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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kari on May 23, 2003, at 15:20:25
There have been reports about medications which reduce stomach acid improving psychiatric conditions. Does anyone know anything about this and why it would work?
Thanks,
Kari.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 16:18:42
In reply to famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Kari on May 23, 2003, at 15:20:25
> There have been reports about medications which reduce stomach acid improving psychiatric conditions. Does anyone know anything about this and why it would work?
> Thanks,
> Kari.Uhhh, reports where, exactly?
I've seen case reports of cimetidine, ranitidine, and famotidine causing mania and delusions, but I doubt that's what you're alluding to.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on May 23, 2003, at 17:17:36
In reply to famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Kari on May 23, 2003, at 15:20:25
I found that Zantac 75 acid reducer improved my
condition. When I am nervous my stomach just pours out the stomach acid, and this reminds my brain that I am really frightened, not to mention the discomfort.When I take a acid reducer, I think about the anxiety less, when I am in a stressful situation.
Linkadge
Posted by Kari on May 24, 2003, at 12:18:42
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 16:18:42
Hi Larry,
This is one link I found through Google:
http://pub26.ezboard.com/fstgermainefrm11.showMessage?topicID=30.topic
Kari.
Posted by Kari on May 24, 2003, at 12:21:39
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by linkadge on May 23, 2003, at 17:17:36
Hi Linkadge,
Thanks for your response. Glad to hear Zantac has helped you.
Kari.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 12:59:30
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc. » Larry Hoover, posted by Kari on May 24, 2003, at 12:18:42
> Hi Larry,
>
> This is one link I found through Google:
>
> http://pub26.ezboard.com/fstgermainefrm11.showMessage?topicID=30.topic
>
> Kari.Ok, that's intriguing. However, what got me confused was the mention of omeprazole. It works quite differently than famotidine. And, I find it interesting that other H2 antagonists used for stomach acid control do not have similar central histaminic effects (at least, no reports of such that I can find).
I'm curious....if it's not to personal.... What sort of symptoms are you looking at? What's your interest?
Lar
Posted by Kari on May 24, 2003, at 14:42:06
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc. » Kari, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 12:59:30
Larry,
Thanks for your response.
As you have mentioned, the improvement I heard about was attributed to famotidine. I assumed by mistake that the effect was simply due to the reduction of stomach acid (I have almost no knowledge regarding the mechanism of action of different meds :)
In response to your question, I am interested in schizo-spectrum symptoms, autistic tendencies, bipolar and OCD.Best wishes,
Kari.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 15:28:25
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Kari on May 24, 2003, at 14:42:06
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for your response.
> As you have mentioned, the improvement I heard about was attributed to famotidine. I assumed by mistake that the effect was simply due to the reduction of stomach acid (I have almost no knowledge regarding the mechanism of action of different meds :)Sometimes I wish my brain didn't work the way it does. I can't help but notice inconsistencies (which makes me an excellent scientist, IMHO).
We're only starting to understand histamine as a neurotransmitter. It's not just a signalling chemical in allergies. Remeron (mirtazapine) has significant histaminic effects, for example.
> In response to your question, I am interested in schizo-spectrum symptoms, autistic tendencies, bipolar and OCD.
>
> Best wishes,
> Kari.Well, Kari, I think that fatty acid metabolism is closely linked to histamine regulation. Fish oil would seem to be a reasonable dietary addition in all these conditions. There's one theory that the primary defect in schizophrenia is in membrane fatty acid turnover, and that the dopamine problems (and antipsychotic meds)arise from that.
Let me know how it goes, if you decide to try famotidine.
Lar
Posted by CamW. on May 24, 2003, at 15:43:02
In reply to famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Kari on May 23, 2003, at 15:20:25
I researched the use of famotidine (Pepcid™) in pschosis and schizophrenia a few years ago after I stumbled across an article in an older (mid-70's?) European psychiatry textbook that mentioned it in passing. High doses of famotidine supposedly relieved psychosis and helped to prevent recurrances in at least one case of schizophrenia. What I found was one paper (non-controlled) that tried using it in a few treatment-resistant cases.
I have the article, but my all my psychopharmacological files are boxed and stored). I believe that I found the article cited in a British Journal of Psychiatry. Forgive me, my memory ain't what it used to be.
In any case, the results in the article were not very convincing. Other mentions of using famotidine as an antipsychotic were in letters to the editor in a couple of journals.
Being unable to think of a rational mechanism of action, I discussed the paper with one of our more "open" researchers and he did try it for a short time in one patient without seeing any changes. It was one of those situations in which the patient's condition was even resistant to high dose clozapine (Clozaril™) and several multi-drug combinations, not a typical case.
I suspect that the remission of the psychosis in the initial instance was coinsidental (ie. natural remission).
FWIW - Cam
Posted by CamW. on May 24, 2003, at 15:59:56
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 15:28:25
If you look closely at the structure of the older phenothiazines, the are all based on an antihistamine structure, even though a few of them didn't seem to bind to either of the major histamine receptors. Hmmm....
- Cam
Posted by Jaynee on May 24, 2003, at 17:06:30
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc. » Larry Hoover, posted by CamW. on May 24, 2003, at 15:59:56
I like the anti-histamine theory. I have been taking Claritin for about a month now and it was working like a charm. Mostly it was helping my stomach problems (excessive, constant, painful burping and motility problems with my stomach). It was also giving me alot of energy. Lately though it has not been working. A pharmacist I have talked to said some people become immuned to Claritin and it stops working for them. I am obviously one of them. Of all the drugs I've taken, Claritin has helped most. The only other one that helps my stomach is Ativan, but it does nothing for motivation. I have tried the PPI's, motilium, Zantac, etc, etc, and I am still on Celexa. But so far the Claritin worked the best, it is just that it has stopped working on my stomach that is. Although I am still taking it, because I still get that boost of extra energy from it, it is just hard to stay positive when you are in constant pain.
Posted by Kari on May 25, 2003, at 13:05:42
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 15:28:25
Thanks for the suggestion, Larry.
There is one problem with fish oil, though. I keep hearing that taking it can cause hemorrhage of blood vessels in the brain. That really scares me :)Kari.
Posted by Kari on May 25, 2003, at 13:07:37
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc. » Kari, posted by CamW. on May 24, 2003, at 15:43:02
Thanks for your post, Cam.
Posted by Kari on May 25, 2003, at 13:10:39
In reply to Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Jaynee on May 24, 2003, at 17:06:30
Hi Jaynee,
Sorry to hear you are in pain and that the Claritin isn't helping you anymore. I hope you find something which will be of help.
Kari.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2003, at 16:39:03
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc. » Larry Hoover, posted by Kari on May 25, 2003, at 13:05:42
> Thanks for the suggestion, Larry.
> There is one problem with fish oil, though. I keep hearing that taking it can cause hemorrhage of blood vessels in the brain. That really scares me :)
>
> Kari.That is poppycock.
That idea arises from a gross misinterpretation of data from the study of one population of Inuit, from Greenland. The traditional diet is thought to provide something like 20 or 30 grams/day of long-chain omega-3s. And, the incidence of hemorrhagic stroke in that population was higher than in matched populations elsewhere (occlusive strokes, the kind most people in the Western world get, are virtually unheard of). Turns out that the culprit is not fish oil, but inbreeding. There is a genetic defect unique to that population that causes arterial ruptures. Two copies of the bad gene and you get early death, often from hemorrhagic stroke.
You're ten times more likely to have an occlusive stroke than an hemorrhagic one to begin with, but fish oil cuts the risk of the occlusive sort by up to half. The risk to benefit ratio is heavily weighted towards benefits from fish oil. Of all the supplements I use, it is my belief that fish oil is the healthiest one for me (and for you, too).
Lar
Posted by Kari on May 26, 2003, at 14:55:14
In reply to Re: famotidine, omeprazole etc., posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2003, at 16:39:03
Thanks for the info, Larry.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:22:47
In reply to Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Jaynee on May 24, 2003, at 17:06:30
> I like the anti-histamine theory. I have been taking Claritin for about a month now and it was working like a charm. Mostly it was helping my stomach problems (excessive, constant, painful burping and motility problems with my stomach). It was also giving me alot of energy. Lately though it has not been working. A pharmacist I have talked to said some people become immuned to Claritin and it stops working for them. I am obviously one of them. Of all the drugs I've taken, Claritin has helped most. The only other one that helps my stomach is Ativan, but it does nothing for motivation. I have tried the PPI's, motilium, Zantac, etc, etc, and I am still on Celexa. But so far the Claritin worked the best, it is just that it has stopped working on my stomach that is. Although I am still taking it, because I still get that boost of extra energy from it, it is just hard to stay positive when you are in constant pain.
I find stories like yours to be very intriguing, though perhaps frustrating, as you don't seem to fit nicely into the theories and mechanisms (at least as I understand them), so I don't know what to suggest to you.
You see, the type of histamine receptor Claritin is supposed to act on is a different sort than the kind that is supposed to regulate stomach acidity. I've looked high and low, and I can't find any link between them (i.e. loratadine and stomach histamine receptors).
You say you are in constant pain. What sort? What triggers it?
And about PPIs...you say you tried without success. They work by a non-histaminic mechanism, and generally (as far as I know) slash acid output quite severely. They can be combined with H2 blockers (e.g. Pepcid), attacking acid by two means.
Humour me on this, but it may help.... Get a heaping teaspoon of turmeric, stir it into a glass of water, and chug 'er down. If that helps, that's a good clue. Also, you may find that bromelain helps.
If you've got classic GERD, I was able to completely bring mine under control, without medication. I used to *need* meds (I took part in the clinical trials for Nexxium). Now, I don't. I've got a nine month supply of omeprazole, just sitting there.
What worked on the GERD was betaine, bromelain, magnesium, and B-12. I can't remember if there were other things I was already using that were part of the pattern (I hope I remember all the details). I'm going to have to take another look at this, I guess.....details matter.
Lar
Posted by Jaynee on May 26, 2003, at 17:19:37
In reply to Re: Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:22:47
Thanks Larry, for the suggestions. I will try the turmeric. Nothing triggers the stomach problems, it seems to just happen. It is mostly bad during the evening. My sister has the same problem, but she has heart-burn, which I don't, plus she gets relief from Losec. The pain is basically from the pressure of the gas building up in my stomach, it builds up so bad that it feels like someone is pushing on my ribs from inside. Then it can build up to the point that it feels like someone is choking me. Once I let a really good burp or more like a few good ones, the pressure goes away until it builds up again. Good thing I am already married, because it would be hard to get dates with this. We always thought my sister had this problem because she was fat, but I am thin and I too, now have this problem.
I have been tested for H-pylori and don't have it. My doc thought the claritin was working because of the histamine receptors, etc, but I have tried zantac, etc and it did nothing. The gasto I saw thought it was more like a motility problem, maybe gastroparesis or functional dyspesia. They've done the battery of tests, scope, barium, etc, so Who the hell knows.
I will try the betaine, bromelain. I have already tried Magnesium and B-12 with no luck. I am trying the Acidophilus Ultra again and see if it helps. I quit taking it when I got the weird rash. But I am trying it again. If that doesn't work I will try Peppermint Oil again.
Other than that, the only thing my sister and I have in common is Depression and Anxiety. Maybe I will keep trying different AD's. Personally I am thinking it is an anxiety thing, or maybe food allergy.
thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 18:04:19
In reply to Re: Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Jaynee on May 26, 2003, at 17:19:37
There's something about your symptoms make me think of irritable bowel....used to be called spastic colon.
> I will try the betaine, bromelain. I have already tried Magnesium and B-12 with no luck.
I meant for them to be used together. And, one of the other factors is vitamin C. Do your gums bleed when you brush? Even if they don't, add two grams per day vitamin C. Another influence may be fish oil (that's a long story).
>I am trying the Acidophilus Ultra again and see if it helps. I quit taking it when I got the weird rash. But I am trying it again. If that doesn't work I will try Peppermint Oil again.
Peppermint oil works? One of its actions is calcium-channel blockade....which relieves smasms in smooth-muscle tissue, the kind that cramps up in irritable bowel syndrome.
I noticed you called omeprazole Losec....that's the Canadian name (Prilosec in the states). There's a Canadian-only calcium-channel blocker that works wonders for irritable bowel (spastic form). It's called Dicetel (pinaverium bromide). I get mine in sample form from the doctor. I used to *need* it. Now, once in a blue moon. My whole digestive tract is much better, now, not just the tummy and GERD part. You oughta see if you can get some.
> Other than that, the only thing my sister and I have in common is Depression and Anxiety. Maybe I will keep trying different AD's. Personally I am thinking it is an anxiety thing, or maybe food allergy.
>
> thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it.You're welcome. And, by the way, I wouldn't be too sure that your different symptoms aren't associated, in that there may well be one root cause for them all. I find that many of my symptoms, from supposedly very different disorders, wax and wane together. There's more serotonin in your gut (total mass) than in all your brain.
Lar
Posted by samplemethod on May 27, 2003, at 6:26:31
In reply to Re: Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:22:47
Umm Lar, what is GERD?
> > I like the anti-histamine theory. I have been taking Claritin for about a month now and it was working like a charm. Mostly it was helping my stomach problems (excessive, constant, painful burping and motility problems with my stomach). It was also giving me alot of energy. Lately though it has not been working. A pharmacist I have talked to said some people become immuned to Claritin and it stops working for them. I am obviously one of them. Of all the drugs I've taken, Claritin has helped most. The only other one that helps my stomach is Ativan, but it does nothing for motivation. I have tried the PPI's, motilium, Zantac, etc, etc, and I am still on Celexa. But so far the Claritin worked the best, it is just that it has stopped working on my stomach that is. Although I am still taking it, because I still get that boost of extra energy from it, it is just hard to stay positive when you are in constant pain.
>
> I find stories like yours to be very intriguing, though perhaps frustrating, as you don't seem to fit nicely into the theories and mechanisms (at least as I understand them), so I don't know what to suggest to you.
>
> You see, the type of histamine receptor Claritin is supposed to act on is a different sort than the kind that is supposed to regulate stomach acidity. I've looked high and low, and I can't find any link between them (i.e. loratadine and stomach histamine receptors).
>
> You say you are in constant pain. What sort? What triggers it?
>
> And about PPIs...you say you tried without success. They work by a non-histaminic mechanism, and generally (as far as I know) slash acid output quite severely. They can be combined with H2 blockers (e.g. Pepcid), attacking acid by two means.
>
> Humour me on this, but it may help.... Get a heaping teaspoon of turmeric, stir it into a glass of water, and chug 'er down. If that helps, that's a good clue. Also, you may find that bromelain helps.
>
> If you've got classic GERD, I was able to completely bring mine under control, without medication. I used to *need* meds (I took part in the clinical trials for Nexxium). Now, I don't. I've got a nine month supply of omeprazole, just sitting there.
>
> What worked on the GERD was betaine, bromelain, magnesium, and B-12. I can't remember if there were other things I was already using that were part of the pattern (I hope I remember all the details). I'm going to have to take another look at this, I guess.....details matter.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 6:48:18
In reply to Re: Claritin was working What is GERD??? » Larry Hoover, posted by samplemethod on May 27, 2003, at 6:26:31
> Umm Lar, what is GERD?
Gastro-Esophageal Reflux Disorder. Chronic heartburn.
Posted by Alan Deakins on December 15, 2004, at 13:58:37
In reply to Re: Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:22:47
I believe I suffer from mild gastro stasis or gastroparesis. Is there a relationship between Claritin and gastroparesis? In that, it can help with the symptoms?
Posted by Jaynee on December 15, 2004, at 16:00:48
In reply to Re: Claritin was working like a charm for me........., posted by Alan Deakins on December 15, 2004, at 13:58:37
Just curious to what your symptoms are. I have stomach motility problems, not sure is it is full blown gastroparesis, but something is not working right.
You could try Claritin, it works for awhile with me, but then quits. Less stress seems to work bests for me, but that isn't always something anyone of us can control.
What meds have you tried so far?
Posted by alan39 on December 16, 2004, at 9:31:50
In reply to What are your symptoms?, posted by Jaynee on December 15, 2004, at 16:00:48
I have tried antacids/prevacid/gasx/natural stool softeners.....What is it about claritin that works with gastroparesis?
This is the end of the thread.
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