. It then falls off gradually the rest of the night until it is cut off entirely when the retina of the eye is exposed to light. I forget when it makes the most sense to take melatonin before going to bed. You don't want melatonin to peak before 2:00am as this will tend to desynchronize the biological clocks. This is what might be making people feel less rested than they would expect and would screw up the next day's rhythms of the other hormones. It might be best to wait until 11:00pm.
- Scott
Posted by mav27 on January 18, 2009, at 15:28:17
In reply to Re: sleep cycle » mav27, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 13:19:45
> Hi again,
>
> I've posted information to you several times; found articles/links and shared them with you...but you've never acknowledged one of my posts, so I'm not sure if I should even write to you? If I said anything to offend you, please let me know.
>
> I have the same problem. I know what you mean being tired and unable to sleep. It was the abolsulte worst with anxiety--so horribly tired but unable to sleep...even when I don't have strong anxeity, I feel that way though.
>
> I recently discovered Melatonin-take 2 mg at night. It helps. My 'cycle' is all screwed up too. Under normal circumstances when I'm not all messed up from medications, I sleep 8 to 10 hours if I don't set an alarm. My body also seems to always want to revert to an approx. 10 am wake time/2 am go to sleep time, if I'm not working or doing anything highly structured.
>
> I've always felt that my body clock doesn't match the rest of the worlds. Since I could remember.
>
> I've had jobs where I had to get up at 3 am. No matter how much sleep I've gotten the night/day before, I felt miserable. Always.
>
> Would be great if someone knew of research in this area. I did come across something, maybe I already posted it, about melantonin deficiencies. All I remember at the moment is that you cannot produce melatonin while in the light. Looking at computers late at night can affect your bodies production (but wouldn't you just make the mealatonin when you shut the light out??). Wish I knew where that article was right now.
>Hey, sorry if i've seemed rude by not aknowledging your posts, it wasn't intentially i assure you.
Unfortunatly melatonin as a supplement or prescription med or whaever it is isn't able to be bought in Australia. But i'm interested in what you mentioned at the end about melatonin not being able to be made in the light, is that sunlight or any kind of light because i sleep with my computer on and ts next to my bed and also with my TV on which is at the end of my bed.
Posted by Sigismund on January 18, 2009, at 15:54:13
In reply to Re: sleep cycle » mav27, posted by Garnet71 on January 18, 2009, at 13:19:45
>Would be great if someone knew of research in this area. I did come across something, maybe I already posted it, about melantonin deficiencies. All I remember at the moment is that you cannot produce melatonin while in the light. Looking at computers late at night can affect your bodies production (but wouldn't you just make the mealatonin when you shut the light out??). Wish I knew where that article was right now.
I take melatonin but it never gives me the wave of restful tiredness. For some reason that comes early in the mornings (a few hours before waking) and sometimes after lunch.
Posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 16:00:50
In reply to Re: sleep cycle, posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 15:09:32
I just read an interesting article.
It seems that there is some variability in the optimum dosage and optimum time to take melatonin to enhance sleep. Interindividual rates of absorption and metabolism of melatonin can vary greatly. In addition, the time best taken can vary as much as 3 hours. Still, the average time to take melatonin ranges between 30 and 60 minutes before bed; the ideal time for bed being between 10:00pm and 11:00pm.
Again, we are relegated to trial-and-error unless one wishes to go for a sleep study to evaluate melatonin production curves. However, I think that if one is methodical, they can arrive at his own optimized use of melatonin.
Dan Oren and Thomas Wehr have been studying this stuff for years. They were both at the NIH while I was there. I think Dr. Oren has since moved to Yale University. You can use their names on Google to locate some good literature. They discuss how best to manipulate the sleep-wake cycle and various other issues regarding chronopsychobiology.
The suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus is the site in the brain of the master clock and must be reset every day by zeitgebers (environmental cues) such as daylight and temperature, and even social cues. Of these, light is the most important. Using bright light treatments in the morning can help reset the master clock (formally X-Clock) and help synchronize the other biological clocks (mostly endocrine) that are now known to exist. If one needs to delay sleep effectively, he may use bright light treatments at night. However, for some of us, this can be depressogenic, just as advancing the clock can be antidepressant. Is depressolytic a word? If not, for the sake of symmetry, it should be.
This is fascinating stuff of which I don't know nearly enough. There has been an explosion of data coming in regarding chronobiology, including the effects of lithium. There is quite a bit that is now understood, thanks to Drosophila melanogaster (fruit flies). Just about every cell in nature has its own circadian apparatus.
It wasn't too many years ago that the pineal gland was considered a functionless vestigial structure analogous to the appendix.
- Scott
Posted by whitmore on January 19, 2009, at 20:12:45
In reply to Re: sleep cycle, posted by SLS on January 18, 2009, at 16:00:50
Is Rozerem available in Australia? For me, it's very effective at making me go to sleep, whereas melatonin is not. In my case though, I wake up a few hours later with panic attacks, but in researching on the web, that doesn't seem to happen to anyone else. Might be worth a try.
Posted by mav27 on January 21, 2009, at 1:13:14
In reply to Re: sleep cycle--mav27, posted by whitmore on January 19, 2009, at 20:12:45
Nah, doesn't seem to be available here.
> Is Rozerem available in Australia? For me, it's very effective at making me go to sleep, whereas melatonin is not. In my case though, I wake up a few hours later with panic attacks, but in researching on the web, that doesn't seem to happen to anyone else. Might be worth a try.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.