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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 15:17:59
I saw on 60 Minutes about a drug called propranolol, which blocks adrenlian and other chemicals that cause racing thoughts, and whatnot apparently. It also is used to help angina, which I may have since I get no exercise, and my heart does feel sore at times.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDrugs/Propranololcd.htmlIts a beta-blocker, one of many.
Are there any beta blockers that do not cause memory problems, and do not have a list of scary and potentially fatal side effects?
I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for something, staring me down, touching me, or standing close to me for the purpose of intimidation.
What medications could I take, that will work? Has anyone else had anxiety like mine, worrying about things racing through their head every day, constantly, unable to stop it? What works and hasn't worked for you.
Posted by yxibow on November 28, 2006, at 16:38:46
In reply to Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what meds?, posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 15:17:59
> I saw on 60 Minutes about a drug called propranolol, which blocks adrenlian and other chemicals that cause racing thoughts, and whatnot apparently. It also is used to help angina, which I may have since I get no exercise, and my heart does feel sore at times.
Well -- I would say, get some exercise, but I don't know if you actually have a medical diagnosis of angina or whether you are obsessing about the possibility. Regardless, walking around the block for 30-60 minutes a day is gentle, recommended exercise for any age and can easily be done.
Propranolol is a non-cardioselective beta blocker and is the most popularly prescribed one. There is also atenolol and nadolol, but I don't know their effectiveness vis a vis propranolol.You want a non-cardioselective (older generation) beta blocker because it doesnt "select" for your heart -- it is an "unclean" drug because the earlier drugs were not tuned like currently prescribed metoprolol, etc., and crosses the blood brain barrier quite effectively and blocks peripheral parts of your nervous system. This includes all the types of anxiety you are describing and then some; it is also an anti-tremor drug, as it blocks that part of the periphery too (your hands).
And by the way it is also used in angina.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDrugs/Propranololcd.html
>
> Its a beta-blocker, one of many.
>
> Are there any beta blockers that do not cause memory problems, and do not have a list of scary and potentially fatal side effects?Inderal (Propranolol) has been prescribed in the hundreds of millions of doses by now. It is frequently prescribed for stage fright.
There are no real scary and fatal side effects unless you like to read the PDR for every medication. Beta blockers only become an issue for several reasons:
1) Your pulse is already below 50-60 and you take a significant dose -- you'll probably start feeling cold because your blood pressure and pulse have hit too bit a low point. You might faint if you're not ready to accept the temporary drop in blood pressure. Its not going to kill you unless you take a significant dose at this juncture, but I wouldn't get up or sit down fast, especially on concrete.
2) You are taking it for a long term for the symptoms of anxiety -- remember, it does not get "at the root cause," which I use loosely (i.e. benzodiazepines) and you stop taking it suddenly. If you stop taking a daily prescribed beta blocker, your heart rhythm will alter. This is not a fatal issue if you have a reasonably good heart and can be corrected by resuming the beta blocker and slowly tapering off.Normally propranolol is a PRN drug (as necessary) -- but some do take it long term because their doctor a) decides its appropriate or b) decides its appropriate because they are benzophobic
> I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for something, staring me down, touching me, or standing close to me for the purpose of intimidation.This sounds like a form of OCD/Social Phobia, and propranolol, benzodiazepines, and SSRIs such as Luvox would be medications I would think would be indicated.
> What medications could I take, that will work? Has anyone else had anxiety like mine, worrying about things racing through their head every day, constantly, unable to stop it? What works and hasn't worked for you.Again, this sounds like racing OCD thoughts and more convinces me that a more sedating SSRI like Luvox could be quite effective. But that is up to your doctor's opinion. Paxil as well, is the second most sedating. You probably would not want something like Prozac which is the least sedating and would initially exacerbate your anxiety more than sedating SSRIs in their initial period.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself -- its a hard thing to come to grips with. Autonomic nervous system and somatoform conditions seem like they are looming large, but when one learns to get them under control, they don't own you.Medication is not the only solution -- in fact it is only part of the solution. Here, CBT (behavioural therapy) comes hand in hand with medication and is something that teaches you how to cope with these situations. In fact you don't have to take any medication, you can do CBT alone, but the sheer racing thoughts that it sounds like it has been long enough in your mind that it would probably dictate Luvox/something else + a benzodiazepine and/or propranolol to get it under enough control that you can slowly ditch the medication and it will get better. Again, just a guess -- you need a psychopharmacologist/psychiatrist to help you with this. This is not an uncommon set of symptoms and they are manageable.
Best wishes
-- tidingsJay
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 17:08:04
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » Wolf Dreamer, posted by yxibow on November 28, 2006, at 16:38:46
No inderal if you have a thyroid condition. Mine had to give me 25mg of lopressor instead when I first went on an ad. Love Phillipa
Posted by fenix on November 28, 2006, at 18:25:40
In reply to Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what meds?, posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 15:17:59
> I saw on 60 Minutes about a drug called propranolol, which blocks adrenlian and other chemicals that cause racing thoughts, and whatnot apparently. It also is used to help angina, which I may have since I get no exercise, and my heart does feel sore at times.
> http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsDrugs/Propranololcd.html
>
> Its a beta-blocker, one of many.
>
> Are there any beta blockers that do not cause memory problems, and do not have a list of scary and potentially fatal side effects?
>
> I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for something, staring me down, touching me, or standing close to me for the purpose of intimidation.
>
> What medications could I take, that will work? Has anyone else had anxiety like mine, worrying about things racing through their head every day, constantly, unable to stop it? What works and hasn't worked for you.Opiates. This is my default answer to anything anxiety and depression related. If I ever find anything more effective than an opiate I will start using that as my answer.
Benzodiazepines. This is my second answer. They are very effective with anxiety and the side-effects tend to be minimal and not bothersome.
Kratom is quite amazing, do more research on it.
Posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 20:49:36
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by fenix on November 28, 2006, at 18:25:40
> Opiates. This is my default answer to anything anxiety and depression related. If I ever find anything more effective than an opiate I will start using that as my answer.
When I google "opiates" it just list various illegal drugs. Are you refering to opium, heroin, and morphine?
Posted by notfred on November 28, 2006, at 21:06:23
In reply to legal? » fenix, posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 20:49:36
> When I google "opiates" it just list various
> illegal drugs. Are you refering to opium, heroin, > and morphine?
Those are all legal, or at least they can be.
Opium is in pargorics. Heroin under the name diamorphine, is a legal prescription drug in the United Kingdom & morphine is a common pain med.
Posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 21:43:51
In reply to Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what meds?, posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 28, 2006, at 15:17:59
I think fenix may be referring to buprenorphine, which is a synthetic opiate normally used to help detox herion addicts. Some people on this board have managed to get prescriptions of bupe from their pdocs for anxiety and depression. Kratom is a herb that has opiate and cocaine-like effects. I've tried it myself and the results are very nice. Not sure about availablilty in the US though.
Beta blockers do not help so much with feelings of anxiety, more with the physical symptoms of sweating and shaking etc. Some beta blockers made me feel more anxious. I think pindolol is particularly recommeded where a person is at risk of developing depression.
I imagine benzos would be very effective for the problems you describe, though SSRIs like Lexapro and Paxil are more widely acceptable first line treatments.
Good luck.
Q
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 15:42:28
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what meds? » Wolf Dreamer, posted by Quintal on November 28, 2006, at 21:43:51
Kratom is available in the US but its legal status is at best dubious (because of our analogue law):
"The Federal Analogue Act defines an analog as a substance which is 'substantially similar' to a scheduled substance and has either an effect 'similar to or greater than' a controlled substance or is thought to have such an effect. The law fails to define what 'substantially similar' means, nor does it try to clarify what would constitute a 'similar or greater' effect."
http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/law/analog/analog_info1.shtml
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:04:20
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 15:42:28
>I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a >situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop >someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for >something, staring me down, touching me, or >standing close to me for the purpose of >intimidation.
Does this happen often? Not that drugs can't help, but if you are being bullied I wouldn't take drugs to forget about it, I would speak to somebody who can help you.
If this is happening to you, it should't be, and you shouldn't be forced to live in fear because of it happening.
I know easier said than done, but its the truth.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 17:10:22
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 15:42:28
It's always risky to introduce a new drug in the US. I know here in the UK most head shops refuse to export their legal cannabis substitutes etc. to the US in fear of them being prohibited and the UK legislators following suit.
Q
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 17:22:18
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 17:10:22
The US (probably the world) is strange. I was just in Los Angeles last weekend and the weekly had ads all over it for medical marihuana, including free samples.
Made me laugh (not that I think treatment is funny, but our drug policy is so crazy).
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 17:56:02
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 17:22:18
Hmmmm. What next? We're already seeing people on this board being prescribed opiates for depression and anxiety. I am aware of people advocating the use of coca leaves and coca leaf tea to treat the same conditions. Even crack cocaine has been used successfully to treat arthritis without abuse problems (in the elderly sample community that was studied)!
Q
Posted by notfred on November 29, 2006, at 18:39:18
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 17:56:02
> Hmmmm. What next?
It is not the drug that is the problem it is what people do with them that is the problem.Cocaine is used in some plastic surgery procedures.
My plastic surgeon said it is prefered as a numbing agent from some procedures.
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:49:47
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by notfred on November 29, 2006, at 18:39:18
I agree, and I'm all for it.
Q
Posted by Crazy Horse on November 29, 2006, at 19:13:14
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:04:20
> >I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a >situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop >someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for >something, staring me down, touching me, or >standing close to me for the purpose of >intimidation.
>
> Does this happen often? Not that drugs can't help, but if you are being bullied I wouldn't take drugs to forget about it, I would speak to somebody who can help you.
>
> If this is happening to you, it should't be, and you shouldn't be forced to live in fear because of it happening.
>
> I know easier said than done, but its the truth.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Personally i think you have OCD and social anxiety disorder. I think you would benefit from medication,i.e. an antidepressant..probably start out w/an ssri like Paxil, and then possibly an snri, tca, and last but not least an MAOI. If your anxiety is very high i think adding a benzodiazapine like Klonopin would be of help. I would highly recommend counseling along with the medication.Of course this is only my personal opinion, and i am not a Doctor. The first thing i would recommend is a Board Certified Psychiatrist.
Good Luck.
-MJ
Posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 20:48:39
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 17:56:02
Honestly I always liked the idea of the opiates. Depression does cause pain that they can seem to ease (but I don't think addiction is a good trade-off).
I was hoping for more from the agonist-antagonist compounds, but at least its got us thinking more in that direction (I've seen recent ads on TV talking about pain in regards to depression).
Doesn't tramadol have mixed opiod/serotonergic effect?
Cracks long-term effect probably out-weigh any short-term effects (although its said that drug abuse is self-medication).
Posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 22:11:21
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » Quintal, posted by zmg on November 29, 2006, at 20:48:39
Tramadol has some opioid and SSNRI effects, so making it a bit like Effexor and codeine combined in a single drug.
The crack that was used in the study I saw was ground into fine crystals and 'insufflated' by the volunteers. The idea was that the crack crystals would dissolve slowly in the nasal passages - Crack XR of sorts, and it worked. They called their crack preparation Esterene. It was not approved because according to the advisory panel on internal medicine and orthopaedics there is no scientific evidence to support it. <Sigh> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1273578&pageindex=1
I think you're right about the mixed agonist-antagonist drugs being the way forward. This is discussed at length in the 'Intoxication' book.
Q
Posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 30, 2006, at 8:24:50
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:04:20
> >I'm terrorfied about being caught out in a >situation where I'm helpless, unable to stop >someone from speaking to me, pressuring me for >something, staring me down, touching me, or >standing close to me for the purpose of >intimidation.
>
> Does this happen often? Not that drugs can't help, but if you are being bullied I wouldn't take drugs to forget about it, I would speak to somebody who can help you.
>
> If this is happening to you, it should't be, and you shouldn't be forced to live in fear because of it happening.
>
> I know easier said than done, but its the truth.
>
> Linkadge
>I haven't had any problems with bullies since back in school. However, once conditioned, the amygdala never lets up.
I don't live in a safe area though, and I know there are a lot of aggressive, impulsive, and violent people around here, which troubles me greatly.
Anyway, I went to the doctor yesterday, and was prescribed Propranolol and Celexa. They are both generic, and WalMart sells a 30 day supply for $2 for one of them and $4 for the other! Amazing how cheap it is. I started taking them this morning.
Posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 30, 2006, at 8:30:49
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by Crazy Horse on November 29, 2006, at 19:13:14
> Of course this is only my personal opinion, and i am not a Doctor. The first thing i would recommend is a Board Certified Psychiatrist.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> -MJ
>
If the Cerified Psychiatrist is bored, doesn't that make them dangerous? ;) Sorry, lame joke.My doctor seemed rather bored, and peeved I had printed out information to show him, asking for a certain drug. I got it though, and that is all that mattered.
Posted by Quintal on November 30, 2006, at 8:53:37
In reply to Bored Board doctors are dangerous, + termites » Crazy Horse, posted by Wolf Dreamer on November 30, 2006, at 8:30:49
>My doctor seemed rather bored, and peeved I had printed out information to show him, asking for a certain drug. I got it though, and that is all that mattered.
I started a discussion on the topic of pdoc persuasion tactics a while ago. You may find it useful for future drug requests? http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061110/msgs/704183.htmlQ
Posted by zmg on November 30, 2006, at 11:45:51
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » zmg, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 22:11:21
This book sounds too interesting! I've ordered it today!
Can't wait for it to come!
Posted by notfred on November 30, 2006, at 21:29:27
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » notfred, posted by Quintal on November 29, 2006, at 18:49:47
> I agree, and I'm all for it.
>
> Q
Cocaine was no fun when it is was used as a numbing agent during numerious surgeries to put my face back together after a bad car crash a decade ago.
Posted by Quintal on November 30, 2006, at 22:41:12
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by notfred on November 30, 2006, at 21:29:27
>Cocaine was no fun when it is was used as a numbing agent during numerious surgeries to put my face back together after a bad car crash a decade ago.
I wouldn't expect it to be fun given the set and setting. Much like having unlimited access morphine isn't much fun to the terminally ill cancer patient.
I think doctors usually use epinephrine as a vasoconstrictor to limit the spread of cocaine into the bloodstream during these procedures, so that would likely put the dampeners on any potential high.
Q
Posted by notfred on November 30, 2006, at 22:55:41
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m » notfred, posted by Quintal on November 30, 2006, at 22:41:12
>
> I think doctors usually use epinephrine as a vasoconstrictor to limit the spread of cocaine into the bloodstream during these procedures, so that would likely put the dampeners on any potential high.
>
> QCocaine itself is a vasoconstrictor.
Posted by Quintal on November 30, 2006, at 23:18:53
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts, fear of bullying, etc. what m, posted by notfred on November 30, 2006, at 21:29:27
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine
"Cocaine as a local anesthetic.
Cocaine was historically useful as a topical anesthetic in eye and nasal surgery, although it is now predominantly used for nasal and lacrimal duct surgery. The major disadvantages of this use are cocaine's intense vasoconstrictor activity and potential for cardiovascular toxicity. Cocaine has since been largely replaced in Western medicine by synthetic local anaesthetics such as benzocaine, proparacaine, and tetracaine though it remains available for use if specified.
***If vasoconstriction is desired for a procedure (as it reduces bleeding), the anesthetic is combined with a vasoconstrictor such as phenylephrine or epinephrine.*** In Australia it is currently prescribed for use as a local anesthetic for conditions such as mouth and lung ulcers. Some Australian ENT specialists occasionally use cocaine within the practice when performing procedures such as nasal cauterization. In this scenario dissolved cocaine is soaked into a ball of cotton wool, which is placed in the nostril for the 10-15 minutes immediately prior to the procedure, thus performing the dual role of both numbing the area to be cauterized and also vasoconstriction.">Cocaine was no fun when it is was used as a numbing agent during numerious surgeries to put my face back together after a bad car crash a decade ago.
It wasn't much fun for me in recreational setting either. 120mg Parnate gave me a stronger hit. Overrated in my view.
Was this when your depression started?
Q
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