![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 54 to 78 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2001, at 16:10:31
In reply to Re: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » Mitchell, posted by jay on December 28, 2001, at 13:50:14
> > I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial...
Yes, please, thanks.
Bob
Posted by christophrejmc on December 28, 2001, at 17:24:06
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35
>I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.
Have you heard of docs in the U.S. writing scripts for amisulpride to be filled elsewhere? I'm quite interested in trying amisulpride, but ordering it from overseas seems really expensive and I'd rather stay within the law (however ridiculous it is). Do you know if it's generally cheaper to order it with a prescription?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by OldSchool on December 28, 2001, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35
> Hi, "OldSchool." I believe I recognize you from your writing style and some things you've said. Nice to chat with you again.
Hehehe
>
> I used to have a really good pdoc in W-S, but she's not taking new patients right now. Dr. Mattox seems like he might be a good choice. I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
>
> I tried getting in touch with Duke and I agree with you about them -- although there may be some research types there who are willing to try anything vaguely exotic, their outpatient clinic is definitely not the place to go if you haven't had adequate success from conventional treatments.Wasnt that a joke? I can already guess what happened to you. You called Duke Psychiatry expecting to experience the vaunted, elite "Duke Psychiatry" services but just got TRIAGED. What a joke. Duke clinical psychiatry is no good. They make you see a "mood disorders counselor" for an hour to do initial eval before they even let you talk to a psychiatrist. What a f**cking joke.
My problem is that although regular ADs like Parnate and desipramine improve my mood, the anergia and anhedonia aren't as easy to get rid of.
Duke psychiatry is ridiculously, outrageously overhyped. Duke does have a good ECT unit though. Thats the best thing about Duke Psychiatry...the rest of it, um well you can have it. How Duke psychiatry always makes it into those top ten ratings for psychiatry departments in US News and World Report I have no idea, because their clinical psychiatry department is no good.
Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
Susan Van Meter in particular is stone cold and I DO NOT recommend her. She is head of Duke mood disorders and also in charge of inpatient. She has the personality of a robot. AVOID.
>
> My doctor in NJ recommended some people at Chapel Hill who might be willing to see me for a consultation. I'm hoping that if I can't find a really good psychiatrist here to see regularly, I can at least see someone good once for a consultation and that person can make some recommendations that my regular pdoc will be willing to listen to.I like UNC much better than Duke. Its more "user friendly" than Duke is. The UNC idea might be a good one. There is a small neuropsychiatry group in Chapel Hill that does a lot of clinical trials for psych drugs. Im sure you could get those guys to let you try the stuff you wanna try. Its called "Carolina Neuropsychiatry" or something like that and they claim to like to work with any kind of weird or unusual neuropsychiatric condition. They have a website.
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of pdocs who are very arrogant seem to be well respected around here. The outpatient clinic at Baptist is much like what you describe experiencing at Duke.Baptist psychiatry is no good. I will NOT use Baptist psychiatry, nor will I use Duke psychiatry. Id rather use the local "Joe blow" psychiatrist in private practice than these arrogant overrated psychiatrists at Duke or Baptist.
Another thing, if you ever consider ECT, do not have it done at Baptist...their ECT unit is no good.
>
> BTW: I haven't been diagnosed with epilepsy because none of the tests confirm that the episodes I've been having (which are very infrequent so I haven't been able to have an EEG while I was having one) are seizures. I think the neurology department at Baptist is supposed to be pretty good (certainly better than the psych department!) and hopefully I will be able to get some help there. Trileptal is a pretty good, side effect free anticonvulsant; the only problem I have with it is that it's so expensive.Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe. My Grandmother had major surgery for a broken neck a year and a half ago at Baptist neurosurgery and they did a fine job. Baptist Neurology is fine Im 100% sure. Also, Baptist orthopedic surgery is OUTSTANDING...the best in the state actually. Baptist has the best Sports Medicine unit...David Martin scoped my knee years ago. Really good sports medicine at Baptist.
Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
Old School
Posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 5:37:00
In reply to amisulpride » Elizabeth, posted by christophrejmc on December 28, 2001, at 17:24:06
> Have you heard of docs in the U.S. writing scripts for amisulpride to be filled elsewhere?
Not specifically amisulpride, but I know it's legal -- although there may be a lot of red tape, I'm not entirely sure -- to prescribe drugs not approved in the U.S. and get them from other countries. I have known American doctors who've done this with moclobemide, for example.
I'm not sure about the cost, as I don't have any personal experience getting meds from overseas (either the completely legit way, or using OPs). I gather that OPs tend to be pretty expensive, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 6:00:55
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 28, 2001, at 19:36:27
> I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
Parnate's not what I'm worried about. Can you tell me what else you know about him, and how?
> Wasnt that a joke? I can already guess what happened to you. You called Duke Psychiatry expecting to experience the vaunted, elite "Duke Psychiatry" services but just got TRIAGED.
Yeah, they referred me to their outpatient clinic, which is *not* what I wanted -- it's just a bunch of general psychiatrists, and like those at WFU they are *very* conservative and rigid about what they will even consider prescribing (even if you're already taking it!).
> They make you see a "mood disorders counselor" for an hour to do initial eval before they even let you talk to a psychiatrist. What a f**cking joke.
An "intake appointment" is what they call that, I think (in general, maybe Duke has a different term for it). The idea is so they can get a sense of what you need and presumably find a doctor and/or therapist who'll be appropriate for you. The underlying assumption is, of course, that they know what you need better than you do.
> Duke psychiatry is ridiculously, outrageously overhyped. Duke does have a good ECT unit though.
If I ever get desperate enough to consider ECT, I'll consider that. I see ECT as a last resort, a sort of ace up my sleeve. At first I thought that the stories of bad things happening after ECT were just $cientologist propaganda, but since then I've seen reports coming from people who aren't just anti-psychiatry nuts. That's what has me worried: my memory, intelligence, etc. is the best thing I have going for me, and losing that would be a disaster for me.
> Thats the best thing about Duke Psychiatry...the rest of it, um well you can have it.
No thanks!
> How Duke psychiatry always makes it into those top ten ratings for psychiatry departments in US News and World Report I have no idea, because their clinical psychiatry department is no good.
The sad thing is, other places are even worse! McLean is always in the top three, but their outpatient clinic assigns you to a random pdoc and really isn't that great -- the really good doctors don't work out of the clinic, you have to ask for them specifically and a lot of them don't see patients I think (they just do research). McLean's mood & anxiety disorders partial program is so-so, but definitely not as good as the one I was in at a private clinic in Cambridge. I think hospitals have too many policies, regulations, red tape, etc. to be really effective.
> Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
I think that he might be one of the people whose names my doctor in Princeton gave me, actually. I wish I could find that list! (I'm chronically disorganized.)
> I like UNC much better than Duke. Its more "user friendly" than Duke is. The UNC idea might be a good one. There is a small neuropsychiatry group in Chapel Hill that does a lot of clinical trials for psych drugs. Im sure you could get those guys to let you try the stuff you wanna try.
That's interesting, and I'll keep it in mind. I don't want to get involved in clinical trials, though. I probably wouldn't qualify anyway b/c I'd have to go off all meds and then I'd be too severely depressed, and even if I did qualify, I might end up in the placebo group! That would suck.
> Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe.
Yeah, my dad is getting treated for heart disease there -- he had n-tuple bypass surgery when I was twelve or so, today he's on a bunch of meds + special diet and exercise programs, and he's doing much better than he has in years.
> Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
I think I'll look him up -- he's very nearby. One problem I have with a lot of the private psychiatrists around here is that I can't talk to them before making an appointment, only their secretaries. So I have a hard time finding out what they're like.
> And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
The distance might be a problem -- any idea how long a drive it would be? (New York and DC are okay because I have relatives I could stay with there, and the Research Triangle is close enough that I could go there and back in a day.)
> Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
It's true. That's why I was hoping to get a consultation with someone who really knows their stuff, so that I'd be able to get some recommendations that someone here might listen to.
I hope you're doing well. Take it easy!
-elizabeth
Posted by OldSchool on December 29, 2001, at 10:09:42
In reply to Re: pdocs in NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 6:00:55
> > I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
>
> Parnate's not what I'm worried about. Can you tell me what else you know about him, and how?I found out about Mattox thru my offline support group. The group facilitator, who is a masters degree level social worker at one of the local county mental health clinics told me about Mattox. At that time (this was about two years ago) I was looking for a new doctor, someone who was an "expert psychopharmacologist." Mattox's name came up, along with someone else's name whom Im not using on this board. This person who is facilitator at my offline support group used to work at Charter mental hospital in Winston before they shut down after Charter got sued and all. She also used to work over at Forsyth Memorial psych ward. And she got to know all the psychiatrists in the Winston area. So I trust her opinion on this stuff.
So anyway, in my offline support group I have this reputation as being the "med guy" who is all into biological psychiatry stuff. And the facilitator told me Mattox might be a good choice for me. She said that in the hospital (Forsyth Memorial) he was always pushy about having everything exact on charts and things...kind of dictatorial. Wanted things done fast and exact. Like he is kind of impatient with the hospital staff and just wants to cut thru the bull. And very good and knowledgeable about psychopharmacology. She also informed me that he referred one of his patients who was TRD to NIMH for further referral, which evidently really impressed all the social workers and low level mental health worker people.
If a psychiatrist voluntarily refers you to NIMH, that means they are interested in getting you better and they are willing to go the "extra mile" for you.
So I called New Directions and found they dont take the kind of insurance I have, otherwise I would have used Mattox myself.
Thats what I know about him. He is probably the best psychopharmacologist in the Winston area, probably in the whole Triad.
Just for your information, cause I know you are into opiates and all that kind of stuff, there is a psychiatrist over in the High Point area named Lauer whose specialty tends to be addiction. Im not telling you this cause I think you have an addiction problem, I dont. Im just telling you this cause Lauer has a good reputation as a general adult psychiatrist who knows a lot about meds AND he would know all about opiates, amphetamines, etc. and all that kind of stuff you are into.
Being that you know so interested in opiates and like to discuss them, Lauer might be a guy to go to. However as I said, he specializes more in getting people OFF addictive meds like opiates or booze, than in using them to treat mood disorders. However in your particular case which is unusual, you might click with Lauer. I heard he was OK as a psychiatrist, my family doc recommended him to me once and I have absolutely zippo substance abuse problems.
> An "intake appointment" is what they call that, I think (in general, maybe Duke has a different term for it). The idea is so they can get a sense of what you need and presumably find a doctor and/or therapist who'll be appropriate for you. The underlying assumption is, of course, that they know what you need better than you do.
I found Susan Van Meter extremely condescending and insolent, didnt even bother to shake my hand. DUMC is also very bad about getting your insurance paperwork screwed up, screwing up billing, etc.
> > Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
>
> I think that he might be one of the people whose names my doctor in Princeton gave me, actually. I wish I could find that list! (I'm chronically disorganized.)Mark George referred me to Gaddhi when I left MUSC, but Gaddhi wasnt taking patients. I was told he mostly did research and only had two or three patients. If you could talk him into taking you, he might be worth it though. John Beyer is OK also, a nice guy I heard although very busy.
>
>
> That's interesting, and I'll keep it in mind. I don't want to get involved in clinical trials, though. I probably wouldn't qualify anyway b/c I'd have to go off all meds and then I'd be too severely depressed, and even if I did qualify, I might end up in the placebo group! That would suck.Same here I dont do clinical trials anymore. Im done with that stuff.
>
> > Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe.
>
> Yeah, my dad is getting treated for heart disease there -- he had n-tuple bypass surgery when I was twelve or so, today he's on a bunch of meds + special diet and exercise programs, and he's doing much better than he has in years.Yeah, Baptist is good overall.
>
> > Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
>
> I think I'll look him up -- he's very nearby. One problem I have with a lot of the private psychiatrists around here is that I can't talk to them before making an appointment, only their secretaries. So I have a hard time finding out what they're like.
>I dont agree with that. I think Mattox would talk to you on the phone first if you asked him to call you. Call his office, ask his secretary if he takes your insurance and if he does ask Mattox to call you first before you decide to go with him. I bet he'd talk to you first on the phone.
> > And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
>
> The distance might be a problem -- any idea how long a drive it would be? (New York and DC are okay because I have relatives I could stay with there, and the Research Triangle is close enough that I could go there and back in a day.)MUSC is about six hours driving from the Triad.
>
> > Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
>
> It's true. That's why I was hoping to get a consultation with someone who really knows their stuff, so that I'd be able to get some recommendations that someone here might listen to.
Id move back up North if I were you. Im seriously considering moving to Connecticut to live with my family there. NC sucks overall for psychiatry...everything about mental health here sucks. The laws regarding mental illness suck, the doctors suck...its better in New England.Old School
Posted by Mitchell on December 29, 2001, at 12:10:00
In reply to Redirect: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty?, posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2001, at 16:10:31
> > > I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial...
>
> Yes, please, thanks.
>
> Bob
Okay, but a link would probably be helpful for those who don't routinely read that other board.I requested additional information, from Jay or from anybody else, at: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20011216/msgs/15986.html
Posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 12:20:58
In reply to Balancing Supplements » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 18:07:28
Hi IsoM --
I have been wanting to get someone's opinion about a chiropracter I see, who believes all mental health issues are nutrition related, and can be treated solely through vitamins, herbs, etc.He mostly uses Standard Process vitamins ("Cataplex B" "Catalyn" etc.) and some by Biotics Research Corp.
He determines what vitamins I need, and how many pills I should take, by "muscle testing." (Have you ever heard of that before?) For me, he said I was extremely low in Vitamin B and protein (even thought I am very conscious of eating a lot of protein and not too many carbs).
Then, he threw some herbs my way, also by Standard Process. They include: "Chaste Tree", and a combination of Schisandra fruit, Damiana leaf, Skullcap herb, and St. John's Wort.
I have not taken the herbs, because I hear that they can be just as potent as meds but aren't regulated by the FDA ... I'm too leary to take them.
Do you know anything about what I've mentioned here? About the Standard Process company (who claims that they are "all natural" and that any other vitamin out there is not doing anything for you because it is not even synthesized into your system)? About muscle testing? Or about the herbs I mentioned?
I greatly appreciate your feedback. I am getting fed up with all the meds I try that don't work, and would love to be able to be treated "naturally," although I am skeptical.
If this post doesn't catch your eye since it's from an earlier thread, I'll make it a new thread later.
Thanks again,
cindy
Posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 14:15:05
In reply to Questions for IsoM re vitamins, herbs » IsoM, posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 12:20:58
Cindy, what I'm writing you is my opinion based on what science & actual facts I know of. I realise not everyone will agree with me & that's fine but you did ask. Before I answer your question, for any others who may read this, I did manage a health food store a number of years ago & am a firm believer in good & sound nutrition but...
What your chiropractor is telling you is essentially bogus. There is no way by "muscle testing" that anyone can diagnose whether a person is low in certain nutrients or not. It's akin to many other 'New Age' treatments like swinging a pendulum in front of a person or holding a supplement near them to judge reactions. For effectiveness, it ranks along with telling a person's health by looking at the entrails of a chicken or by tossing dice. What benefits are felt is by placebo effect.
You can request blood tests from a doctor that CAN measure many levels of certain nutrients such as folic acid, B12, iron, calcium levels, etc. It may not just be blood tests but there are bonafide methods to tell.There are herbs which do have therapeutic effects - some are very potent, some aren't. My biggest beef with herbs is because they're not regulated, there's no guarantee on the potency of the active ingredients. Many different tests have been done on herbal supplements, some even by high school students as science projects, most by news agencies (using good labs for testing) reporting on herbs as a health-related news item. Tests have come back showing varying amounts of active ingredients - some have even come back showing absolutely none of what's supposed to be in the herbal supplements!
If you think you have a good source of herbs, you can always check with a good pharmacist for drug interactions with herbs. There's a thick handbook most pharmacies carry listing all known interactions. You can use this site to check for some drug interactions yourself & the benefits of the herbs you listed.
http://www.thedacare.org/healthinfo/
Just choose Herbal Remedies & also the Safety Checker.One time when I went off Paxil, I tried St. John's wort from a trusted company. I saw no effects though I went to the maximum level. Maybe it's not effective with my chemistry.
As for vitamins - it's from a chemistry & biology viewpoint, I have taken university levels courses, but never finished my degree, so my info is pretty factual. Whether a plant synthesises a vitamin, or a laboratory does, IF it's the same molecular structure, it's the same vitamin - same properties & benefits. Some vitamins cannot be synthesised successfully. Vitamin E is one of them. The synthetic form is a mirror image of the natural form (like our left hand vs our right hand). The synthetic form is relatively inactive so the natural form is needed. But for the B complex vitamins & vitamin C, lab-synthesised forms are just as effective & much, much cheaper. Still, I prefer to get my B vitamins from food as few, if any, B complex tablets have all the B vitamins or in a proper proportion. I use wheat germ, grains, beans, & nutritional yeast flakes for my B vitamins.
If you want to take a B supplement instead, you'll find much less expensive tablets in a good drug store. Just buy the ones that say "Stress" tabs (it generally includes vitamin C too) - they're the best balanced.
As for protein, it's *highly* unlikely you're deficient in protein by what you wrote. If he's recommending amino acid supplementation, that's all proteins are - amino acids, & you wouldn't need them either.
I do so understand how you feel taking meds. Sometimes I get fed up with them, but I've tried to do without antidepressants three times now. I realise that even with the healthiest diet, good & active lifestyle, & a positive cheerful outlook, I still need something extra. Chalk it up to bad genetics and/or a polluted environment now - I don't know but I do need extra.
Sorry to sound such a sour note about your chiropractor's recommendations but so much of what's said is phrased in "pseudo-scientific" language & it sounds believable for someone who may not have the science/biology/chemistry information to really analyse what is said.
***************************************************************************************************
> Hi IsoM --
> I have been wanting to get someone's opinion about a chiropracter I see, who believes all mental health issues are nutrition related, and can be treated solely through vitamins, herbs, etc.
>
> He mostly uses Standard Process vitamins ("Cataplex B" "Catalyn" etc.) and some by Biotics Research Corp.
>
> He determines what vitamins I need, and how many pills I should take, by "muscle testing." (Have you ever heard of that before?) For me, he said I was extremely low in Vitamin B and protein (even thought I am very conscious of eating a lot of protein and not too many carbs).
>
> Then, he threw some herbs my way, also by Standard Process. They include: "Chaste Tree", and a combination of Schisandra fruit, Damiana leaf, Skullcap herb, and St. John's Wort.
>
> I have not taken the herbs, because I hear that they can be just as potent as meds but aren't regulated by the FDA ... I'm too leary to take them.
>
> Do you know anything about what I've mentioned here? About the Standard Process company (who claims that they are "all natural" and that any other vitamin out there is not doing anything for you because it is not even synthesized into your system)? About muscle testing? Or about the herbs I mentioned?
>
> I greatly appreciate your feedback. I am getting fed up with all the meds I try that don't work, and would love to be able to be treated "naturally," although I am skeptical.
>
> If this post doesn't catch your eye since it's from an earlier thread, I'll make it a new thread later.
>
> Thanks again,
> cindy
>
Posted by stjames on January 2, 2002, at 15:01:23
In reply to re vitamins, herbs, muscle testing » Cindylou, posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 14:15:05
Sorry to sound such a sour note about your chiropractor's recommendations but so much of what's said is phrased in "pseudo-scientific" language & it sounds believable for someone who may not have the science/biology/chemistry information to really analyse what is said.
James here....
I am GLAD you spoke up. I get tired of refuting
every quack concept posted here. Chiropractor's
are not per-se bad, but this persons chiropractor
hit all the marks that indicate a quack.On can look these things up on the internet; ie research. here is one: http://www.chirowatch.com/
The keys to calling this doc a qwack were: 1) Muscle testing 2) selling herbs and vitamins 3)
Saying all mental illness is caused by lack of
vits or mins.As always, extreme claims require extreme proof.
Take a look at: http://www.quackwatch.com/
Posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 17:17:47
In reply to Re: re vitamins, herbs, muscle testing, posted by stjames on January 2, 2002, at 15:01:23
> this persons chiropractor
hit all the marks that indicate a quack.Hi James,
"This person" is me, cindy. I appreciate your remarks -- and really respect the comments you make on this board.I have been struggling with whether or not to trust this chiropracter, since he has a PhD in clinical nutrition and is somewhat of an alternative medicine "celebrity" in my area.
You and IsoM have helped affirm my initial skepticism of him, and I thank you for that. Now I can move ahead and not worry about whether this guy can help me or not.
Thanks,
cindy> James here....
>
> I am GLAD you spoke up. I get tired of refuting
> every quack concept posted here. Chiropractor's
> are not per-se bad, but >
> On can look these things up on the internet; ie research. here is one: http://www.chirowatch.com/
> The keys to calling this doc a qwack were: 1) Muscle testing 2) selling herbs and vitamins 3)
> Saying all mental illness is caused by lack of
> vits or mins.
>
> As always, extreme claims require extreme proof.
> Take a look at: http://www.quackwatch.com/
Posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 17:25:51
In reply to re vitamins, herbs, muscle testing » Cindylou, posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 14:15:05
IsoM --
THANK YOU!!!!! Your informative response is just what I needed to hear. You answered all my questions and affirmed my skepticism.I greatly appreciate the time you spent writing your post to me. It has helped me more than you know.
take care,
cindy
> Cindy, what I'm writing you is my opinion based on what science & actual facts I know of. I realise not everyone will agree with me & that's fine but you did ask. Before I answer your question, for any others who may read this, I did manage a health food store a number of years ago & am a firm believer in good & sound nutrition but...
> What your chiropractor is telling you is essentially bogus. There is no way by "muscle testing" that anyone can diagnose whether a person is low in certain nutrients or not. It's akin to many other 'New Age' treatments like swinging a pendulum in front of a person or holding a supplement near them to judge reactions. For effectiveness, it ranks along with telling a person's health by looking at the entrails of a chicken or by tossing dice. What benefits are felt is by placebo effect.
> You can request blood tests from a doctor that CAN measure many levels of certain nutrients such as folic acid, B12, iron, calcium levels, etc. It may not just be blood tests but there are bonafide methods to tell.
>
> There are herbs which do have therapeutic effects - some are very potent, some aren't. My biggest beef with herbs is because they're not regulated, there's no guarantee on the potency of the active ingredients. Many different tests have been done on herbal supplements, some even by high school students as science projects, most by news agencies (using good labs for testing) reporting on herbs as a health-related news item. Tests have come back showing varying amounts of active ingredients - some have even come back showing absolutely none of what's supposed to be in the herbal supplements!
>
> If you think you have a good source of herbs, you can always check with a good pharmacist for drug interactions with herbs. There's a thick handbook most pharmacies carry listing all known interactions. You can use this site to check for some drug interactions yourself & the benefits of the herbs you listed.
> http://www.thedacare.org/healthinfo/
> Just choose Herbal Remedies & also the Safety Checker.
>
> One time when I went off Paxil, I tried St. John's wort from a trusted company. I saw no effects though I went to the maximum level. Maybe it's not effective with my chemistry.
>
> As for vitamins - it's from a chemistry & biology viewpoint, I have taken university levels courses, but never finished my degree, so my info is pretty factual. Whether a plant synthesises a vitamin, or a laboratory does, IF it's the same molecular structure, it's the same vitamin - same properties & benefits. Some vitamins cannot be synthesised successfully. Vitamin E is one of them. The synthetic form is a mirror image of the natural form (like our left hand vs our right hand). The synthetic form is relatively inactive so the natural form is needed. But for the B complex vitamins & vitamin C, lab-synthesised forms are just as effective & much, much cheaper. Still, I prefer to get my B vitamins from food as few, if any, B complex tablets have all the B vitamins or in a proper proportion. I use wheat germ, grains, beans, & nutritional yeast flakes for my B vitamins.
>
> If you want to take a B supplement instead, you'll find much less expensive tablets in a good drug store. Just buy the ones that say "Stress" tabs (it generally includes vitamin C too) - they're the best balanced.
>
> As for protein, it's *highly* unlikely you're deficient in protein by what you wrote. If he's recommending amino acid supplementation, that's all proteins are - amino acids, & you wouldn't need them either.
>
> I do so understand how you feel taking meds. Sometimes I get fed up with them, but I've tried to do without antidepressants three times now. I realise that even with the healthiest diet, good & active lifestyle, & a positive cheerful outlook, I still need something extra. Chalk it up to bad genetics and/or a polluted environment now - I don't know but I do need extra.
>
> Sorry to sound such a sour note about your chiropractor's recommendations but so much of what's said is phrased in "pseudo-scientific" language & it sounds believable for someone who may not have the science/biology/chemistry information to really analyse what is said.
>
> ***************************************************************************************************
>
>
> > Hi IsoM --
> > I have been wanting to get someone's opinion about a chiropracter I see, who believes all mental health issues are nutrition related, and can be treated solely through vitamins, herbs, etc.
> >
> > He mostly uses Standard Process vitamins ("Cataplex B" "Catalyn" etc.) and some by Biotics Research Corp.
> >
> > He determines what vitamins I need, and how many pills I should take, by "muscle testing." (Have you ever heard of that before?) For me, he said I was extremely low in Vitamin B and protein (even thought I am very conscious of eating a lot of protein and not too many carbs).
> >
> > Then, he threw some herbs my way, also by Standard Process. They include: "Chaste Tree", and a combination of Schisandra fruit, Damiana leaf, Skullcap herb, and St. John's Wort.
> >
> > I have not taken the herbs, because I hear that they can be just as potent as meds but aren't regulated by the FDA ... I'm too leary to take them.
> >
> > Do you know anything about what I've mentioned here? About the Standard Process company (who claims that they are "all natural" and that any other vitamin out there is not doing anything for you because it is not even synthesized into your system)? About muscle testing? Or about the herbs I mentioned?
> >
> > I greatly appreciate your feedback. I am getting fed up with all the meds I try that don't work, and would love to be able to be treated "naturally," although I am skeptical.
> >
> > If this post doesn't catch your eye since it's from an earlier thread, I'll make it a new thread later.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > cindy
> >
Posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 18:16:10
In reply to Re: re vitamins, herbs, muscle testing » IsoM, posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 17:25:51
Posted by susan C on January 3, 2002, at 12:58:35
In reply to You're Very Welcome! (nm) » Cindylou, posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 18:16:10
Posted by Magee on April 2, 2004, at 15:34:30
In reply to Thanks ,too (nm) » IsoM, posted by susan C on January 3, 2002, at 12:58:35
I am a firm believer in muscle testing to gain information about the body/mind.
Psych meds are such a "crap shoot" and I am tired of being a guniea pig. At this point I am looking for someone who can muscle test me for the appropriate antidepressant and also for the mild Bipolar II I now know I suffer from.
I live in Massachusetts but will go to NY or even California.
Anyone have any helpful experience along these lines?
No muscle testing bashers please...
Thanks
Martha who is suffering
Posted by glenn on April 3, 2004, at 9:13:08
In reply to Muscle testing and psychopharmocology, posted by Magee on April 2, 2004, at 15:34:30
Just a thought, why not try a proper psychopharmacologist who found the right drug for me in 30 minutes ( after years of fools).
He is Dr Jensen of Laguna Niguel and has a rather unique system, he charged me $300 for 2 hours and that's all it needed.
Iam not saying it works for everyone but at least there is a lot more in it than the usual -" This is my favourite"
" oh an ssri doesn't work so lets try a trycyclic"
" I've never used that one before"
or any of the other deep insightful medicational choice systems I previously experienced!
( and this takes years to learn ??!!)Good luck with whatever you decide.
Glenn
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2004, at 10:18:37
In reply to Muscle testing and psychopharmocology, posted by Magee on April 2, 2004, at 15:34:30
> I am a firm believer in muscle testing to gain information about the body/mind.
I have never heard of this. Can you give me some idea as to what it is all about? It sounds interesting. Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 12:16:03
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology, posted by glenn on April 3, 2004, at 9:13:08
>Dear Glenn,
Thank you so much for responding! Your message gave me hope. You see, discouragement is a big part of my problem and the bozos I have thus far seen have been a real obstacle to my getting well. I have struggled for so long (since my teens and I am 50 now). I have finally after years of fighting it, accepted that I have a mood disorder in addition to cycles of deep depression. The depressions get deeper and worse the longer I sink. One thing I am really clear on is that the SUN helps me enormously! For instance, this winter when I was in California (San Diego area) I took daily sunbaths and came ALIVE! This is a huge component for me not to be overlooked.I live in dreary grey cold New England and it is the absolute WRONG climate for me. I have Seasonal Affective Disorder BIG TIME. But it's not just that. And for me to accept meds it's got to be from a Dr I can have faith in who's really on the beam. I am so grateful to you for the name of Dr Jensen. I am planning to move to Encinitas as soon as possible but I am so depressed (Black hole for the last month now, can barely bath dress or feed myself),
I can't even move forward with that.
I think I will give Dr Jensen a call and see what he says.
I have done well on Celexa in the past ~ it lifted my depression and soothed my anxiety. Was on it for 8 months. Prozac made me feel fantastic, but caused angry outbursts. The last Doc I went to put me on Lithium - it made me feel terrible. My sister had the same reaction.
Anyway, thank you so much. I would be glad to hear from you more about your experience.
Peaceful wishes
Magee
ps Are you English?Just a thought, why not try a proper psychopharmacologist who found the right drug for me in 30 minutes ( after years of fools).
> He is Dr Jensen of Laguna Niguel and has a rather unique system, he charged me $300 for 2 hours and that's all it needed.
> Iam not saying it works for everyone but at least there is a lot more in it than the usual -
>
> " This is my favourite"
> " oh an ssri doesn't work so lets try a trycyclic"
> " I've never used that one before"
> or any of the other deep insightful medicational choice systems I previously experienced!
> ( and this takes years to learn ??!!)
>
> Good luck with whatever you decide.
>
> Glenn
Posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 12:27:39
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » Magee, posted by SLS on April 3, 2004, at 10:18:37
HI Scott,
Thank you for responding. I am so lonely out here, I appreciate any connections.
Muscle Testing is known as Applied Kinesiology. It is a system of tapping into the body for information through a simple technique which you could probably find explained on the web alot better than I can explain it ( I am really bad at explaining technical stuff). I have found it valuable in the past.
It is utilized by many holistic practitionersand I have had good results with it. It is more intuitive than scientific as it is an ancient practice. Of course it is a completely different belief system and most MD's scoff at such things. My belief is that it would be enormously helpful to have a way to determine exactly what the body/ mind needs before prescribing heavy duty meds arbitrarily to someone. Let's face it - it's a crap shoot otherwise, and we are the guinea pigs.
I'm not maligning the Docs per se, but the system I have so far been unsatisfied with.
Hope that helps.
Magee
Posted by glenn on April 3, 2004, at 16:43:58
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » glenn, posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 12:16:03
Hi,
Yes you are right I am from England, how did you guess, the deep strategy behind my previous( english) docs prescribing strategy?
Two other possibles for you, firstly a light box, you may already have tried one of these, secondly high vitamin d doses, there are some studies suggesting this can have a beneficial effect on symptoms such as yours.
Good luck with them all, I think you may have had sufficient trials to give Dr Jensen some good clues! - first thing he said to me was " my you have come a long way" but it was worth it!Glenn
Posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 19:04:33
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology, posted by glenn on April 3, 2004, at 16:43:58
Nope.. HA! Guess again. Give up??????????????????????
It was the way you spelled "favourite". You see, I am part English too and WE English just KNOW these things!
Anyway, thanks for your two very good suggestions. I REALLY DO need to get a Light Box and the VIT D sounds worth a try.
If you don't mind, would you mind sharing the nature of your mental illness ( just re-read that and it cracked me up ! Sorry......I have a silly side.)
I would just be curious to know if we share any of the same issues.
Be WELL.
Me too.
Magee
Posted by glenn on April 4, 2004, at 9:24:15
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » glenn, posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 19:04:33
Sure , no problem.
It is a strange form of anxiety disorder, no suicidal thoughts or intentions, no panic attacks, no sweating or trembling, "just" fear, ie the mental aspect.
Fera of nothing in particular, so no phobias, but of everything, ie at one point I would not answer the phone and speak to friends and would no be able to walk 50 yards down the road!
Great difficulty concentrating, some bad " song in the head" and an awful feeling of terror.
Basically after much study I think it was a problem of the amygdala going into hyperdrive and not turning off.
The ONLY turn off was xanax, valium made me a lot worse anxiety wise, librium made me depressed.
Celexa is good but in a different way, less rejection sensitivity ( a lot less !!!) and more ability to say go away to annoying unpleasant and usually negative thought patterns, a sort of battery to make cbt work ( it never did squat before)
Only xanax gets the worst of it, but I only need it now 2-3 times a month due to other mildly helpful things and its reassuring effect ( a xanax in my pocket is worth 10 in my tum!)
I am 80-90% better, as evidenced by the fact that I only look at psychobabble a couple of times a month instead of constantly.
Hope you get similar relief and more .Glenn
Posted by spoc on April 8, 2004, at 1:13:08
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » SLS, posted by Magee on April 3, 2004, at 12:27:39
Hi Magee,
Have you seen the link to psychopharmacology right at the bottom of the main Babble boards? I missed it until today. Might want to give it a try if you haven't. Here it is so you don't have to scroll all that way!
And smile, ok? Your simple statement below really jumped out at me for some reason. I'm reflecting on what "out here" might look like, and whatever it is, it doesn't sound pleasant and I don't like to think of you being lost in it all alone! Hope you get to borrow your neighbor's light box. I may have seen something about light too on the psychopharm link. : )
> Thank you for responding. I am so lonely out here, I appreciate any connections.
Posted by Magee on April 8, 2004, at 13:53:35
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » Magee, posted by spoc on April 8, 2004, at 1:13:08
>Thank you. You are so sweet. I REALLY felt encouraged when I read your loving words. Thank you for caring enough to write them. "Out here" is really "In here". But also I live on a cold lonely island in the North Atlantic and it's really bleak out here. I really need to get out of here and back to San Diego where I belong!
Love
Magee
ps been so depressed I STILL haven't moved on the light box. Ugh.Hi Magee,
>
> Have you seen the link to psychopharmacology right at the bottom of the main Babble boards? I missed it until today. Might want to give it a try if you haven't. Here it is so you don't have to scroll all that way!
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/
>
> And smile, ok? Your simple statement below really jumped out at me for some reason. I'm reflecting on what "out here" might look like, and whatever it is, it doesn't sound pleasant and I don't like to think of you being lost in it all alone! Hope you get to borrow your neighbor's light box. I may have seen something about light too on the psychopharm link. : )
>
> > Thank you for responding. I am so lonely out here, I appreciate any connections.
>
Posted by spoc on April 8, 2004, at 14:38:01
In reply to Re: Muscle testing and psychopharmocology » spoc, posted by Magee on April 8, 2004, at 13:53:35
> ...."Out here" is really "In here". But also I live on a cold lonely island in the North Atlantic and it's really bleak out here. I really need to get out of here and back to San Diego where I belong! >
That is EXACTLY what I was picturing -- with ominous black and blue skies heralding a brewing storm; and waves from turbulent seas crashing and shattering up on the rocks at the shoreline... Here come the intermittent but increasing lightening strikes out on the skyline, a wicked wind whipping towards you in sheets that bend trees .... In other words, like something on the cover of horror novel set in New England. Actually you did state in our light box thread that you lived in New England, but this really is how I would have pictured "Out here" anyway!
Uh oh, this may be the first time I get redirected to "PB Writing," never cracked that one open yet and already have enough trouble limiting myself on the rest of them! Er, let me add a bunch of words to slip me under the radar of the med board, like spammers do to slip through filters:
RITALIN KLONOPIN PROZAC NARDIL TRAZODONE! ;- )
Anyway, so glad I could help you smile today, that really helps me smile too! : )
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