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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 6:43:58
this is what we are all curious about: can a well-conducted and rigorous study establish statistical superiority of one placebo over another? Which placebo has a more benign side effect profile? Can pdocs gain some insight into which type of placebo they should prescribe for their patients using RCT data? This is the first study into what is bound to be an expanding area of interest, as the costs of drug development appear to have slowed the process of getting new drugs onto the market- placebos do not tax the chemists' ingenuity as much, albeit it does a require a bit of a paradigm shift on the part of the marketing branch :-)
-z
Posted by James K on February 4, 2006, at 11:53:26
In reply to results of placebo v. placebo study, posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 6:43:58
I noticed that the arm strength didn't improve as much with the sham acupuncture. We need to investigate the effects of poking people for no reason and it's relationship to arm function.
I would be embarrased if I ever found out that the reason vicodin works for me is the tylenol.
I hope the placebo pills didn't have sugar or something that might have skewed the results.
James K
Posted by ed_uk on February 4, 2006, at 12:04:51
In reply to results of placebo v. placebo study, posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 6:43:58
Hi Zeugie
What do you think of this........
Ed
Posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 13:19:43
In reply to Re: results of placebo v. placebo study » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on February 4, 2006, at 12:04:51
hi Ed,
it's the weekend, you know I'm tired, if you can babblemail me a source of French red placebo pills I would be most grateful.
-z
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2006, at 20:42:08
In reply to Re: results of placebo v. placebo study » ed_uk, posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 13:19:43
Ha Ha zeugma. Sorry your're tired. The studies to say the least didn't impress me. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 5, 2006, at 12:09:27
In reply to results of placebo v. placebo study, posted by zeugma on February 4, 2006, at 6:43:58
> this is what we are all curious about: can a well-conducted and rigorous study establish statistical superiority of one placebo over another? Which placebo has a more benign side effect profile? Can pdocs gain some insight into which type of placebo they should prescribe for their patients using RCT data? This is the first study into what is bound to be an expanding area of interest, as the costs of drug development appear to have slowed the process of getting new drugs onto the market- placebos do not tax the chemists' ingenuity as much, albeit it does a require a bit of a paradigm shift on the part of the marketing branch :-)
>
> -z
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16452103&query_hl=11&itool=pubmed_docsumIf these placebos can have substantial effect in reducing symptoms, then why is it that hypnosis doesn't have a medical application?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 5, 2006, at 12:13:44
In reply to Re: results of placebo v. placebo study » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on February 4, 2006, at 12:04:51
> Hi Zeugie
>
> What do you think of this........
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12640329&query_hl=35&itool=pubmed_docsum
>
> EdThat is just plain bizarre. It was an open trial. The subjects knew the pills were inert. Yet four people dropped out due to adverse effects, and anxiety was reduced by 63%? Amazing.
Being an open trial, however, you have to wonder just how much interaction occurred between the subjects and the doctors. Wanting to please the doctor can be a powerful confound, apart from the placebo aspect. Is there any placebo effect in an open trial?
Lar
Posted by Racer on February 5, 2006, at 13:17:27
In reply to Re: results of placebo v. placebo study » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on February 5, 2006, at 12:13:44
> > Hi Zeugie
> >
> > What do you think of this........
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12640329&query_hl=35&itool=pubmed_docsum
> >
> > Ed
>
> That is just plain bizarre. It was an open trial. The subjects knew the pills were inert. Yet four people dropped out due to adverse effects, and anxiety was reduced by 63%? Amazing.
>
> Being an open trial, however, you have to wonder just how much interaction occurred between the subjects and the doctors. Wanting to please the doctor can be a powerful confound, apart from the placebo aspect. Is there any placebo effect in an open trial?
>
> Lar
>My guess would be "yes, there is a placebo effect in open trials, too." And not because it's psychosomatic, either. Those "inert" pills? How do we know that they're truly entirely inert in every way in every body? Obviously, we can't know that exactly, but how do we know that the 'inert' pills weren't, say, filled with cornstarch, and given to someone whose body has a hard time metabolizing starches without some fat? Or that they didn't raise someone's blood sugar? My guess is that there was some effect from the inert materials, and that "inert" in this case means "we don't know of anything it does, so it doesn't do anything."
Of course, that's based not on any knowledge, but only on my own superstitions. No doubt someone here knows much more (id est: anything at all), and can set me straight on this.
But I do find this an interesting subject. Who knows? Maybe we'll find that cornstarch is an effective treatment for something, just because the placebo had an effect in these studies...
Posted by ed_uk on February 5, 2006, at 17:08:28
In reply to Re: results of placebo v. placebo study » Larry Hoover, posted by Racer on February 5, 2006, at 13:17:27
The subjects weren't very ill though, so it's not surprising that they improved!
Ed
This is the end of the thread.
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