![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 48. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 14:52:17
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to ...a worried mom, posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 14:35:10
jlo820,
You wrote,[...millions of children and adults have been helped by these drugs...].[...what is the point in your posts?...].
The purpose of this public forum is for different points of view to be expressed. The point of view that I am expressing here is in regards to the initiator of the thread in their request for infomation in order to make an informed decision as to whether to have their child be put on this drug type. Your point of view that [...millions of children and adults have been helped by these drugs...] is welcome just as my point of view is welcome here. I would be glad to hear of stories from any of those that have been helped by thses drugs so that this discussion could be representative of other points of view.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 15:07:48
In reply to To worried Mom Concerta response, posted by Henryo on August 17, 2003, at 14:35:07
Henryo,
You wrote,[...all that stuff about amphetamines...]
Could you clarify what you are referring to in your phrase,[...all that stuff about amphetamines....]? If you could, then I could respond accoringly when I find out what the "stuff" that you are referring to is.
Lou
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 15:26:07
In reply to Lou's reply to jlo820, » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 14:52:17
Take it easy Lou, calm down, no reason to be on the defensive. We all know what the purpose of this board is, but thanks for reminding us. It was just odd that you were positng link after link and making historical links between those who take meds to help them with ADD and Afold Hitler. I think we all know where you stand on the issue.
Also, my point of view (that millions have been helped by these drugs) is not a point of view - it is FACT.
Have a great day!
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 15:36:12
In reply to Lou's reply to jlo820, » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 14:52:17
Lou -
Also, you may consider checking the credibility of some of the information you are looking at before you post it here.
Sites like ritalinDEATH.com and information from Peter Breggin (I think we all know who he is) may not exactly be objective.
Just something you might want to consider.
Posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 15:53:53
In reply to Re: Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 11:19:56
Larry,
I have experience having taught school age children for years in religious ed.
Also there is the training I receive from my agency. I'm also a grad student working toward an MA in Counseling Psychology.
I've been working in my current setting for over a year now and I've observed many children who have received treatment with adderal, ritalin, and cylert. I notice that usually children are able to focus better while on their medication. Like I said, I'm not a doctor, nor am I studying to be a doctor. I think I stressed that in my post. I can only comment on the behavior of the children I work with. I work in the milieu and I do behavior modification.
I am definitely qualified according to the laws of the State of California.
Not sure what you are looking for in all of that.
Blessings,
Simcha
> Simcha,
> You wrote,[...I am a Mental Health counselor who works with some ADD children...].
> Could you tell us what type of certification, if any, that you may hold to qualify for the position that you describe as a "Mental Health counselor"? Also,could you tell the setting that you are in that you are working with some ADD children?
> If you could, then I could have a better understanding of the situation that you are describing hear and be better able to respond to your post and the initiator of this thread accordingly.
> Lou
Posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 15:55:52
In reply to Lou's reply to jlo820, » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 14:52:17
Ritalin and Prozac, as a result of their extensive prescribing to segments of the American public, have excited much heated debate involving both health professionals and what I will term "interested and informed/misinformed patients, relations of patients, and interested bystanders".
This debate quite naturally results in the formation of two extremist camps:
"This Drug Cures (X) No Doubt About it!!"
"This Drug only makes (X) Worse and is Evil and a Menace to Society!!"
The problem lies in how psychoactive drugs are tested and how patients are treated by orthodox medical professionals.
In drug testing, the accepted approach is the double-blind trial which is analyzed statisically. The problem with this is that human beings are treated as identical "black boxes" with the same problem. For example, they are all "depressed" or all have "ADHD". There should be no surprise that patient responses are all over the map when you consider that:
A) Every human being has a unique combination of DNA and life history (including diet, stress, injuries, drug use/abuse, and exposure to toxic substances).
B) Syndromes overlap. One could concievably have, for example, mild OCD along with ADD without hyperactivity and yet get lumped in with everyone under the umbrella of "ADHD".
C) There can be multiple root causes for each particular symptom, i.e. there are more things that can go wrong in the brain than there are accepted symptoms that something is wrong. What the patient "feels" in a subjective and qualitative sense may not be adequately reflected in a list of symptoms.
Thus a psychoactive drug comes onto the market after having had a "good" double blind trial for FDA acceptance. If it becomes popular it ends up being widely prescribed to patients who are asked about their history in a very cursory manner and with virtually no diagnostic tests being done (i.e. blood tests or brain imaging like SPECT). Naturally some people have horrendous side-effects and their stories become fodder for the "Evil Drug" partisans. Meanwhile the many people who are helped consider it important to throw their weight in with the "Great Drug" partisans.
The real answer is that we need greater discrimination in identifing the real problem(s) and then the ability to scientifically rather than "artistically" tailor treatment for that individual.
"Ask not what disease the person has, rather ask what *person* the disease has."
Neuroscience and MEMS/nanotechnology should be bringing a lot more light to bear on all this within the coming years. Remain hopeful!
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:02:10
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to jlo820,, posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 15:36:12
jlo820,
You wrote,[...sites like ritalindeath.com... might not be exactly be objective...].
In the report given in the site where the child died, the death certificate gave the cause of death as being from long-term use of the drug in ritalin.
Are you saying that that part of the site is not exactly objective? If so, could you clarify why you could indicate that when a doctor gave the cause of death to the child that was taking ritalin? If you could, then I could have a better understanding of what your definition of exact objectivness is and be better able to respond to your post to me.
Lou
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 16:03:20
In reply to The Wonderdrug Panacea and Evil Drug Fallicies, posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 15:55:52
Posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 16:05:29
In reply to Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 8:05:58
> A few months back I posted regarding my 16 yr old son and his ADD problems. At that time he was tried on Wellbutrin and went psychotic on it. He swore he would not touch another drug again for his disorder. That changed, now he's seeing a psychiatrist next week about starting Concerta, which has just been approved in Canada. I'm worried, one of the side-effects is psychosis. Any experiences with this drug would be so appreciated. Thanks
> EssSome people on the board who have a combination of OCD and ADD symptoms and have tried Wellbutrin have had a very adverse reaction to it. Dr. Daniel Amen has done SPECT imaging of patients with both OCD and ADD symptoms and finds metabolic abnormalities in the cingulate gyrus and the pre-frontal lobes and calls the combination "Overfocused ADD". He recommends a number of treatment scheme options for it based on his clinical experience.
I would recommend you and your son look over this website and have your son take Amen's "Brain system checklist".
Posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 16:07:04
In reply to Good Post, DSCH (nm), posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 16:03:20
Posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 16:15:32
In reply to Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 8:05:58
Essence,
Please check out ALL the information on ADHD/ADD treatments. There are many ways to treat this.
Also, please be careful with any "studies" that Peter Breggin writes. He is not an objective scientist at all. He is out to "prove" that all drugs are made by evil drug companies and that the drug companies own the FDA. Thus his point is that any treatment with medication is bad.
Please get a balanced viewpoint, positive and negative. There are side effects for every drug including aspirin.
I wish my parents would have taken me to a psychiatrist especially when I was in High School. It would have saved me decades of misery in depression. My medication, talk therapy, vitamin supplements, good diet, excercise, and spiritual practices have literally saved my life.
Medication alone usually does not solve everything. If there is something biological, like with me I have depression on both sides of the family, then medication may be an important piece of treatment for your child.
The children I work with receive therapy, counseling, behavior modification, occupational therapy, speech therapy, and sometimes medication. Usually in the school where I work everything else is tried first before getting a psychiatrist involved.
Also please look for a psychiatrist that specializes in treating children. Children react differently than adults to medication and they need more monitoring than most adults. Their bodies are changing so fast. They may even outgrow their need for medication. Sometimes I have heard from the psychiatrist that during puberty medications need to be changed or adjusted because of the chemical changes going on in the child's body.
There is no easy "fix" for any of these issues. Please, do yourself and your child a favor and look at the reasonable options and discount the alarmists. Any extreme like, "This med will make it all better," or, "Meds are evil and should never be used in children" is bad advice in my observations.
I'm not sure what qualifications Larry Hoover has. He may be a doctor, I don't know. Please know that I am NOT a doctor. I am a counselor who specializes in behavior modification. I see the changes in the children when they go on and off of medications. We, as a team try to help them either way.
I hope that you find something that works for your son. I can tell that you love him very much and that you want what is best for him. You are the one who has to make the choice, since he's still under 18.
Please read all of the posts on this topic and look up real studies. Interview doctors, psychiatrists, therapists, and counselors so that you can have all the best information available to you when making your decisions on how to help your son.
Fear is a natural reaction to any problem your child might be having. Since I do not have children of my own I can only imagine what your dilemma is like. I do not claim to have all the answers for you and I do not claim to know exactly what you are going through.
All I can do is offer my experience in working with this population. It's only my experience and there is much more out there than my experience.
Blessings,
Simcha
> A few months back I posted regarding my 16 yr old son and his ADD problems. At that time he was tried on Wellbutrin and went psychotic on it. He swore he would not touch another drug again for his disorder. That changed, now he's seeing a psychiatrist next week about starting Concerta, which has just been approved in Canada. I'm worried, one of the side-effects is psychosis. Any experiences with this drug would be so appreciated. Thanks
> Ess
Posted by zeugma on August 17, 2003, at 16:19:23
In reply to Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 8:05:58
> A few months back I posted regarding my 16 yr old son and his ADD problems. At that time he was tried on Wellbutrin and went psychotic on it. He swore he would not touch another drug again for his disorder. That changed, now he's seeing a psychiatrist next week about starting Concerta, which has just been approved in Canada. I'm worried, one of the side-effects is psychosis. Any experiences with this drug would be so appreciated. Thanks
Concerta and other stimulants can cause psychosis as a result of sleep deprivation and dopaminergic overactivity. This is usually a result of long-term abuse in doses far higher than prescribed medically.Wellbutrin is actually a more unpredictable drug than Concerta or other stimulants. Many here have had idiosyncratic responses, including perceptual difficulties, extreme irritabilty, and other adverse reactions. Any drug, meant to alleviate any condition, can cause adverse reactions. And many drugs are abusable. But ADHD, untreated, is a condition serious enough to justify the trial of a medication.
Posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 16:28:38
In reply to Re: Concerta, A Worried Mom! » Essence, posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 16:15:32
Sorry the name here:
I'm not sure what qualifications Larry Hoover has. He may be a doctor, I don't know. Please know that I am NOT a doctor. I am a counselor who specializes in behavior modification. I see the changes in the children when they go on and off of medications. We, as a team try to help them either way.
Should be Lou Pilder... Sorry Larry ;-)
Posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 16:30:18
In reply to Re: Concerta, A Worried Mom! » Lou Pilder, posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 15:53:53
The following is for Lou, again, sorry Larry...
> Larry,
>
> I have experience having taught school age children for years in religious ed.
>
> Also there is the training I receive from my agency. I'm also a grad student working toward an MA in Counseling Psychology.
>
> I've been working in my current setting for over a year now and I've observed many children who have received treatment with adderal, ritalin, and cylert. I notice that usually children are able to focus better while on their medication. Like I said, I'm not a doctor, nor am I studying to be a doctor. I think I stressed that in my post. I can only comment on the behavior of the children I work with. I work in the milieu and I do behavior modification.
>
> I am definitely qualified according to the laws of the State of California.
>
> Not sure what you are looking for in all of that.
>
> Blessings,
> Simcha
>
>
> > Simcha,
> > You wrote,[...I am a Mental Health counselor who works with some ADD children...].
> > Could you tell us what type of certification, if any, that you may hold to qualify for the position that you describe as a "Mental Health counselor"? Also,could you tell the setting that you are in that you are working with some ADD children?
> > If you could, then I could have a better understanding of the situation that you are describing hear and be better able to respond to your post and the initiator of this thread accordingly.
> > Lou
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:32:44
In reply to Re: Concerta, A Worried Mom! » Lou Pilder, posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 15:53:53
Simcha,
You wrote in response to my question to clarify what you meant by being [...a Mental Health counselor...] that you.
A.[...taught school age children for years in religious ed...]
B.[...I receicve training from my agency...]
C.[...I am a grad student working toward an MA in Counseling Psychology...]
D.[ ...I am working in my current setting for over a year...]
E.[...I have observed children that have received treatment with adderall, ritalin....]
F.[...I notice that the children on these drugs usually focus better...]
G. [...I work in the milieu...I do behavior modification...].
After reading your post. are you saying that you taught some sort of religious class to school age children and that some of those were on these drugs?
Are you saying that the agency that gives you training is a religious agency?
Coukld you identify what your current setting is that you are working in? If you could, then I could better understand your post that I am responding to.
Could you identify what the milieue is that you do behavior modification ? If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your post to me.
Do you have an undergraduste degree or are you working directly toward a masters without a BS? If you do have an undergraduate degree, does it give you state certification and if so, in what?
When you obseved children on the drugs, could you clarify how you made the conclusion that they focused better?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:48:00
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to jlo820,, posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 15:36:12
jlo820,
You wrote,[...infomation from Peter Breggin MD my not exactlly be objective...].
Could you clarify what it is that prompted you to write that to me? Are you saying that a respected medical doctor that has done extensive reserch and has written many books on the subject has others equivalent to his credentials that refute his work? If so, could you refer me to this work that refutes Dr. Breggins work on this subject?
Lou
Posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 17:03:18
In reply to Lou's response to simcha's post about credentials » Simcha, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:32:44
Lou,
I have given you all the answers needed for you to figure this out.
Now some questions for you:
1. Are you a doctor?
2. Are you a counselor?
3. Are you a therapist?
4. Are you a psychologist?
5. Are you a psychiatrist?
6. Are you an intern in any of these professions?
7. Are you a trainee in any of these professions?
8. Have you ever worked with children with learning disabilities, developmental delays, or mental illness?
9. Are you in an accredited university earning a degree that would qualify you to make the sweeping claims that you make?I will not divulge the exact school or the location or the exact qualifications I have in an anonymous room on the Internet. I am more security conscious than that.
Also, yes, some of the children in religious ed, in the school I taught in ten years ago, did take Ritalin.
Also, I've worked as a volunteer in non-profit state sponsored agencies (non-religious) working with adolescents who had severe emotional difficulties. I received training in order to qualify even as a volunteer before beginning to work with the youth.
No, I do not work for a religious organization of any kind. I work for one of the premier Youth Centers in California. They have given me credentials based on my experience and specific accredited training that they offer. And they have done an extensive background check so that I can work with children which included running my fingerprints through law enforcement agencies. I work in in-school day treatment. Also, I do have a BS, no school would accept me as a grad student if I did not have one.
The qualifications I have allow me to make observations and do behavioral interventions for children in schools in California and in our on-campus residential setting. That is all you need to know.
When the children are on their medication they can actually concentrate enough to do their school work. Some of them are really brilliant. The medication allows them to focus. Without the medication they cannot do their work. It's as simple as that, Lou.
Perhaps if you answer my questions above on your qualifications, then we can all understand where you are coming from and then we can all respond to your posts accordingly.
Sincerely,
Simcha
> Simcha,
> You wrote in response to my question to clarify what you meant by being [...a Mental Health counselor...] that you.
> A.[...taught school age children for years in religious ed...]
> B.[...I receicve training from my agency...]
> C.[...I am a grad student working toward an MA in Counseling Psychology...]
> D.[ ...I am working in my current setting for over a year...]
> E.[...I have observed children that have received treatment with adderall, ritalin....]
> F.[...I notice that the children on these drugs usually focus better...]
> G. [...I work in the milieu...I do behavior modification...].
> After reading your post. are you saying that you taught some sort of religious class to school age children and that some of those were on these drugs?
> Are you saying that the agency that gives you training is a religious agency?
> Coukld you identify what your current setting is that you are working in? If you could, then I could better understand your post that I am responding to.
> Could you identify what the milieue is that you do behavior modification ? If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your post to me.
> Do you have an undergraduste degree or are you working directly toward a masters without a BS? If you do have an undergraduate degree, does it give you state certification and if so, in what?
> When you obseved children on the drugs, could you clarify how you made the conclusion that they focused better?
> Lou
>
Posted by Aeryn on August 17, 2003, at 17:12:29
In reply to Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 8:05:58
Everyone is different and your son is just one of the people who have had a bad reaction to Welbutrin. Concerta/Ritalin is actually pretty safe, it has a short half life so is out of his system fairly quickly.
If the Concerta makes him seem pleasant and focused, all is well. If he doesn't respond to stimulants, he may not have ADD!
This is not medical advice just what I have seen personally and learned from people I know with their own experience.
Comparatively, Concerta is much safer than Welbutrin. Docs just like to try the non-scheduled drugs first, even though they can be harder on the body.
Good luck.
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 17:16:01
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to jlo820,-PB, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:48:00
I would be very happy to clarify!
Peter Breggin has very strong, subjective feelings on the subject of medications and I do not believe he is an objecive researcher or author.
I do not respect Peter Breggin's work. Just because someone has written a book, does not mean they are right. I think the title of his book is evidence enough that he is not objective.
I am not going to do your research for you, but with a little effort I am sure you can find more than enough objective research that refutes Dr. Breggin's claims.
Thanks for checking and have a GREAT day.
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 17:19:04
In reply to Lou's reply to jlo820, RD » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 16:02:10
>> In the report given in the site where **the** child died
RE: RitalinDEATH.com
I didn't even bother to look at the site, it is obviously not objective, but are YOU TELLING ME that this whole site is based on one child?!? I hope this is not the case.
Take care, Lou!
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 17:32:42
In reply to Re: Lou's response to simcha's post about credentials, posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 17:03:18
Simcha,
You wrote,[...I will not give the exact qualifications I have...I am security concious...].
I understand, for I also have done volunteer work for govt agencys and know what you are talking about. But thanks for telling me that your work is with troubled children, for I also taught the children in my school district that were expelled in what they called an alternitive school. I have a masters in curriculum and administration from Miami University, oxford, Ohio and much graduate work beyond that. I taught for 27 years, almost all with troubled youth, the learning disabled, the outcasts of society, the children that didn't fit in, the children of disadvantaged homes, the children of no home, the children of homes that were worse than no home at all, the children that were rejecte by their own parents, the children with physical and mental illnesses, the children that no one wanted. But I saw their situation not as a result of any chemical need for amphetimine - like drugs, but as a result of other factors which time and space can not justly provide here.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 17:42:35
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to jlo820,-PB, posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 17:16:01
jlo820,
You wrote,[...thanks for checking and have a Great day...].
That is super,jlo. Perhaps you could have a great day also.
Lou
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 17, 2003, at 17:57:36
In reply to Concerta, A Worried Mom!, posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 8:05:58
I just thought it important that I add my own personal experience to this rapidly growing thread. :-)
Your son may or may not benefit from a stimulant medication, but I personally wouldn't start him off on Concerta. The active in ingredient in Concerta, Metadate, Methylin, and Ritalin are all the same -- methylphenidate. Methylphenidate is notorious for causing anxiety and irritability, so I would hazard to guess that it may not be your best first option if he has had serious drug reactions in the past.
Have you looked into any of the amphetamines? Adderall, Dexedrine, or Desoxyn? They are all "gentler" on the body, especially Dexedrine and Desoxyn (Adderall has more adverse effects on the cardiovascular system -- like Ritalin and ephedra, but to a lesser degree). All of these come in extended-release forms (i.e. Adderall XR, Dexedrine Spansules, Desoxyn CR), and are every bit as effective (statistically speaking) as Ritalin. I'd highly urge you to look into these medications (Dexedrine and Desoxyn, especially) before you decide to try him on the more harsh methylphenidate.
Just as a final note, all of the above is based both on personal experience and research, and I've tried my best not to be biased. I just feel that, given the cardiovascular effects of methylphenidate and Adderall, Dexedrine or Desoxyn may be better first-line meds. Good luck!
Posted by jlo820 on August 17, 2003, at 18:03:50
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to jlo820 GD, posted by Lou Pilder on August 17, 2003, at 17:42:35
Ummmmm...OK.
We would like to hear your replies on Peter Breggin and ritalinDEATH.com
Posted by Essence on August 17, 2003, at 18:45:19
In reply to Re: Concerta, A Worried Mom! » Essence, posted by Simcha on August 17, 2003, at 16:15:32
Simcha: Thank you very much for your responses. Your support,without knowing the whole story was heartfelt. To Everyone else, so many to name, thank you for your input as well, including Lou's. Lou, I have read all those sites and many books, this decision has not come lightly as you will read on.
My son's ADD is not a "NEW" diagnoses so this is not something new to me, medicating him however is. He was 'diagnosed' at age 2 as probable ADHD, but I was told through mental health that they could not put a disorder on a child under the age of 5. Despite that, my son and I went bi-weekly to mental health so I could learn how to raise my son without meds using counseling and behaviour modifications. We continued this until he was age 9. He was doing well in school, was a happy young boy and the hyperactivity aspect of his disorder was minimal at the age of 9 compared to where it had been. I somehow felt that perhaps he had outgrown his disorder, I had read that this could happen,his therapist agreed so counseling was discontinued. What I didn't know, was that ADD/ADHD could change to different types. Once he entered Junior High, his life fell apart. His grades fell dramatically, with each failure he felt worse and worse about himself. He began many distructive behaviours, running away from home, smoking, drinking, being verbally abusive, etc. The list is too long to post here. I tried several times in the past 5 yrs to get him to go back into counselling, he wouldn't participate so was told not to come back. Back in the winter, after being told he was failing his 5th yr in junior high school, I demanded that he go back and be tested for a learning disability. To my shock, it came back as ADD - innatentive. I was floored, I had really felt he no longer had this disorder. I always hated medications, and vowed when he was younger to never put him on one. Now I see the damage that decision has created. After his testing back in the winter, he agreed to try Wellbutrin. Well that failed and he dropped out of school after turning 16 in April and became a father in May. This decision to go back to a psychiatrist was his decision, he now wants an education and realizes that he can't do it alone. I am heartsick that such a young man has such a heavy burden to bear. But I am even more heartsick to think of what might happen to him if medical intervention isn't taken.
I asked about Concerta because it's once a day dosing and appears to not have the peaks and valleys of Ritalin, etc, so I wanted to hear people's experience with it and mostly, the psychotic side-effect. Adderall and Straterra are not available here yet and Concerta was just approved. Sorry for the long post, but thanks again everyone.
Ess
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