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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ksyzysk on October 11, 2008, at 22:58:08
Hi,
INTRODUCTION
I have been a lurker on this site for about a year now and first want to thank you all for the valuable information I have received (especially regarding Nardil which I am now on).BACKGROUND
My primary diagnoses are social anxiety disorder and body dismorphic disorder (BDD) with comorbid TR-depression. Almost three years ago now the pressures of life became to demanding and cronic full-blown anxiety has made my life a living hell. The one thing that has caused most suffering are just about "nightly" nightmares which give me no peace of mind and completely disrupt my days. In this cronic nightmare disorder the nightmares are very different in character from the "normal" nightmares I had back when I was relatively healthy up until the age of 27. The nightmares are very intense (anxiety) and rub of in a very physical way (ears ring, head spings + more). Contentwise, they often repeat a currently traumatic theme (when present) or just random garbage. I have tried a plethora of drugs and I have had partial/full relief with some until tolerance sets in (poop-out). For example, Nardil, suppressing just about all REM sleep initially was very effect at first. Now, 5 months later REM sleep as reappeared and I am starting to feel REALLY desperate! In my young adult years I consumed "moderate" amounts of illegal drugs in a span of almost ten years to provide relief from the SAD induced loneliness. I am now so extremely frightened that I have somehow managed to damage my brain irreversibly :( ! I am so SCARED!!!QUESTION
I have had a really hard time finding people on web forums relating similar experiences which only makes me even more afraid. If anyone has/has had anything even remotely similar, please do tell?
Posted by cactus on October 11, 2008, at 23:51:14
In reply to Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 11, 2008, at 22:58:08
Hi, have you had a sleep study done? Have you researched hypnopompic, hypnogogic hallucinations? In regards to your nightmares, if so, do you relate to them?
I found either valium or klonopin- rivotril (clonazepam) Knocked them out completely. I still have nightmares but not to the same extent anymore. No more nightmares entering my bedroom as I wake up paralized. Have you had sleep paralysis? Do you have aural or tactile sensations when you drop off to sleep or upon waking? It's a horrible sensation, which leaves you so wiped out the next day.
There are some interesting forums on sleep.com
good luck, C
Posted by cactus on October 11, 2008, at 23:53:51
In reply to Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 11, 2008, at 22:58:08
Also, some medications can really set off intense nightmares, so that might be a good idea to look into also. C
Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2008, at 23:56:36
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » ksyzysk, posted by cactus on October 11, 2008, at 23:51:14
Nightmares on things that could happen and leave me shaking when I wake and not know where I am taking valium, .5 xanax and 50mg luvox. Please don't be scared it will make it worse easier said than done as mine also scare me. And a big welcome to babble since your'e new I see. Be patient and lots of more replies will come in someone I bet with exactly the same symtoms and fears or close. Hang in there this is a site for support and we will support you to the best of our ability. Phillipa
Posted by manic666 on October 12, 2008, at 3:36:57
In reply to Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 11, 2008, at 22:58:08
most meds give you nightmares , i sleep in a different room to the wife , she was fed up being kicked out of bed or half srangled by these bouts of uncontrolable fear. still i did win a few battles an lost more, i no there not real they sure seem like it. i dont mind now i turn them into a game but at first the caused anxiety attacks. bring em on now i just turn into a crazy superhero, i still lose most times but hey i can take it im a super hero.good luck mannic666
Posted by Extreme on October 12, 2008, at 6:04:15
In reply to Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 11, 2008, at 22:58:08
I have cronic STRONG dreams both good and bad and they get affected by many medicines and supplements. The ringing in the ears probably is a phase of sleeping paralysis which I have now and then AND as far as my own experience goes the ringing in the ears also is a "classic" thing on surtain drugs... I think it is even listed on many sideeffects-labels. Paradoxal every benzo makes me either sleep worse or change my dreams... with xanax XR giving me better and more fun dreams.
If you can figure out you are in a dream then you can take control in them. The power of awarness in a dream can change the dream. Like manic666 says in his post... becoming superhero is quite possible in some dreams when you reach awarness about that you are in a dream. For example... I have been cut by knives and swords severly in dreams by people and it feels SO **** real... but when I know I am in a dream I know I can not die and when the enemies see that they tend to get really scared or surprised and backing off. You can do amazing things when knowing you are in a dream... and if it is really really bad nightmare try to build up RAGE inside yourself, think about something that really pisses you off and use that energy to destroy the bad things in the dream!
Posted by cactus on October 12, 2008, at 13:12:20
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by Extreme on October 12, 2008, at 6:04:15
Extreme that's great advice. I also make myself realize that it's a dream and turn it around to suit me but it does take practice.
Just keep on trying ksyzysk. You can take control of your dreams with a bit of patience and persistance.
Ringing in the ears is a sign of sleep paralysis but as you said, quite a few meds do this too.
Posted by ksyzysk on October 12, 2008, at 14:41:47
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » Extreme, posted by cactus on October 12, 2008, at 13:12:20
Thank you for all your posts! I am glad I have finally had the courage to take the active step of becoming a part of this community! I have done a fair bit of personal research regarding my sleep disorder. I think this is primarily why I am so scared because my symptoms do not seem to fit into any category. The closest I have come is "nightmare disorder" but I have practically found no information about it. I am pretty sure I do not have any of the disorders that you have mentioned. My nightmares (or rather awakenings due to them) have a regularity which you could set your clock after: four hours after sleep onset, 1.5h? after second sleep onset etc. This plus many other factors indicate REM sleep but I do not relate to sleep paralysis. I also do not relate my disorder to hypno* hallucinations. My nightmares seem to be "normal" dreams but with an extremely negative charge (anxiety). My best guess up to date is that the prolonged periods of intense and sustained stress which I have experienced have damaged my brain's anxiety circuitry and the nightmares are simply one of many manifestations of this. I just do not understand why I seem to be so alone in this?! My primary diagnoses are shared by many people whose experiences I have read about on the web. My past history of drug abuse may be the culprit?!
Also, in my case the nightmares do not cease when I am medication free. The idea of taking control of your dreams (allowed by for instance the technique of lucid dreaming if memory serves my right) is a really good one! I have also looked into image rehearsal therapy (IRT) indicated for PTSD dreams. Unfortunately I have not had the discipline, motivation?, memory? etc to pursue any of these alternatives yet. The Nardil daytime sedation is another stultifying factor that makes any kind of endeavor a tall order when I am free after work hours. Some of the meds I have tried:
* the benzodiazepines (oxazepam, diazepam and clonazepam) I have tried have been great for sleep onset but do not keep the nightmares at bay. However, they are the single most effective means of allaying the distress once the damage has been done. Nitrazepam made me sleep like a baby but its less beneficial effects would persist way into the day.
* 30mg of Mirtazapine (Remeron) was effective for 8 months but severely reduced overall quality of life.
* Nardil was great for 5 months.
* A small dose of 25mg of Seroquel (quetiapine) was effective and I used it for a month. However, for some reason I am very uneasy (have a bad feeling) when it comes to antipsychotics and discontinued. I automatically think extrapyramidal symptoms...is my paranoia unfounded?
Currently small doses (7.5mg) of zopiclone and diazepam (2.5mg) seem to have the best trade-off ratio and allows me to function during the day.
I am however afraid of tolerance setting in and need to find alternative meds which I can bounce between. Any ideas!/ksyzysk
Posted by cactus on October 13, 2008, at 3:28:51
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 12, 2008, at 14:41:47
* the benzodiazepines (oxazepam, diazepam and clonazepam) I have tried have been great for sleep onset but do not keep the nightmares at bay. However, they are the single most effective means of allaying the distress once the damage has been done. Nitrazepam made me sleep like a baby but its less beneficial effects would persist way into the day.
Interesting you mentioned mogadon (nitrazepam) I've had 1 pdoc and 2 GP's quiz me throughly about it's nightmare inducing side effects. It's meant to be one of the worst drugs for nightmares, but I never found they ever got any worse from it for me personally. It never made my nightmares any worse and the doctors found that really strange. I still think it's the best sleeping pill on the market. Maybe you could try taking half (2.5mg) You do get use to the next day, a strong coffee and hot shower does the trick for me. Good luck. C.
You must not be in the US, it's not available there, I have no idea why, it's such a good sleeping pill.
Please look into having a sleep study done
Posted by Murasaki on October 13, 2008, at 21:13:36
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » ksyzysk, posted by cactus on October 13, 2008, at 3:28:51
I currently am experiencing horrid repetitive nightmares, linked to depression and PTSD. I've done two sleep studies and have been diagnosed with centrally mediated sleep apnea.
I resist sleeping because of this problem. I have found the book Lucid Dreaming: A Concise Guide to Awakening in Your Dreams and In Your Life, by Stephen LaBerge to be somewhat helpful. There is a CD available as well. You might give that a shot, it couldn't hurt and has been of some help to me.
Posted by raisinb on October 13, 2008, at 21:22:59
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by Murasaki on October 13, 2008, at 21:13:36
This sounds really awful--I feel for you. I'm experiencing something similar on Remeron. I don't have nightmares all the time, but any dream on this med is extremely vivid, so when I do, it's terrible. I also have mild hallucinations upon waking--visual and auditory. It feels like a more intense version of hypnagogic (sp?) hallucinations, which are (I think) normal--it's the voices that people often hear while falling asleep. I've always had those. I hear bits and pieces of strange voices having random conversations right before I drop off. I usually welcome them as a good sign, because they herald sleep, and when I have insomnia, I try to induce them a bit. I thought I was crazy until I researched them on wiki and found out that a lot of people have them.
Anyway, my completely uneducated guess is that certain brain chemicals, when augmented, augment this natural phenomenon until it's overwhelming, and that's what causes horribly vivid dreams. So, either your nightmares are a symptom to be relieved, or they're a side effect caused by a med you're on. It sounds like the former since you've had them for so many years, so I'd ask your pdoc about meds that dampen brain activity during sleep (if that's something they know about?)
It's too bad that in general, science knows so little about sleeping and dreaming.
Posted by raisinb on October 13, 2008, at 21:30:08
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by raisinb on October 13, 2008, at 21:22:59
well, now I'm confused--I looked this stuff up again, and some sites say it's a symptom of narcolepsy (which I can only wish for, given a history of serious, chronic insomnia).
So, anyway, take what I wrote above with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how to read these phenomena.
Posted by Murasaki on October 14, 2008, at 13:06:57
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by raisinb on October 13, 2008, at 21:30:08
The meds I'm currently taking are methadone and Percocet for pain and Cortef for adrenal exhaustion, that's it. I've been prescribed Provigil and Deplin for depression, agorophobia, and PTSD. I reacted so badly to the fist dose of Provigil I've been afraid to take a lower dose. Now I'm afraid to try the Deplin as well.
When I read about some of the medication side effects people have it terrifies me. I think I've become accustomed to living this way, avoidant and depressed, that I no longer believe it can be any other way.
Posted by cactus on October 14, 2008, at 14:57:47
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by raisinb on October 13, 2008, at 21:30:08
> well, now I'm confused--I looked this stuff up again, and some sites say it's a symptom of narcolepsy (which I can only wish for, given a history of serious, chronic insomnia).
>
> So, anyway, take what I wrote above with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how to read these phenomena.Yes raisinb it's only a symptom of narcolepsy, I've had both hypno's since I was a kid but I don't have narcolepsy. They're not always connected and can occur on their own. I too suffer from chronic nightmares and insomnia but as I said earlier clonazepam, nitrazepam and diazepam (not all at the same time) have stopped the worst of it. I also found my 1st piece of info about hypno's on wiki too, then found more on other sites. I still get them from time to time and I too used to wait for the voices because I knew that it meant sleep was coming. I would hear distant conversations and then bang I would be dreaming. It wasn't always a pleasant experience but you do get used to it.
ksyzysk, a sleep study looks at all kinds of things, because they measure your brain activity so closely, they might be able to pin point what is causing these nightmares. good luck. c
Posted by ksyzysk on October 14, 2008, at 15:58:35
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 12, 2008, at 14:41:47
I agree, the only course left for me (and one I should have done a long time ago) is to have a sleep study done. I have mentioned this desire of mine previously to at least two pdocs I have been to see. However, for some reason this issue has always been a bit of a mute point and none of them have given it any serious consideration. Eventually I just forget about it and moved along to the next med which might suppress the misery for a night. Thank you everyone, I have found renewed focus in this predicament of mine! I live in Sweden and I do not know how lightly they dish out sleep studies. Just out of interest, for those who have had a sleep study done, how have you gone about getting one?
Posted by Extreme on October 15, 2008, at 5:34:51
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by ksyzysk on October 14, 2008, at 15:58:35
> I agree, the only course left for me (and one I should have done a long time ago) is to have a sleep study done. I have mentioned this desire of mine previously to at least two pdocs I have been to see. However, for some reason this issue has always been a bit of a mute point and none of them have given it any serious consideration. Eventually I just forget about it and moved along to the next med which might suppress the misery for a night. Thank you everyone, I have found renewed focus in this predicament of mine! I live in Sweden and I do not know how lightly they dish out sleep studies. Just out of interest, for those who have had a sleep study done, how have you gone about getting one?
ksyzysk: I live in Sweden too! I will have to let you know... I was signed up for a study of my sleep but unlucky me I was unable to attend because I had moved far away. I lived in Stockholm before and I THINK that most sleeping-studies are done there. There was a 2-3year (!) wait (or even longer... bad track of time here) so I had a really bad luck that just after ONE month after I had moved I got the letter calling me to the study. So annoying.. I would have really liked to know if there was something abnormal going on in my sleep.I suggest, if you live near a bit city, that your doctor can look up where they conduct these studies and write "en remiss" to such a place. My guess is that it is conducted in the Stockholm-region perhaps with Uppsala too. There IS a LONG wait... but hey, better to be on a list knowing that sooner or later they will call you than not being on such a list at all!
Posted by cactus on October 15, 2008, at 7:46:21
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares?, posted by Extreme on October 15, 2008, at 5:34:51
It's a similar situation in Australia. I was told I'd have to wait for over a year. I kept getting phone calls from the hospital saying there had been a cancellation. Every time they called me I said yes to the new date and it ended up taking 6 weeks because I wanted it done quickly.
I got my reference from my GP, not from my pdoc. I have a funny feeling they don't like the way each other looks at symptoms of sleep disorders. My pdoc wouldn't recommend one, he thought it would be a waste of time. My GP thought it was a great idea.
It was the best thing I ever did. My pdoc was surprised when my results came back for sleep apnea and didn't believe the nightmares and hypno's were positive too.
How obnoxious is that, I don't see him anymore. I don't think pdocs like the new interest in sleep disorders, I think they feel threatened by them.
My sleep doc and GP did more for me than any pdoc ever did in the science of sleep. Peace C.
leave the mental health disorders to the pdocs. Once my sleep disorders were treated my depression and anxiety improved greatly, still not perfect mind you but they are much better.
Now please book in for that sleep study. I had been trying to tell doctors for years about my bizarre nightly episodes, no one ever listened to me. My restless leg syndrome is gone, so are my hypno's, I still have a few nightmares but not to the extent that I use to and my depression and anxiety have improved greatly.
Modafinil 200mg AM
clonazepam 2mg 3 times a day
nitrazepam 5mg maybe once a week
Posted by raisinb on October 17, 2008, at 16:28:16
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » raisinb, posted by cactus on October 14, 2008, at 14:57:47
Thanks for clarifying. This is such an interesting topic. I don't find the experience unpleasant at all. I feel like I just succeed in loosening a muscle in my brain so that my thoughts become random and not controlled by me.
Posted by cactus on October 17, 2008, at 20:14:22
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » cactus, posted by raisinb on October 17, 2008, at 16:28:16
> Thanks for clarifying. This is such an interesting topic. I don't find the experience unpleasant at all. I feel like I just succeed in loosening a muscle in my brain so that my thoughts become random and not controlled by me.
I don't mind that either, as I'm drifting off to sleep, voices or images coming to me, realizing that you are still awake and dreaming at the same time is quite a pleasant sensation (lucid dreaming). That's how I usually fall asleep, I wait for it to begin and use it as a hook I suppose to get me into sleep. I got use to that years ago. I even got use to the hypno's too in the end, but now that they don't occur very often anymore they catch me off guard and give me a fright at first.
Before I was medicated I was experiencing them about 3-4 times a week, now it's maybe 1-2 times a year. So the occasional slap or sleep paralysis in the middle of the night when my nightmare manifests into my bedroom catches me off guard again. Sometimes I get a grip on it but not like I use to be able to.
I especially use to hate the nightmares when I'd wake up and feel a presence in the room. Reach for my bedside lamp and it wouldn't switch on, the light had blown, so I would leap out of bed and run down the hallway, everytime I got to the kitchen to have a glass of water to calm me down I'd wake up in bed again paralyzed with some ominous presence lurking in the shadows. I couldn't always see it because I could only move my eyes if I was lucky. The really bad ones would involve slapping, grabbing and or tugging of my limbs, being choked, gagged or smothered or my all time favorite, being grabbed by the scruff of my t-shirt and yanked upright. That wouldn't stop until I was either fully awake or fell back asleep. If I fell back asleep there was a 50% chance of it happening on my next waking cycle.
It is so real, and confusing. The only way I knew it had stopped was when I could move and my bedside lamp would finally switch on.
I don't miss those days, they were so exhausting, but so are the straight, up normal nightmares too.
I find the best thing to do when you've had a really bad nightmare is to get out of bed for 10mins, have a glass of water or go to the loo. If I just roll over and close my eyes, I'll jump straight back into the nightmare again. I have a weird brain, Peace, C
Posted by elanor roosevelt on October 20, 2008, at 22:40:42
In reply to Re: Does anyone have cronic nightmares? » raisinb, posted by cactus on October 17, 2008, at 20:14:22
the queen of nightmares here
ever since i was a small child when i also talked and walked in my sleep
as i got older the nightmares were more frequent
often abstract terror and sometimes that spooky sh*t of being attacked-- just torn at by some beingalso went through stages during which i would go back to sleep and return to the nightmare that woke me up
three things i learned that may or may not fit into your belief system1)a small pillow of rosemary near your face helps
2) look at your hand(is it real or in your mind's eye can't tell you)concentrate on looking at your hand and you can then then control your dream (including exiting)
3) a very good therapist told me that my nightmares would stop when I started to deal with my fears in my waking hours
as far as meds go
remeron gave me very structured quest-like dreams
i failed at every quest and woke up crankymost meds steal my dreams away and i do not like that as i consider dreams of great importance
recently tapered off effexor and had fabulous nightmares--so interesting that they were worth the fear
at this point in my life i would suggest keeping a rosemary pillow and taking xanax
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