![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnj on March 20, 2003, at 16:07:52
Hi Larry,
I wanted to ask you a few questions and bounce a few things that are on my mind. Everybody out there please feel free to jump in too.
First, I asked you about mangesium before and I can't remember if I would have to up my calcuim intake if I take a supplement?? Sorry my memory is not so good as of late. You mentioned I should take one spoonful of cod liver oil. for some A and D too. I have been reading some posts and I wondered what your take is on people having some adverse affects to fish oil. I did have some sleep fragmentation so I know megadoses per day are most likely not for me.
Also, I have recently diagnosed with Peyronie's disease(google it and it will come up, it is quite embarrasing for me). I was told to try and take up to 1000 mg of vitamin E. Could Vitamin E affect my lithium, TCA, or benzo levels?
I have upped my B-complex like we discussed awhile back and I feel better. I still have the problem with excercise and this week I sat all day and worked and felt better when I was more sedentary(it should actually be the opposite!) I was thinking about supplemnts, etc., and wondered if you have ever thought why people such as myself would benefit from supplments? I think about evolution and times were a lot tougher way back when so why should I need more when in the past our ancestors made due with a lot less. Or did they? I wonder what you think about the Atkins diet, etc. I myself am going to give up some grains and see what happens.
My pdoc gave me the ok to try 5-htp and I was suprised since they caution about seretonin syndrome. But, I think I will give it a try anyway at a low dose.
I am going to try things one at a time, taurine, 5thp, mangesium, and the vitamin E w/(cod liver oil)
I have had a serious lack of motivation for some time now and this is very uncharacteristic for me. I wondered if taken AD's like I have for 10 years somehow deplete something else. I have heard about dopamine depletion, but that is just a theory right now. Is there any way to increase dopamine production through supplements, foods, or meds?
Also one last question. I take nortryptline a TCA and I tried to lower my dose from 50 to 40 a few months back. After 3 days I felt pretty horrible. I have been on it for 10 years. They say TCA's work on downregulation so I wonder if my body cannot get back to normal when taking an antidepressant? Do I somehow become dependent on it and my body adjusts to it? Or do I have to suffer for a month or two before my body might take back over what it is supposed to do? I am just throwing some questions out to see what you think since I appreciate your knowledge. I am sure there are no correct answers but hypothesis are out there. Thanks Larry.
johnj
Posted by falconman on March 20, 2003, at 19:52:04
In reply to Questions for Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 20, 2003, at 16:07:52
Hi
to increase dopamine levels you could try a few supplements maybe. L-Tyrosine, DL Phenyalanine, NADH...?Falcon
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2003, at 13:10:21
In reply to Questions for Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 20, 2003, at 16:07:52
> Hi Larry,
>
> I wanted to ask you a few questions and bounce a few things that are on my mind. Everybody out there please feel free to jump in too.John, I appreciate your persistence. I'm on the road a lot, so you just have to keep trying sometimes.
>
> First, I asked you about mangesium before and I can't remember if I would have to up my calcuim intake if I take a supplement??No. Just adjust your magnesium dose so as to not cause diarrhea. Your body will look after the rest. If diarrhea occurs, you will lose magnesium. Just back down on the dose a bit.
> Sorry my memory is not so good as of late. You mentioned I should take one spoonful of cod liver oil. for some A and D too. I have been reading some posts and I wondered what your take is on people having some adverse affects to fish oil. I did have some sleep fragmentation so I know megadoses per day are most likely not for me.
I suspect there's an adjustment period. Perhaps sudden increases, or major increases, in fish oil intake will cause adverse effects. Cod liver oil is good, but don't overdo it.
> Also, I have recently diagnosed with Peyronie's disease(google it and it will come up, it is quite embarrasing for me).
I know what Peyronie's is. That sucks.
>I was told to try and take up to 1000 mg of vitamin E. Could Vitamin E affect my lithium, TCA, or benzo levels?
No. I can't imagine a possible interaction. Probably a good idea to take alpha-lipoic acid too. It's capable of regenerating other antioxidants, as well as being an excellent antioxidant itself.
> I have upped my B-complex like we discussed awhile back and I feel better. I still have the problem with excercise and this week I sat all day and worked and felt better when I was more sedentary(it should actually be the opposite!)Have you considered the idea that you have chronic fatigue syndrome? Exertion will lead to rebound fatigue *if you exceed your capacity*. What I mean is, exercise is good for everyone, even those with chronic fatigue syndrome, but exercise tolerance must be increased gradually in CFS sufferers. Pushing too hard causes rebound fatigue, which unfortunately only shows itself after the fact. You learn to pay exquisite attention to your capacity, and you can gradually increase your activity without rebound fatigue.
> I was thinking about supplemnts, etc., and wondered if you have ever thought why people such as myself would benefit from supplments? I think about evolution and times were a lot tougher way back when so why should I need more when in the past our ancestors made due with a lot less. Or did they?
Our modern experience is unprecedented, with respect to the stressors we face routinely. I don't know that a comparison with our ancestors is very informative. Because of the way our genes interact, every generation includes members with an astonishing array of capacities and frailties. Only interaction with the current environment will reveal whether or not a particular gene combination is an asset or a burden.
One of the factors facing us today that has probably never faced mankind before is the vast array of viruses and bacteria which all populations are being exposed to. The global movement of people and materials leads to an enhanced opportunity for multiple infections. I wonder just how the effects of all these viral infections underlie some of our symptoms.
>I wonder what you think about the Atkins diet, etc. I myself am going to give up some grains and see what happens.
I do poorly if I eat grains to excess. Carbs, for me, are not invigorating. I do best on a high protein and vegetable/fruit diet. You just have to try different things.
> My pdoc gave me the ok to try 5-htp and I was suprised since they caution about seretonin syndrome. But, I think I will give it a try anyway at a low dose.If you test different doses by gradual increases, you're not likely to run into problems.
> I am going to try things one at a time, taurine, 5thp, mangesium, and the vitamin E w/(cod liver oil)You might want to try trimethylglycine (also known as betaine freebase, or anhydrous betaine). Source Naturals sells it. I get mine at hilife vitamins and herbs.
> I have had a serious lack of motivation for some time now and this is very uncharacteristic for me. I wondered if taken AD's like I have for 10 years somehow deplete something else.Certainly a possibility. That's why I advocate so strongly for nutritional supplements. I know I do better with them than without.
>I have heard about dopamine depletion, but that is just a theory right now. Is there any way to increase dopamine production through supplements, foods, or meds?
Directly, via supplementation with tyrosine or phenylalanine. Indirectly with NADH.
> Also one last question. I take nortryptline a TCA and I tried to lower my dose from 50 to 40 a few months back. After 3 days I felt pretty horrible. I have been on it for 10 years. They say TCA's work on downregulation so I wonder if my body cannot get back to normal when taking an antidepressant?Your body will adapt to the change, but the change may feel uncomfortable. It will pass.
>Do I somehow become dependent on it and my body adjusts to it? Or do I have to suffer for a month or two before my body might take back over what it is supposed to do?
Probably not that long, but that's the general idea.
>I am just throwing some questions out to see what you think since I appreciate your knowledge. I am sure there are no correct answers but hypothesis are out there. Thanks Larry.
>
> johnjGlad to oblige.
Take care,
Lar
Posted by johnj on March 22, 2003, at 15:24:08
In reply to Re: Questions for Larry Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2003, at 13:10:21
Wow, thanks Larry! I know you said you are on the road so I just repost if necessary
trimethylglycine....I will do a little research on it and see what I come up with.
I took some magnesium last night for the first time after I went to a Tai chi class. I slept well and felt pretty good. I was suprised since I expected the excercise, even though, it was light to affect me adversely and it didn't. Since I take lithium maybe I just needed some magnesium.
Thank you for your patience with all my questions. They are very much appreciated. People here are often more help than my pdoc! Take care..
Cheers
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2003, at 17:28:07
In reply to Re: Questions for Larry Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on March 22, 2003, at 13:10:21
Posted by johnj on March 22, 2003, at 22:29:14
In reply to Re: You're a good man, Hoover. (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2003, at 17:28:07
and you and Colin are included in that group. I planted 50 white pine trees today on some land I would like to build a house. However, the anxiety of building a house has been overwhelming and I can't get the ball rolling (what to do, what to do):) The interest haven't been this good in a long time.
It felt good to be in the sun and returning something to the earth that will outlive me, if the damn deer don't eat them first!
Hope things are well.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2003, at 9:52:04
In reply to Re: You're a good man, Hoover. (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2003, at 17:28:07
Posted by johnj on March 23, 2003, at 21:49:45
In reply to Re: You're a good man too, Ron. (nm) » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on March 23, 2003, at 9:52:04
Hi Larry,
Well, I mentioned working out has been impossible for me as any sweating makes distrupts my sleep, etc. I went to a tai chi class Friday night from 7 to 9. My legs were wobbly after class and I thought here we go again. I took 200 mg of mangesium citrate (Since my latest slew of supplements arrived). I slept ok and didn't feel great, but more importantly not totally crappy either. I ended up planting 50 pine trees on Saturday and thought "well it will catch up with me". I took another 200 mg Saturday night with my 50 mg TCA. Seemed to sleep well, no longer than usual but felt decent today. Didn't seem to grind my teeth as much either....hmmm.
So after dinner tonight (Sunday) I felt a little irritable but took 200 mg MG with dinner and just took another 200 now. I was suprised to see that 400 mg of MG citrate was the daily recommended allowance. I drink a couple of cups of milk a day but wonder if this is placebo? I generally don't get the placebo effect. I really hope I stumbled upon something here. If I did, I got it from the MG thread and with your help. All the time I spend researching stuff sure seemed worth it to have 2 days of relative peace. Thank you.I get the feeling supplements are more important than most drepressives think. Herbs are more questionable to me, but supplements might command a strong presence that is somewhat overlooked by docs etc.
Sometimes I feel a little guilty that I don't offer more here. I seem to ask a lot of questions. If I am able to help one person for even one day I would feel good. Hopefully I can repay the help I have gotten here. Have a good one.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 24, 2003, at 8:18:34
In reply to We are all good guys :) » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 23, 2003, at 21:49:45
> Hi Larry,
>
> Well, I mentioned working out has been impossible for me as any sweating makes distrupts my sleep, etc. I went to a tai chi class Friday night from 7 to 9. My legs were wobbly after class and I thought here we go again. I took 200 mg of mangesium citrate (Since my latest slew of supplements arrived). I slept ok and didn't feel great, but more importantly not totally crappy either. I ended up planting 50 pine trees on Saturday and thought "well it will catch up with me". I took another 200 mg Saturday night with my 50 mg TCA. Seemed to sleep well, no longer than usual but felt decent today. Didn't seem to grind my teeth as much either....hmmm.Bruxism is one sign of magnesium deficiency. You can also decrease the tendency by practicing releasing the tension in your jaw muscles during the day. One technique is to open your mouth ever so slightly, just enough to push your tongue out between your teeth. You'll naturally avoid biting your tongue, and the jaw muscles go slack. Once you get in that habit, try to remember to do it just before you fall asleep.
> So after dinner tonight (Sunday) I felt a little irritable but took 200 mg MG with dinner and just took another 200 now. I was suprised to see that 400 mg of MG citrate was the daily recommended allowance. I drink a couple of cups of milk a day but wonder if this is placebo? I generally don't get the placebo effect. I really hope I stumbled upon something here. If I did, I got it from the MG thread and with your help. All the time I spend researching stuff sure seemed worth it to have 2 days of relative peace. Thank you.
You're welcome.
> I get the feeling supplements are more important than most drepressives think. Herbs are more questionable to me, but supplements might command a strong presence that is somewhat overlooked by docs etc.Our aging bodies develop unique and special needs, as time goes on. One analogy I use is that we're more like a car that burns oil. If we fail to top up the oil between changes, the motor will suffer more and more damage. However, if we keep supplementing the oil, the car will otherwise run quite well.
The problem is that people don't come with dipsticks, and there are many possible substances which may need topping up. Then you get into a little bit of detective work to try and sort it all out.
> Sometimes I feel a little guilty that I don't offer more here. I seem to ask a lot of questions.Don't feel quilty on account of me. I'm sure your questions have helped others already.
> If I am able to help one person for even one day I would feel good. Hopefully I can repay the help I have gotten here. Have a good one.
>
> johnjJust keep letting us know of your successes, and you've helped everyone already.
Take care,
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.