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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rosa63 on November 23, 2006, at 9:11:26
I have taken 50 mg of Trazodone and 1 mg of Klonopin at night for years to help me sleep; however, I cannot remember the last time I have had a dream although I feel like I sleep well at night.
Could there be a link between my severe depression and lack of appearent REM sleep? Would a sleep med such as Lunesta or Ambien increase my REM sleep (therefore lifting my depression)?
Posted by Quintal on November 23, 2006, at 11:19:34
In reply to I don't dream!, posted by rosa63 on November 23, 2006, at 9:11:26
Lunesta and Ambien will disrupt normal sleep architecture and reduce REM sleep. They have a weaker sedative/hypnotic effect than the Klonopin you're taking in any case. Have you considered an antidepressant such as Remeron, or the TCA Trimipramine? Both these meds promote REM. The Klonopin will likely suppress it though.
Q
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 23, 2006, at 12:35:30
In reply to Re: I don't dream! » rosa63, posted by Quintal on November 23, 2006, at 11:19:34
Overall, I would have to say yes. But if I didn't dream, which has been the case with some of the meds I have taken over the years, I tried to look at it in a positive way. What do I mean? Well, when you dream, sometimes it has the chance to be a bad dream aka nightmare. I can only speak for myself, but when you have a challenging day with anxiety, depression, worries when you are awake, and then cant get any escape with your sleep, then it's an extra challenging day. So I guess there are pluses and minuses with each.
Posted by notfred on November 23, 2006, at 12:56:01
In reply to I don't dream!, posted by rosa63 on November 23, 2006, at 9:11:26
Some meds cause you to not remember dreaming.
For most people, if all REM dream stage is stopped
they go psychotic quite quickly. A week. If this is not happening then I would not assume you stopped dreaming.You onlt have a little time to remember your dreams;
just after waking. Once you are awake and moving if you have not already remembered your dreams it is unlikely you will later.
Posted by tensor on November 23, 2006, at 15:24:03
In reply to I don't dream!, posted by rosa63 on November 23, 2006, at 9:11:26
I agree with Quintal to try Remeron or Trimipramine, Trimipramine is often used to promote sleep. If you're taking your meds for sleep, have you or your pdoc considered zopiclone?
/Mattias
Posted by Caedmon on November 23, 2006, at 22:37:55
In reply to Re: I don't dream!, posted by notfred on November 23, 2006, at 12:56:01
> Some meds cause you to not remember dreaming.
> For most people, if all REM dream stage is stopped
> they go psychotic quite quickly. A week.Huh? Reference please?
I don't believe REM sleep is essential in humans but I may not understand the subject.
- Chris
Posted by Caedmon on November 23, 2006, at 22:39:41
In reply to I don't dream!, posted by rosa63 on November 23, 2006, at 9:11:26
> Could there be a link between my severe depression and lack of appearent REM sleep? Would a sleep med such as Lunesta or Ambien increase my REM sleep (therefore lifting my depression)?
Usually, *reducing* REM sleep helps depression. Most antidepressants suppress REM sleep to certain extents.
- Chris
Posted by Caedmon on November 23, 2006, at 22:42:30
In reply to Re: I don't dream! » rosa63, posted by Quintal on November 23, 2006, at 11:19:34
> Lunesta and Ambien will disrupt normal sleep architecture and reduce REM sleep. They have a weaker sedative/hypnotic effect than the Klonopin you're taking in any case. Have you considered an antidepressant such as Remeron, or the TCA Trimipramine? Both these meds promote REM. The Klonopin will likely suppress it though.
>
> QI don't know about Remeron but I suspect trimipramine (or any TCA) will suppress REM sleep. Maybe it is an except to the TCA rule, i don't know.
The only antidepressant I know of that promotes REM sleep rather than suppress it is Wellbutrin. I think there are a handful of others, but I don't remember which ones.
- Chris
Posted by Quintal on November 23, 2006, at 23:08:05
In reply to Re: I don't dream! » Quintal, posted by Caedmon on November 23, 2006, at 22:42:30
Remeron is often used in sleep apnea to help increase sleep efficiency: http://www.remedyfind.com/treatments/43/1080/.
The effects of trimipramine on REM sleep are described in this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimipramine.Here is an article on REM sleep that contains much more detailed information: http://www.thecni.org/reviews/10-1-p24-kramer.htm .
Q
Posted by notfred on November 24, 2006, at 0:05:39
In reply to Re: I don't dream! » notfred, posted by Caedmon on November 23, 2006, at 22:37:55
>
> I don't believe REM sleep is essential in humans but I may not understand the subject.
>
> - Chris
Sleep deprivation increases both NREM 4 and REM sleep propensity, which tends to indicate they are the most important stages of sleep:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1697239&dopt=Abstract
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htmhttp://www.sleepnet.com/forum1/messages/1015.html
"Some studies have shown that if you get total REM deprivation you may end up experiencing some dream activity while awake and appearing a little of the rocker or worse. They do not let these types of studies to go on long in humans, but in animals they will appear to be acting out dreams in there waking state."
Still, there are some people who do not have REM sleep and are fine. Deprive rats of REM sleep and they die after a few weeks.
Posted by rosa63 on November 24, 2006, at 12:21:05
In reply to Re: I don't dream! » rosa63, posted by Quintal on November 23, 2006, at 11:19:34
Have you considered an antidepressant such as Remeron, or the TCA Trimipramine? >
> QCurrently, I am taking Cymbalta with absolutely no success. I would like to try Remeron next. From what I read, this could be my miracle drug to combat depression, anxiety, and insomnia (after I get past the weight gain and drowsiness)!
This is the end of the thread.
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