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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by raybakes on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:50
"Estrogen control of central neurotransmission: effect on mood, mental state, and memory"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8818400
looked interesting!
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:50
In reply to estrogen and the brain, posted by raybakes on November 26, 2004, at 13:05:18
I would say that this is nothing any peri-menopausal or menopausal woman didn't aleady suspect!!
I'm glad there are now studies to back it up. I've found that 2mg micronized estradiol can make me almost manic and hyper-irritable, but none (and sometimes, 1mg) turns me into a forgetful, sad-depressed weeper! I have to monitor my dosage in the 1.5mg range. Love the stuff!
Now, progesterone, there's a different story! Don't take it, makes me suicidally depressed and gives me loads of physical side effects. (And believe me, I've had a long time of experimenting, from contraceptive pill days, thru' menopause!!).
Thanks
Jas
Posted by jujube on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:51
In reply to estrogen and the brain, posted by raybakes on November 26, 2004, at 13:05:18
> "Estrogen control of central neurotransmission: effect on mood, mental state, and memory"
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8818400
>
> looked interesting!
Very interesting! FYI, when I was researching antidepressants and other therapies for depression and anxiety, I visited the Remedy Find website. Hormone replacement therapy (estrogen) was reviewed, and one of the people reviewing it was a man. No, he was not reviewing it on behalf of his wife, he was reviewing it on his own behalf. He is a 50 year old, and was being treated for depression with Wellbutrin and Provigil. For unrelated reasons, he started taking 50 ug (0.5 mg) of Lynoral (ethinyl estradiol), and found that his mood brightened and his memory improved. At the time of his review, he had been using the estrogen for several months, without adverse effects, and was actually able to stop using the Wellbutrin.Tamara
Posted by jujube on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:51
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » raybakes, posted by jasmineneroli on November 26, 2004, at 19:34:51
> Now, progesterone, there's a different story! Don't take it, makes me suicidally depressed and gives me loads of physical side effects. (And believe me, I've had a long time of experimenting, from contraceptive pill days, thru' menopause!!).
Jas,
I know what you mean about the progesterone. In August, I was given my first shot (which ended up being my last) of Depo Provera (synthetic progestin birth control). It stays in your system for 3 months, so if you have an adverse
reaction or unbearable side effects, you just have to wait it out. About two and a half weeks after the shot, I thought I was going out of my mind. I could not stop crying, I was angry and irritable, was more depressed than I had ever been in my life (and I was on Effexor at the time), was thinking constantly about death (not suicide, but just my own death and how nice it would be), exhausted, and throwing up every morning and sometimes at night for close to two months. It was horrible. I am only now just starting to feel somewhat better (one month after the shot was to have worn off), but have had to switch antidepressants to see if it will improve my mood.I wonder if I can add some estrogen to see how I react and to see if it helps my symptoms? Did you need a prescription for your estrogen?
Thanks
Tamara
Posted by cherylann on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:51
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » jasmineneroli, posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 20:08:59
Progesterone cream has made a world of difference for me. No more horrible mood swings.
Estrogen on the other hand makes me angry. I was told that if your libido is low, progesterone is what you need. If libido is ok, estrogen. I don't think low libido due to AD's counts, though.
Just thought I'd throw that out there for info.BTW, according to a magazine article I read, the hormone creams that you can get in the health food stores work as well or better than pill form.
cherylann
Posted by jujube on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:52
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by cherylann on November 27, 2004, at 21:28:56
Thanks. I am not sure if my progesterone is out of whack because of the Depo Provera or not. Perhaps the Depo caused an imbalance in my progesterone and estrogen levels. I am thinking about trying some Wild Yam to see if it helps, but I don't know much about it. I am doing research now to see if it is something that might be useful for me. Maybe I will try some progesterone cream as well. Thanks for the suggestion and sharing your experience with it.
Tamara
> Progesterone cream has made a world of difference for me. No more horrible mood swings.
> Estrogen on the other hand makes me angry. I was told that if your libido is low, progesterone is what you need. If libido is ok, estrogen. I don't think low libido due to AD's counts, though.
> Just thought I'd throw that out there for info.
>
> BTW, according to a magazine article I read, the hormone creams that you can get in the health food stores work as well or better than pill form.
> cherylann
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:52
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » jasmineneroli, posted by jujube on November 26, 2004, at 20:08:59
> I know what you mean about the progesterone. In August, I was given my first shot (which ended up being my last) of Depo Provera (synthetic progestin birth control). It stays in your system for 3 months, so if you have an adverse
> reaction or unbearable side effects, you just have to wait it out. About two and a half weeks after the shot, I thought I was going out of my mind. I could not stop crying, I was angry and irritable, was more depressed than I had ever been in my life (and I was on Effexor at the time), was thinking constantly about death (not suicide, but just my own death and how nice it would be), exhausted, and throwing up every morning and sometimes at night for close to two months. It was horrible. I am only now just starting to feel somewhat better (one month after the shot was to have worn off), but have had to switch antidepressants to see if it will improve my mood.*** My sister also had the exact same reaction to depo-provera. I think the females in my family have a genetically linked problem with progesterone. Especially when taken alone.
> I wonder if I can add some estrogen to see how I react and to see if it helps my symptoms? Did you need a prescription for your estrogen?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tamara* Presumably the Depo injection will cease effectiveness soon, if you had it in August????
I would definitely replace it with a dual hormone contraceptive, instead of repeating the shot,on the due date. Find the lowest does progesterone you can. You might even consider an IUD instead. (Messing around with Oral Contraceptives caused a lot of my mental health problems).
Yes, I have a presciption for my estradiol. It's brand name is Estrace and it is not a synthetic estradiol, like ethinyl-estradiol. I don't know if you can get a preparation of it for contraception. It's very common for HRT, but more expensive than synthetic estrogens.
There are a lot of plant derived progesterone creams around, and you can find as many research studies that say they work, as say they don't!It should be noted that estrogen is formed from progesterone in the body.
There's an excellent book about hormones, mood and mental illness........except the title escapes me at the moment (sorry!!!!!). I will look for it and post back.
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:53
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by cherylann on November 27, 2004, at 21:28:56
I have a friend, also menopausal, on HRT. She was on a cyclical system where you take estrogen only for 7 days then add progesterone for 14 and then nothing for 7 days ( I guess to simulate a "normal" menstrual cycle). It's a very common HRT approach.
She found that the days without progesterone were unbearable. She would cry for no reason and get very sad. She changed to both hormones, full time and is doing well.
It just illustrates that we are all so different!!!
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:54
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by jasmineneroli on November 28, 2004, at 13:33:14
Hi Tamara:
Here's the book.
It's awesome, I recommend it for any woman. Try to get it from your local library.
"Women's Moods - What every woman should know about hormones, the brain, and emotional health" by Deborah Sichel and Jeanne Watson-Driscoll.Jas
Posted by jujube on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:55
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by jasmineneroli on November 28, 2004, at 13:33:14
> > I know what you mean about the progesterone. In August, I was given my first shot (which ended up being my last) of Depo Provera (synthetic progestin birth control). It stays in your system for 3 months, so if you have an adverse
> > reaction or unbearable side effects, you just have to wait it out. About two and a half weeks after the shot, I thought I was going out of my mind. I could not stop crying, I was angry and irritable, was more depressed than I had ever been in my life (and I was on Effexor at the time), was thinking constantly about death (not suicide, but just my own death and how nice it would be), exhausted, and throwing up every morning and sometimes at night for close to two months. It was horrible. I am only now just starting to feel somewhat better (one month after the shot was to have worn off), but have had to switch antidepressants to see if it will improve my mood.
>
> *** My sister also had the exact same reaction to depo-provera. I think the females in my family have a genetically linked problem with progesterone. Especially when taken alone.
>
> > I wonder if I can add some estrogen to see how I react and to see if it helps my symptoms? Did you need a prescription for your estrogen?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Tamara
>
> * Presumably the Depo injection will cease effectiveness soon, if you had it in August????
> I would definitely replace it with a dual hormone contraceptive, instead of repeating the shot,on the due date. Find the lowest does progesterone you can. You might even consider an IUD instead. (Messing around with Oral Contraceptives caused a lot of my mental health problems).
> Yes, I have a presciption for my estradiol. It's brand name is Estrace and it is not a synthetic estradiol, like ethinyl-estradiol. I don't know if you can get a preparation of it for contraception. It's very common for HRT, but more expensive than synthetic estrogens.
> There are a lot of plant derived progesterone creams around, and you can find as many research studies that say they work, as say they don't!
>
> It should be noted that estrogen is formed from progesterone in the body.
> There's an excellent book about hormones, mood and mental illness........except the title escapes me at the moment (sorry!!!!!). I will look for it and post back.
> Jas
>Thanks Jas. Yes, the shot has "expired". I was due for the second one on October 20, but didn't go. I have been told that the effects sometimes can linger for a month or so after the shot is supposed to have worn off because of the fact that the shot is given in a muscle. I am certainly feeling better than I was, but I still am suffering from fatigue and a low mood.
Before you were prescribed the estrogen, did you have your hormone levels tested? My doctor already did a FSH test a number of months ago, which came back normal, so I don't think she will be willing to do any hormone testing. I guess it can't hurt to ask.
>Tamara
Posted by jujube on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:55
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain - THE BOOK!!, posted by jasmineneroli on November 28, 2004, at 13:56:28
Thanks so much. I will try to get my hands on a copy.
Tamara
Posted by raybakes on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:55
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by jasmineneroli on November 28, 2004, at 13:33:14
>
> * Presumably the Depo injection will cease effectiveness soon, if you had it in August????
> I would definitely replace it with a dual hormone contraceptive, instead of repeating the shot,on the due date. Find the lowest does progesterone you can. You might even consider an IUD instead. (Messing around with Oral Contraceptives caused a lot of my mental health problems).
> Yes, I have a presciption for my estradiol. It's brand name is Estrace and it is not a synthetic estradiol, like ethinyl-estradiol. I don't know if you can get a preparation of it for contraception. It's very common for HRT, but more expensive than synthetic estrogens.
> There are a lot of plant derived progesterone creams around, and you can find as many research studies that say they work, as say they don't!
>
> It should be noted that estrogen is formed from progesterone in the body.
> There's an excellent book about hormones, mood and mental illness........except the title escapes me at the moment (sorry!!!!!). I will look for it and post back.
> Jas
>
>Hi all,
liked this article from mercola.com...
http://www.mercola.com/article/progesterone/cream.htm#
and this..
"a synthetic progestin analogue such as Provera (medroxyprogesterone acetate) is a molecular modification beyond bio-identical progesterone. But perhaps my GP does not. She may even have been led to believe Provera is natural progesterone. And it's this molecular change (to patent a drug) that has the potential to cause serious side effects in the body. After all, the body sees as natural that which has the same configuration."
Liked mercola's point about biorhythms - to take a hormone analogue in a high dose seems unwise. Disrupting delicate biorhythms is something I haven't seen discussed much. Analogues of hormones don't seem a good idea, when the natural versions are available, and also an analogue can't be metabolised through the whole steroid pathway like the natural steroid.
Has anyone tried the 'tri-est' estrogen with a natural balance of estradiol, estrone and estriol?
Ray
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:56
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on November 28, 2004, at 14:45:08
> Has anyone tried the 'tri-est' estrogen with a natural balance of estradiol, estrone and estriol?
>
> Ray
>
Hi Ray,
Well I know Triest has 80% estriol, 10% estradiol, 10% estroneand Biest ahs 80% estriol, 20% estradiol
or you can just get plain estradiol (supposedly the more "potent" form. ..with estriol therefore supposedly the least dangerous form (as far as cancer goes)..but I don't think the knowledge is that great
And estrone - estradiol can convert to each other in body, although there is concerns about estrone pathways
And they all metabolise presumably to estriol
Oh yes, and when pregnant ..3rd trimester? we are suppposed to have more estriol in our bodies..so if that felt great , one supposedly feels better with estriol..although I think we had a lot of progesterone too...
Well that's the story anyway.testing for estrogen levels best done day 13,14 of 28 day cycle..count backwards ..*grins*
testing for progesterone around day 20-21...also count backwards from 28 days..with day 1 being first day of menses... (so if cycle is going to be shorter you test earlier etc)so its best to have estradiol tested mid cycle ..and progesterone (and estradiol as well if you like) tested at day 21 say...these are the peaks usually
Now what I can't find out is exactly what ranges/average the typical premenstrual female(nonpregnant and healthy and not overweight) is really supposed to have as far as ratios of estradiol/estriol/estrone ....
I bet its NOT the triest ratio.
I'd like to know exactly what the ratio IS in a normal say 25 to 35 yr old female who is not over weight and a non smoker, I'd love to see any research on it. (smoking lowers levels)..and fat makes estrone I think?
I heard that until recently they used to test more hormones etc. on males (females too complicated)....so that was real helpful!
Progesterone converts to estrogen a litle but far more to cortisol,...which is why it feels great for most when you start on it..but a lot of girls feel bad after a year of progesterone only although I'm sure there are exceptions.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has stayed on progesterone only for longer than a year..without going a bit cushingoid-like. (I'm sure girls exist)
Jan
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:56
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 28, 2004, at 15:54:31
Read the book I quote, Jan, if you can get it.
It answers all those questions.
It has a section that shows by graphing, the ebbs & flows of the different hormones, during menstrual cycles. It also discusses post-partum depression, PMS & PMDD, including diff types & symptoms. It has a big diary-like table that you can use to plot EVERY symptom type you get, and when - it's extremely helpful to understand YOUR own unique hormone responses.
Jas
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:57
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » tealady, posted by jasmineneroli on November 28, 2004, at 17:38:30
> Read the book I quote, Jan, if you can get it.
> It answers all those questions.
> It has a section that shows by graphing, the ebbs & flows of the different hormones, during menstrual cycles. It also discusses post-partum depression, PMS & PMDD, including diff types & symptoms. It has a big diary-like table that you can use to plot EVERY symptom type you get, and when - it's extremely helpful to understand YOUR own unique hormone responses.
> JasThanks Jas,
A lot of books are coming out with progesterone and estradiol (and FSH, LH) menstrual cycle plotted ..but I haven't come across estriol and estrone at all?..and its the estradiol/estriol/estrone ratios I'm interested in. I'd even expect them to be different througout the month.Does the book graph estriol and estrone too as well as estradiol?
I've read the estradiol is the "main" estrogen so that is the only one usually considered...so why is Triest and Biest so low on it if that is so?
Why not more a natural mix?... well that's what I'm trying to see if its known??Jan
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:57
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » jasmineneroli, posted by jujube on November 28, 2004, at 14:00:38
Yes, I had FSH levels tested at different times, along with B12 and Folic Acid testing (because deficiences can give similar symptoms).
At first (this is when I was acutely peri-menopausal, before generalized hot flashes, but during extreme insomnia, night time sweats and headaches). My FSH levels at that point were "in the normal range". So I was given the OC pill to help control the symptoms, with the rationale, that I was not yet menopausal, or near to it. So ' we (GP) will just help keep your hormone levels "even" '.
This proved to be an horrendous decision, because I simply couldn't tolerate the progestins. I tried 4 different brands/combo's over about 7 months, becoming more and more depressed and withdrawn, to the point of suicidal ideation. My anxiety became worse too, by the end of this trial. My poor GP even said she thought she had "made me sick", by this route.At this point my FSH was done again and was high, indicating I was in the beginning of menopause. So, within 7 months, my FSH readings had changed greatly.
It's been done since, and has changed yet again.
Deborah Sichel's book, goes into all this, recommending all kinds of testing and the different forms of female hormone drugs.One of the things she says, which may be pertinent to you, is (and I'm trying to remember it properly!) that every woman should have her hormone levels tested early in adulthood as a BASELINE for her. Then get tested regularly, so that she can montior the changes, note symptoms & add hormone supplementation as necessary, ALL ALONG!!!
She also does a great job of describing emotional/mood reactions and how our (females') lives typically unfold (responsibilities, childbirth, child rearing, children leaving the nest) along with our hormonal changes. She has a good analogy of life stressors happening along the way, being like little "tremors". Eventually, given the right stress/hormonal circumstances, an "earthquake" happens. Enter anxiety/panic/depression = "nervous breakdown".
I found it fit me to a "t"!
I'm gonna have to get the book again, because it's about 2 years since I read it, and so much has happened to me, in terms of mental health, hormones and "life", since then!
Jas
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:58
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » jasmineneroli, posted by tealady on November 28, 2004, at 17:51:57
Hi Jan:
I don't remember if the book plots estriol and estrone ( I don't think so), but it does go into explanations about them.
I seem to recall that the emphasis on estriol over estradiol had to do with lower side effects, better tolerance, the phenomenon of "estrogen dominance" and also worries about cancer (safer profile). Also, I think that estriol can convert into estradiol.
There's so much I don't remember about my research (which I did a lot of, about 3 years ago)!!!!!! Additionally, there may well be new findings, since then.
I'll have to review it all over again!
I'll get back to you.
Jas
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 22:27:58
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain » tealady, posted by jasmineneroli on November 29, 2004, at 13:35:57
> Hi Jan:
> I don't remember if the book plots estriol and estrone ( I don't think so), but it does go into explanations about them.
> I seem to recall that the emphasis on estriol over estradiol had to do with lower side effects, better tolerance, the phenomenon of "estrogen dominance" and also worries about cancer (safer profile). Also, I think that estriol can convert into estradiol.
> There's so much I don't remember about my research (which I did a lot of, about 3 years ago)!!!!!! Additionally, there may well be new findings, since then.
> I'll have to review it all over again!
> I'll get back to you.
> JasThanks Jas,
Estradiol converts to estriol..as does estrone. (in my previous post)
And yes they are the reasons they cite for using estriol mainly. I'd really like to know what ratios tthe blood does have ..even if just at midcycle. You'd think someone would have tested the 3 ratios together!
And estrogen dominance is not a problem for me. I doubt if its a problem for anyone not overweight, but I guess there are always exceptions.
The weight factor comes in as fat..especially around stomach makes estrone, which may, I guess cause estrogen dominance.
Then again some of the environmental estrogens may come into play there too.
I've actually never heard of anyone with blood tests who show "estrogen dominance" though. (if taken on correct days)Be great to hear if that book does mention figures or ratios for esriol, estrone and estradiol.
Jan
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 4:01:29
In reply to Re: estrogen and the brain, posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 16:34:13
> I've actually never heard of anyone with blood tests who show "estrogen dominance" though. (if taken on correct days)
>
>Hi Jan,
this abstract talks about the local production of estradiol in breast tissue - so estrogen dominance could be local to inflammation within tissue and not show in the blood?
'Local biosynthesis and metabolism of oestrogens in the human breast.'
Ray
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