Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 88248

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dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????

Posted by 3 Beer Effect on December 30, 2001, at 14:28:31

I am starting an amino acid therapy program as an alternative to psychiatric anti-depressants & am taking 5-htp & l-tyrosine, 750 mg of GABA, & a multi-vitamin. I am hoping this combination, along with an aerobic exercise & weight lifting program will restore my serotonin, norepinephrine, & dopamine, & GABA (A) to normal non-depressed levels.

The problem is that I cannot find any non-commercial sources of info about amino acids & have the following question-

Are both norepinephrine & dopamine both produced from the precursor l-tyrosine, or is norepinephrine produced from the precursor dl-phenylalanine & dopamine produced from l-tyrosine?

I know the synthesis of dopamine goes from l-tyrosine, to l-dopa, & then to dopamine.

But how does the body synthesize norepinephrine?

If the body produces both norepinephrine & dopamine from l-tyrosine, then what is the point of taking dl-phenlalynine? Does one of these amino acids cross the blood brain barrier easier than the other?

Also, any recommended dosages or dosing regimens?
Also, what are the half lives of 5-htp, dl-phenylalanine, & l-tyrosine? I currently take the 5-thp (starting at 50 mg but bottle says to slowly work way to 200 mg over a couple of weeks) & GABA (750 mg) just AT BEDTIME & the l-tyrosine (500 mg) just in the morning (since i'm afraid it might cause insomia?)?

 

Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????

Posted by JGalt on December 30, 2001, at 20:31:59

In reply to dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by 3 Beer Effect on December 30, 2001, at 14:28:31

The path after dopamine is dopamine > >norepinephrine > >epinephrine. Of course, there are also various enzymes along the way that can deactivate any of those, which is in part why the amount of epinephrine in the brain is very small (as are the number of receptors) in comparison to dopamine or norepinephrine. So therefore, both amino acids may eventually convert to both neurotransmitters. As for which crosses the blood brain barrier the easiest, I have read only one study on it, but it concluded that DL-Phenylaline was by far most effective in this respect.

In my experience, I get about the same effect from DL-phenylaline as I do from N-acetyl-tyrosine.

The main reason people take DL-phenylaline instead of l-tyrosine though is because DL-phenylaline is also able to convert to 2-Phenylethylamine, which has been suggested as everything from "the love chemical" to "nature's amphetamine". If the phenylaline converts to tyrosine, it cannot convert to 2-PEA. The main problem with PEA though is that it seems to have a rather short life in the brain, and though new dl-phenylaline crossing the blood brain barrier will bring more, the effect of the PEA will run out much faster than the other's effects. That is the primary reason a low dose of selegiline is usually combined with DL-phenylaline, because the selegiline will prevent the rapid breakdown of the 2-PEA.

Do you notice any effect from the GABA? It won't cross the blood-brain barrier, but some have said that its effects in relaxing the body are good nonethe less, especially in several gram doses.

Taking the L-tyrosine only in the morning is a reasonable idea, though you could probably take it anytime up to 8 hours before bed. The one caveat is that your stomach has to be empty (and I don't mean half empty!) for the amino acids to work properly.

When I used to play with amino's, I would often take 500mg of DL-Phen when I first woke up, then not eat breakfast, nor lunch, and then around 2 or so take some N-acetyl-tyrosine (converts a lot faster seems like than normal tyrosine), then finally eat a large meal around 5pm or so (this was a powerlifting/bodybuilding diet I was on, worked quite well with dosing amino's. You can still have anything that has only sugar in it and take the amino's, or even fat for that matter, just so long as nothing that had protein in it is in your stomach when you take them.

JGalt

 

re question about methione to Sam e conversion

Posted by 3 Beer Effect on December 30, 2001, at 23:47:18

In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by JGalt on December 30, 2001, at 20:31:59

J Galt, Is l-tyrosine different than n-acetyl-tyrosine? If so, who makes n-acetyl-tyrosine?

I can't tell if the GABA is working or not since I also take 1 mg of klonopin per day, split into 2 doses. I'm hoping the GABA will somehow augment the Klonopin but somehow I doubt it. One time when I first bought GABA I ate 9 grams to see if I could get an effect similar to the drug GHB that everyone seems to love so much (i've never tried it since I don't know how to make it)- It made me feel like cr*p. Kind of like I took too many Benadryl, & I felt hungover the next day. I used to take 1500 mg of GABA but I read in the Anxiety & Phobia workbook that you should not take more than 800 mg so now I just take 1 pill at bedtime (750 mg).

Anyways, about the aminos dl-phenylalanine & l-tyrosine--- If dopamine > >norepinephrine > >epinephrine then would I achieve the same net effect by just taking 2 bronkaid asthma tablets in the morning (50 mg ephedrine sulfate (oral epinephrine)? I am not really trying to achieve an amphetamine effect since I have excessive anxiety & social phobia around attractive women- I am just sick of psychiatric medications that don't work & make me 'dumb as a brick' & am trying to return the neurotransmitters in my brain back to my pre-depression normal person levels.

One more important question-- SAM-
E is ridiculously expensive $46 for 80 Nature's Made tablets at Costco which is the cheapest place to buy anything. I read that the precursor to SAM-E is methione. Methione is far cheaper, if I take that will it metabolize to SAM-E in my body, therefore achieving an anti-depressant effect while saving me lots of money?
Is methione an excitatory or an inhibitory transmitter?

Also, do you know of any aminos that would help with social phobia/anxiety? I guess all of the inhibitory aminos would be better than the excitatory for that condition??

Thanks, 3 beers

 

Re: re question about methione to Sam e conversion

Posted by JGalt on December 31, 2001, at 23:23:35

In reply to re question about methione to Sam e conversion, posted by 3 Beer Effect on December 30, 2001, at 23:47:18

> J Galt, Is l-tyrosine different than n-acetyl-tyrosine? If so, who makes n-acetyl-tyrosine?

Only place I know of is www.beyond-a-century.com . They also carry DL-phenylaline. No I am not affiliated with them.

> >One time when I first bought GABA I ate 9 grams to see if I could get an effect similar to the drug GHB that everyone seems to love so much (i've never tried it since I don't know how to make it)

It is next to impossible to make or buy ghb in the US these days. Anything that can be easily converted into ghb has been scheduled class 1(made highly illegal). I've talked to quite a few people who have used GABA, most of them had given up trying to use it as an antianxiety, but it did seem to have some potential as a sleep inducer at doses around 3.5-5grams I believe.

> Anyways, about the aminos dl-phenylalanine & l-tyrosine--- If dopamine > >norepinephrine > >epinephrine then would I achieve the same net effect by just taking 2 bronkaid asthma tablets in the morning (50 mg ephedrine sulfate (oral epinephrine)?

Ephedrine is by far not epinephrine. While it is true that eventually it causes the release of additional epinephrine (in addition to a few other things), it is not itself. Also, dopamine and norepinephrine are much more commonly implicated in depression than epinephrine. You'd be missing out on the beneficial effects of these other neurotransmitters. Not only that, you'd be counteracting most of the antianxiety benefits of the benzo's you're taking. While I use ephedrine myself on a daily basis, if I had significant problems with anxiety I would not be using the ephedrine. The other biggie problem with ephedrine is that you will develop quite a strong tolerance to it within a week. After that, it will be of only mild benefit in stimulation. I still use it because of frequent congestion and because I've noticed that even after I've been off of it for a long time, my energy levels are still lower than they were while on ephedrine. Finally, please note that ephedrine has a short half life, only around 6 hours. That means twice a day dosing. It works best when you haven't had any sugars for a while and on a relatively empty stomach.

> >I am just sick of psychiatric medications that don't work & make me 'dumb as a brick"

I will certainly agree with you on that one.

> >am trying to return the neurotransmitters in my brain back to my pre-depression normal person levels.< <

The problem with amino's is that you will likely develop a tolerance to them too with time. After taking dl-phenylaline and/or NA-tyrosine for more than about a week or so, they will begin to loose their effect (or so they did with me). By week two I didn't even know I was taking them. I tried jacking up the dose to ridiculous levels but I never regained the very pleasant stimulation of the first few days. There are many reasons for this which I don't feel like taking the time to explain here. If you continue with amino's, please be sure to add plenty of the b-vitamins and vitamin-c to your diet, they are essential cofactors to make many of the neurotransmitters.

> One more important question-- SAM-
> E is ridiculously expensive $46 for 80 Nature's Made tablets at Costco which is the cheapest place to buy anything. I read that the precursor to SAM-E is methione. Methione is far cheaper, if I take that will it metabolize to SAM-E in my body, therefore achieving an anti-depressant effect while saving me lots of money?
> Is methione an excitatory or an inhibitory transmitter?

I know very little about SAM-e. I believe it is L-methoine bonded with L-cysteine, though I could very easily be wrong on that. I have heard so many conflicting reports of SAM-e that I could never justify spending the money on it. Methoine isn't a neurotransmitter. One of its effects I believe is to lower histamine in the brain (which tends to be excitory), and it also lowers copper in the brain (which is excitory, though very easy to have too much of, which can cause anxiety and possibly poor memory). I never noticed anything from taking it, and I eventually found some information regarding possible health hazards with it that led me to stop my experimentation(sorry I'm so vague on that, this was a long time ago and I don't remember).

> Also, do you know of any aminos that would help with social phobia/anxiety? I guess all of the inhibitory aminos would be better than the excitatory for that condition??

I no longer believe in amino's as a long term solution to anything. I believe the problem is that in the course of depression or anxiety, neurotransmitter synthesis and release are compromised in some manner. Though amino's can temporarily relieve problems, after a while feedback mechanisms within the brain cause it to produce its previous levels of neurotransmitters. Your brain gets every amino acid it can possibly use whenever you eat meat or balanced protein, it would be very difficult to deplete your stores of any neurotransmitters short of not eating protein (in which case you'd die anyway after a long while). More likely than not, your brain is producing the wrong type and number of certain neurotransmitters, taking aminos will not modify that at all in the long run. Pharmaceutical options are by far best for depression and anxiety, save the amino's for occasional use when you need an extra boost for some purpose, leave the hard jobs to the drugs.

JGalt

 

Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????

Posted by stjames on December 31, 2001, at 23:55:05

In reply to dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by 3 Beer Effect on December 30, 2001, at 14:28:31

> I am starting an amino acid therapy program as an alternative to psychiatric anti-depressants & am taking 5-htp & l-tyrosine, 750 mg of GABA, & a multi-vitamin. I am hoping this combination, along with an aerobic exercise & weight lifting program will restore my serotonin, norepinephrine, & dopamine, & GABA (A) to normal non-depressed levels.


Depression and mental illness are not caused a lack of any of these, it is regulation that has changed. Intake of aminos is rate limited, you are just going to pee out most of what you take.
There is no point in taking mega doses, they are just flushed out.

In the malnurished, supplementation can bring on rapid improvement in mental state. Meat and dairy provide lots of aminos via protein; most food has
some protein, and therefor aminos.

Some do report a very slight improvement, I did, on trying amino supplements. You have to know what to take in addition for it to be effective. I just decided to eat better, which has the same effect, and is better and cheaper than pills.

Exercise is always good, but it is still just a adjunct, unless the condition is minor.

james

 

Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????

Posted by sjb on January 1, 2002, at 5:39:24

In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by stjames on December 31, 2001, at 23:55:05

What do you recommend for vegetarians?

 

Re: re question about methione to Sam e conversion

Posted by sjb on January 1, 2002, at 5:43:42

In reply to Re: re question about methione to Sam e conversion, posted by JGalt on December 31, 2001, at 23:23:35

> > >I am just sick of psychiatric medications that don't work & make me 'dumb as a brick"
>
> I will certainly agree with you on that one.
>
I'm reading Your Drug May Be Your Problem by Breggin and Cohen and am now concerned for all of us on pyschiatric medications.

 

Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????

Posted by stjames on January 1, 2002, at 12:32:53

In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by sjb on January 1, 2002, at 5:39:24

> What do you recommend for vegetarians?

Being well educated, so you are not malnurished.
One can be well fed and even a strict vegetarian.
many are foolish, thinking cutting out meat will
solve all the problems, without reading what meat provides and how you will get it from plant source.

 

Recommendations for Vegetarians » sjb

Posted by IsoM on January 1, 2002, at 13:13:37

In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs. l-tyrosine question????, posted by sjb on January 1, 2002, at 5:39:24

Make sure you get a balanced diet to provide you the proteins you need. Eat beans, grains, & lentils. If you don't even drink milk or eat eggs, make sure you take a vitamin B12 supplement. B12 is only found in animal products. If you're a pre-menopause woman, get a blood test from the doctor to see if you're getting enough iron in your diet. You can have enough iron with a vegetarian diet but again, you need to eat wisely.

A well-balanced vegetarian diet can be much healthier than a meat/vegetables diet.

> What do you recommend for vegetarians?

 

Re: Recommendations for Vegetarians

Posted by stjames on January 1, 2002, at 13:41:22

In reply to Recommendations for Vegetarians » sjb, posted by IsoM on January 1, 2002, at 13:13:37

> Make sure you get a balanced diet to provide you the proteins you need. Eat beans, grains, & lentils. If you don't even drink milk or eat eggs, make sure you take a vitamin B12 supplement. B12 is only found in animal products. If you're a pre-menopause woman, get a blood test from the doctor to see if you're getting enough iron in your diet. You can have enough iron with a vegetarian diet but again, you need to eat wisely.


Since we are talking about something so vital, I think it is very important to have a better understanding (as in reading and studing) than just having a simple check list.

I was ovo-lacto and then strict vegetartian for several years; now when I go the the whole food store it seems many look like they are starving or malnurished. There is no reason to allow this to happen, just because you do not eat meat and dairy. One sets out to eat better, does not have a clue, and ends malnurished.

 

Re: Recommendations for Vegetarians

Posted by IsoM on January 1, 2002, at 15:12:57

In reply to Re: Recommendations for Vegetarians, posted by stjames on January 1, 2002, at 13:41:22

I agree with you. I used to manage a health food store years ago & found too many people went overboard in avoding what they considered unhealthy foods. Being vegetarian & eating a healthy diet isn't hard at all. It doesn't require complex juggling of food groups, just sensible eating habits.

A good place to start learning is
< a href="http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/" target="_blank" >The Vegetarian Resource Group< /a >

**************************************************************************************************

> Since we are talking about something so vital, I think it is very important to have a better understanding (as in reading and studing) than just having a simple check list.
>
> I was ovo-lacto and then strict vegetartian for several years; now when I go the the whole food store it seems many look like they are starving or malnurished. There is no reason to allow this to happen, just because you do not eat meat and dairy. One sets out to eat better, does not have a clue, and ends malnurished.


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