![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Else on August 31, 2001, at 23:41:35
I have been wondering recently about what mental illness was *exactly*. I don't think I should care. I mean, if you feel bad, you feel bad and if something or someone can make you feel better than you should go for it right? But it doesn't seem to work that way at all. You have to have a good reason to feel bad. One thing that has always amazed me is the definition of major depression in the DSM-(III or IV, probably both) which states in its introduction that all those nasty feelings like self-hatred and deathwishes must be CLEARLY different from one's usual mood. I can't help but think that, if this is indeed one's *usual* mood then one must be severely ill. So why make this particular distinction?
I could never relate to the DSM definition because of this very distinction. I still feel like a fraud going to my pdoc's office while being only "dysthymic".I don't know if anyone can relate here but I feel somewhat discriminated against by mental health professionals because I have never been psychotic or so intensely suicidal that I would set myself on fire or something equally painful and gruesome (although I have attempted suicide, but it shouldn't matter one way or the other and that's my point).
It seems to me that the medical establishment is only interested in emergencies and is not too concerned with maintenance. Well duh! An obvious one. But it's even more the case where I live. I am writing this now because I feel I have been shrugged off by my doctor recently, presumably because he didn't think my problem was worth his while.
I have been having many difficulties at work all my life because I have always been so ,ahem, stimulus-bound. I am utterly convinced I have ADD for many reasons but the doctors where I live seem thoroughly opposed to the idea that an adult might have ADD. One of those reasons IMO(among many others), is that my performance at school and work improves greatly while I am on Wellbutrin (my doc un-prescribed it, of course, because it was not improving my mood. However my mood is not the problem here,or rather, it is secondary. I believe once I find a way to manage my life like an intelligent, reasonnable 26-year-old, my rotten mood will improve as a consequence).Anyways, I have spoken to him about this several times and he has ignored my complaints just as often. He seems to think that an intelligent young woman simply must be either a hysteric/borderline personnality-disordered neurotic or a drug abuser, whatever that means (and don't get me started, please, let just say I think 95% of so-called drug abuse is (sometimes misguided)self-medication).
Anyway. Many people have suggested I change docs. I WILL try but it is difficult here in Kanada and I might end up with much worse after several months (years?) on a waiting list. But this is not the reason why I wrote this at all. I just find that, often,people who are not accutelly psychotic and/or suicidal get shabby psychiatric care. Of course, I agree that suicidal gestures are the psychiatric equivalent of heart attacks and deserve more immediate attention than say, oh, trouble concentrating at work. However, in the long term, acute psychosis or suicidal thoughts, however destructive they may be, do get taken seriously. Absent-mindedness does not. Yet it can screw up one's life a great deal. I have had difficulties with what I am convinced (and at least one psychiatrist who is unfortunnately not my own) is AD/HD (stupid word by the way, you would think they could come up with something a bit more poetic). In any case. I am now 26 years old and I am convinced my whole life so far has been a huge waste of time. It's sad but that's how it is. I have recently found relief from rather severe social anxiety by the means of "homemade" CBT and effective meds. But my ADD is still screwing up my life, preventing me from keeping jobs longer than three months, causing me a great deal of grief in my social interactions and destroying any chance I could have of studying to get a decent job one day. But so what? It's not serious, is it? After all, I make jokes, I can get out of bed in the morning and I am not flinging myself off tall buildings so I guess I must be OK, right? After all, just one serious suicide attempt is no big deal. It's not like I'm thinking about killing myself every waking minute. (And BTW, I have felt that way in the past, I understand completely how horrible it is and don't mean to make light of this. I definitely believe people who are in this condition should get priority treatment at hospitals and I can understand why they would be irritated by someone whose "chief complaint" is having trouble paying attention).Well, my point is rather simple. Emergency medicine (which is just regular medicine in Canada) neglects less-severe, chronic cases. Everybody knows this already. But these minor disorders have a way of screwing up a person entire life, not just a couple of years of it. I hate the fact that I have a fairly high IQ, that I was always the top student in my class but that right now I am on welfare because I can't keep a job because I can't remember what happenned 20 minutes ago. I did great throughout high school because I could always catch up but college has been disastrous and I haven't accomplished anything significant in 10 years.
I feel kind of guilty complaining about this because I know many people have problems that are much more severe. I feel guilty saying something about it here and at my doctor's office. I imagine he's thinking about all his chronic schizophrenic patients and comparing them to me, a spoiled brat who just doesn't try hard enough. I am very easy to dismiss. But frankly, if someone told me nothing could be done for me, ever, I would kill myself. Hope is what has kept me alive for all these years. Maybe my doc is smarter than I think and has figured this out. Maybe he doesn't want to use a "last resort" treatment that might not work. But somehow I doubt it. Anyway, I am not sure this post even belongs here. If not I guess it will be redirected but, Gawd, all I meant to say is: Isn't there room for everyone? You can buy Tylenol for a minor headache at any 7-11 in the world and if you're accutely psychotic you are pretty much garanteed treatment but there's this huge gap in the middle for people who would have been called "neurotic" in the old days. It's because of our weak character and lack of willpower of course. You cannot will yourself out of menstrual cramps but ADD is just mind over matter, isn't it? Anyhow, sorry for the sarcasm, I'm just pissed off, I guess.
BTW: If I insulted anyone a few weeks ago, I apologize. I was just getting started with the Klonopin and was a bit too disinhibited I guess. Sorry if I have been a total bitch although I don't recall being that bad.
Posted by Andre Allard on September 1, 2001, at 6:30:30
In reply to Sorry about the stupid question, posted by Else on August 31, 2001, at 23:41:35
Damn, it seems as though you are having a really hard time. Don't belittle your own feelings just because some idiot doc, who does not have a care in the world, does. Why don't you tell your doc to give you some respect and to start helping you. Or better yet, get a new one. You say it takes to long - nonsense. Walk in an emergency room and tell them that you want to blow your head off. When you actually have the opportunity to speak to a pdoc tell them that the suicidle guesture has passed, how awful your life is (even if it is not that bad) and before you know it you will have an appt. with a new pdoc. I have done it a few times. I wanted help then so I went and got it. It sure beets waiting months and months for the referal requested by your gp.
You cannot give up after only trying a few meds. What is your drug regimen anyways?
Once you do get under the care of a good pdoc you will be surprised at how much they can help. The problem is finding one. I do not have one right now either if it makes you feel any better. I make the changes necessary to my drug cocktail when I feel needed and my gp writes out the prescription. I understand that your case is a little more complicated since you do not have a clear diagnoses as of yet. I have been only recently diagnosed. Before that, I helped myself with regards to reading anything and everything until I was educated enough to come to my own conclusions and to make my own drug cocktail. Like I have mentioned in other posts, the one who is going to pull you out of this mess is not the pdoc, your family or your friends. It is going to be you and no one else. That is my advice. If the pdocs want to be ignorant then do it yourself.
Good luck!
Posted by SalArmy4me on September 1, 2001, at 6:32:57
In reply to Sorry about the stupid question, posted by Else on August 31, 2001, at 23:41:35
There are no stupid questions. Your questions are always worthy...ask away.
You do contribute a lot to this group, whether you're having a bad day on Klonopin or not...
Posted by sar on September 1, 2001, at 9:41:38
In reply to Sorry about the stupid question, posted by Else on August 31, 2001, at 23:41:35
dear else,
no stupid question.
a few months ago i really felt like dying so i went to a crisis center, where they said they could treat me only if i were actively suicidal. i told them that i was having recurrent thoughts of hanging myself or buying a gun, but that i was not planning on it that very day or anytime soon, and they gave me the 'script i wanted. they would not treat my other symptoms (social phobia, for one) because "depression" was the only mental illness dire enough, in their book, to deserve immediate treatment (which i think is really ridiculous, because i think a vast number of mental disorders contribute heavily to depression).
i read the rules and learned how to play their game. i got treatment without being hauled off to the loony bin. (i've been hauled off before, but that's another story.)
i'm 23 year-old suburbanite white girl, and doctors are fond of labelling me "borderline" or "histrionic." an ex-friend of mine called my depression "white middle-class malaise." f*ck that sh*t. depression is real. psychosis is real too, and probably scarier to those who witness it, but--we're stuck with our mental health systems. i think they suck and i don't mind playing around with them. i'm a drug addict. if i don't get my meds i will die by my own hand. so i do what i can. at times i am a bit crafty.
yeah, maybe we are neurotic, whatever, but f*ck labels and doctors who don't know you as well as you know yourself. my best advice is to play by their rules (whether it means being honest or not) and have an idea of drugs you'd like to try before going in.
good luck to you, else.
sar
Posted by adamie on September 1, 2001, at 14:01:36
In reply to Sorry about the stupid question, posted by Else on August 31, 2001, at 23:41:35
hi. I too am tired of all the nonsense when it comes to doctors.my depression has been caused by accutane and I stopped right when I noticed changes in me. But it was too late. So now my brain has too much vitamin A or whatever else the accutane caused. I need to wait it out for it will go away like it has for most everyone with this specific substance induced depression. In the mean time I want help but of course the doctors can be quite ignorant and unwilling to even listen to what I have to say.
First my family physician wouldn't even consider the possibility of the accutane causing depression. And he even was skeptical I had anything wrong with me. Saying that it could all be phychological. Disgusting animal. This was the same doctor who passed out accutane like candy. I had no knowledge of the potential side effects which nearly took my life. He even urged me to go back on accutane saying it will clear up my acne. I was severely depressed and even suicidal, I am not going to care about by acne! such doctors make me so sick. I kept telling him how I was feeling so horrible but he had nothing to say.
Later on I went into talk therapy along with medication. Of course the talk therapy in this specific case wont heal my brain (i was always perfectly happy before) but I did it just so I would have someone to know what I was going through. Just a way to pass the time. Anyway she was a social worker. I only found this out later on. While talking with her she wouldn't even listen or consider what I had to say. Of course the accutane caused it! How can I go from perfectly happy, life completely perfect to being suicidal??? The only thing that happened during the time was me taking accutane. No doubt in my mind that the accutane caused it. It's common sense. And the drug is known to have caused thousands of suicides. Most unreported.
She was really rude and arrogant. I would talk to her and say as much as I could but all she would do is try to critisize me and try to find ways to tell me my case is phychological.
For instance. I have suffered from the accutane severe inability to concentrate compared to normal. I told her this. So then she would say "oh but you can concentrate when it comes to the internet". She deserved a slap in the face.
My life has been at stake. Of course I would try to learn as much as possible about depression and possible treatment options. Even if it was hard to read, hard to do anything, at least I could try to learn as much as I could. I would forget 99% of everything I read but at least I was passing the time and helping rhe chances of my recovery. I am so tired of such stupidity on her side. Just because I can go on the internet and read things, remember some things, doesn't mean my concentration is okay. She would critisize many other things. It's just hard to remember all the specific cases of arrogance she has shown.
Then later on she would bring my mother in to talk to both of us. My mother would say how me talking only about depression (how horrible I felt) was making her tired. She didn't want to hear so much about this. So of course the social worker critisizes me and says that my mom is a single mother. Things aren't too good for her and I should consider her feelings. This monster still didn't believe I had much of a problem (social worker).
I said my problems are far more severe than anything my mom could be going through. And that is a fact. Social worker said NO, I don't know that she says. Alison was her name. This disgusting social worker. Anyway of course my mom's problems aren't nearly as big as mine. My mom has no depression, my mom is capable of enjoying anything she wants to, meanwhile I WAS feeling suicidal. I have had no control over my mood. I cant Control the mind torture. But of course the social worker doesn't take me seriously. she makes me so sick. I told her I had the worst decease possible. she told me I was just over reacting.
I would trade my whole body filled with acne, both my legs and my left arm just so I would be back to my normal self. How dare she treat me in such a way. It's much better now. I am suicidal and I am minorly able to enjoy things but it's still a long way to go for me. In my old state I surely wouldn't mind at all trading all those things just to be cured. My life has always been perfect. My fiance is more perfect than I could ever imagine. To feel everything again would be amazing.
Anyway the social worker was a disgusting excuse for a human being. So later on I was switched to seeing the phychiatrist at the hospital. I guess they felt my case wasn't Severe enough to warrant seeing the pdoc. disgusting.
anyway she was far more helpful than that Alison person. But she too didn't take me seriously enough. And even once mentioned that a thing I said wouldn't be something a depressed person would say. how dare she. She also didn't want to listen to treatment options I suggested. Instead she wanted to put me on effexor. and so willing to go with anything, i did. it made my depression much worse. near constant mind torture and as a cause of it I was losing a lot of weight. Normally I am quite thin so that was a very serious additional problem. But the drug was just making me feel too horrible emotionally. No side effects except weight loss but so what. It's not supossed to make me feel like dying. So I went off it. then 3 days later I was feeling better. No doubt in my mind that the effexor was making me worse! But of course the doctors wouldn't listen. I was seeing another pdoc at this time. The bastard has the nerve to tell me that accutane should not have any lasting effects at all. Perhaps I should have printed out some research and shoved it in his face. He was beyong arrogant and he too was skeptical of me. He said it was impossible that effexor and previously paxil were making my condition worse. And said that if I was so severely depressed I would stick with the side effects in order to get better. I tried to tell him I had no bothersome side effects except that it was making me WORSE (aside from too much weight loss)! but he wouldn't listen. After a few weeks he still wouldn't accept the absolute fact that accutane caused something in me. And he just said that i was just naturally more depressed while on meds and that the meds were not causing it. I know how the hell I felt. I am sick of the nonsense. He takes me for some kind of idiot. Just like the other moron Alison. They should make me take a dam*** IQ test. Even with my worse concentration I'd be able to pull off something far above average. What these fools should realize is that not all cases of depression are the same. Mine is 100% caused by accutane so the same rules of most forms of depression may not apply. But they wouldn't even except that as the cause.
I am off meds now. 3 anti depressants all made my case worse. except for maybe paxil. it's hard to tell what that did. While on it I was feeling slightly better but when I stopped the meds after 24 days, 4 days later it was like a miracle. depression was really going away. I felt so sure I would fully recover. I was feeling so good so how could I not. then it went down again. So I dunno what the paxil did. while i felt slightly better on it than previously perhaps it prevented me from feeling better. That's how it looks since stopping made me feel quite good. near normal actually. I was doing everything so naturally as I was before the depression when I was perfectly happy. I was so motivated, so able to enjoy everything. But also perhaps the restoration of neorotransmitters 20% or whatever it is could have been the cause. Which remained after stopping the paxil only to dissapear afterwards. Since according to recent studies ssri use restores neorotransmitters aside from the reuptake effect. which is what could have making me worse. the reuptake. well it's all a big mystery but at least I'll survive. I am doing not nearly as bad as before and I feel confident that in time I will recovery. life was perfect before and I will feel everything once again. I just need to wait it out. In the mean time those doctors deserve a slap in the face. thanks for reading my little story
Posted by Andre Allard on September 2, 2001, at 2:26:52
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question, posted by adamie on September 1, 2001, at 14:01:36
To say that accutane is the sole culprit in triggerinig your depression would make you a very rare case. It is understandable that the docs you have seen by are ignorant to your idea.
I have been on accutane twice while I was a teenager and I do remember something written on the package insert about depression occurance in 0.02% or something in that range.
Not that your depression is not 100% caused by accutane but you have to keep in mind how many other factors play a role in the onset of depression. For example, onset of depression is usually late teens or early twenties (early adulthood) and sometimes depression can happen for no reason whatsoever (I am assuming that you are rather young considering your use of accutane). Does mental illnes run in your family? Do you have successful relationships at the moment? Are you doing well in school or at work? Are you happy with the way you look? Are you financially secure? All these stress factors significantly impact my life and they are areas that you must take into consideration when coming to your conclusions.
Like I said, I am not saying that your depression is not caused by accutane. I am just trying to get you to rule out other areas before coming to such a conclusion.
Good luck!
Posted by adamie on September 2, 2001, at 12:31:22
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question - adamie, posted by Andre Allard on September 2, 2001, at 2:26:52
> To say that accutane is the sole culprit in triggerinig your depression would make you a very rare case. It is understandable that the docs you have seen by are ignorant to your idea.
>
> I have been on accutane twice while I was a teenager and I do remember something written on the package insert about depression occurance in 0.02% or something in that range.
>
> Not that your depression is not 100% caused by accutane but you have to keep in mind how many other factors play a role in the onset of depression. For example, onset of depression is usually late teens or early twenties (early adulthood) and sometimes depression can happen for no reason whatsoever (I am assuming that you are rather young considering your use of accutane). Does mental illnes run in your family? Do you have successful relationships at the moment? Are you doing well in school or at work? Are you happy with the way you look? Are you financially secure? All these stress factors significantly impact my life and they are areas that you must take into consideration when coming to your conclusions.
>
> Like I said, I am not saying that your depression is not caused by accutane. I am just trying to get you to rule out other areas before coming to such a conclusion.
>
> Good luck!hi. I am confident in how I look. I have a perfect fiance, more perfect than I could ever imagine. My future has always been all set. No problems. Life has always been completely perfect. Then 4 weeks on the accutane I begin to feel a little strange. 5 weeks into it I realize it is having the so called rare side effect of depression.
4 weeks into it I would occasionally have very mild bad feelings. At first I thought it was just because what I was reading. Since I was reading about the evils of scientology. But nope. I would normally have never made to feel bad in the uncontrollable way that it did. I would always have full control over my emotions and was always perfectly happy. If I heard something bad I wouldn't mind because I would always be grateful for everything I had. I have never had any reason to not feel perfectly happy. Also my family has never had any cases of depression that I know of.
Other things that happened while on accutane..
I was starting to lose motivation. I wasn't excersizing anymore. Just too tiring it felt. Then I would accidentally call my sister by the name of my fiance. This may not seem like a big deal and it certainly didn't appear at the time but I would always have enough concentration for such a thing never to happen. This happened repeatedly. While before this would happen never. Then I would become extra bored watching a bad movie and I would actually feel bad a little. It was strange. No matter how bad or boring a movie may be I am not supossed to be so bored. I would always have enough imagination. And I am certainly not supossed to feel bad due to boredom. It was all very subtle though. I didn't realize before it was too late that the accutane was causing something. Taking one 40mg dose of accutane is like taking 40 times the daily recommended dose of vitamin A. it is extremely unsafe. High amounts of vitamin A have been proven to cause mental disorders. Out of all the retinoids accutane is the only one which has caused suicide. Thousands of cases. Most unreported.
Before stopping the accutane it was becoming very evident something was becoming seriously wrong. All of a sudden I was having feelings of "gee what am I going to talk to dana about today?". This was a huge change from the usual complete excitement I would show towards talking with my perfect fiance over the internet. We would always talk several hours each day every day and I would never have such a concern ever. Talking with her was always natural and everything was always perfect. This day was becoming very different. It was becoming hard for me to talk about all the usual important things. And it was becoming harder for me to even imagine being with her. My very mild hard to notice depression due to accutane was becoming much more noticable! Something was seriously wrong. Could these be normal feelings I was having? Such thoughts I would have. Then I would realize it was without a doubt the accutane. How could I go from always being 100% perfectly euphoric to having the feelings I was having now? I would go shower and for some reason it was becoming hard to shower. More tired. I would have automatic uncontrollable negative thoughts. The next day after reading things on the internet of people who have had long lasting severe and even suicidal depression due to accutane had me convinced I had to get off this disgusting medication. I would later find out that from 17 adverse reactions depression was number 8. It was more common than one would think from this horrible drug. Also I know remember that I had school at that time. It was becoming occasionally extremely difficult to keep myself motivated towards my work. I always had enough motivation. My life was perfect, how could I not do my homework? But I was becoming unable to feel how perfect everything was. Uncontrollable depression. I stopped the medication after reading enough horror stories. The next day I did something silly. Since I had school I wanted to take my energy drink. Since I was off the accutane I felt it would be okay. Big mistake. It turned what I thought at the time was mostly a mild depression into something extremely severe. It added to the accutane effect since accutane is a man made vitamin A. at 40 times the daily recommended dose. My energy drink had 40% vitamin A. And this really made things much much worse. I was becoming unreactive to everything. Severe mind torture was setting in. Every minute was becoming hell. I was at school and I just wasn't up to doing anything except sitting in my desk trying to fight off the mind torture. My computer teacher would ask me to go to my work and I said I wasn't feeling good. This happened for all my classes. I couldn't believe how horrible I felt. I would also be shaking occasionally. And my vision was turning really dark yet white and very pale. I was feeling like I was a ghost. Already dead or something. I tried to think of the way I always felt before but it was impossible. I couldn't make myself feel better. I couldn't feel anything. I couldn't even remember anything about my perfect fiance. The very severe mind torture lasted for 2.5 days. That 3rd day I was driven to a walk in clinic where I was prescribed paxil. I didn't take it because for some reason I was feeling slightly better that evening. I thought surely the accutane effect will go away like it has for almost everyone. I waited for 1 month. It was improving from time to time. A few moments I was beginning to feel as if I was approaching normal again. but it would always go up and down. and then it was no longer improving. the severe mind torture was coming back. I had previously been on paxil for 2 days but I felt it was making me worse. So I stopped it. This time I went on and stayed on for 24 days. It seemed to make me a little better. But I would never have any up periods. Just very bleh all the time. except for when I was 1 week on it. Somehow I was beggining to feel significantly better. I had enough motivation to go to a theme park. I actually enjoyed things again to a certain extent. Then that went away. And back to feeling horrible again. this very bleh yet better than constant mind torture mood remained the whole time on the paxil. While there seemed to be less mind torture I felt as if I had no emotions. My fiance has always been the most important to me. So I decided to go off it to see how I would felt. 2 days off it I was feeling slightly better. 3 days off it even better. i had a minor ability to enjoy things. 4 days off it there was some kind of a miracle. I was starting to feel quite good! not normal but near somewhat. Because normal for me was naturally euphoric. I was naturally doing most of the old things I was before the depression. It was like I was living again. I was dling mp3's. Going to websites. Talking with my perfect fiance more. Able to see again how perfect she was. I was actually looking forward to things. This lasted for 7 days then it went suddenly significantly worse. Like right in the middle of talking with my fiance I uncontrollably suddenly was much worse. There was no reason for it. The next day slightly better. then slightly better again. then later it was going down. I was becoming desperate again and decided to try some other meds. Effexor I went on for 7 days. It brought back a lot of mind torture and actually made me suicidal. I went off it. a few days after I was feeling better. then I went on some other meds. And the story continues.
2.5 months after stopping the accutane I am doing significantly better overall. I am off meds and I am able to slightly enjoy things but still very little motivation for things. I will recover as has almost all even suicidally depressed accutane victims. it will just take several months or maybe a few years but I will be my normal self again. The accutane has been proven to stay in one's body for several months and even years, matching just how long it takes for the victims to recover from depression and other mental ilnesses caused by accutane. So I will get better. I just wish it was soon. I'll be trying Adrafinil very soon and am currently on 5-htp. I forgot about it. but i guess it's not really a med.
there is no doubt in my mind that accutane caused the depression. Aside from that it caused various other things. Yellow skin which by now has mostly gone away. Decreased night vision and just in general it seems everything is more pale and dark. My hair is changed. It went from being slightly curly and naturally going over the sides of my head to standing up always. even if I comb it, it remains up. Also my face just looks different. of course none of these matter to me. I just need the depression to go away. But with all these lasting side effects it makes me wonder just how much damage the accutane has caused. But the dperession has to go away. So I just need to wait it out. And regarding the depression occurance in .02% of all people taking accutane. That is extremely off. I would say maybe 4% or even 7% but in most cases it is quite mild so the number can be much higher since some people may not notice very mild depression or simply would think something is wrong with them rather than to put the blame where it belongs. the accutane. none of the retinoids have caused suicide except accutane which has had thousands. Dianette35 actually had had 2 attempted suicides. and all the other retinoids have had none. That is proof in itself that accutane is generally the most dangerous acne treatment avialable and no doubt can cause depression in many people.
Posted by Else on September 4, 2001, at 19:43:16
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question, posted by Andre Allard on September 1, 2001, at 6:30:30
> Damn, it seems as though you are having a really hard time. Don't belittle your own not have a care in the world, does. Why don't you tell your doc to give you some respect and to start helping you. Or better yet, get a new feelings just because some idiot doc, who does one. You say it takes to long - nonsense. Walk in an emergency room and tell them that you want to blow your head off. When you actually have the opportunity to speak to a pdoc tell them that the suicidle guesture has passed, how awful your life is (even if it is not that bad) and before you know it you will have an appt. with a new pdoc. I have done it a few times. I wanted help then so I went and got it. It sure beets waiting months and months for the referal requested by your gp.
Well, I don't know. I don't feel that histrionic right now. I do feel up for a confrontation and when I am pissed enough, he does tend to listen so we'll see what happens next time I see him. If he still shruggs me off I will probably take my business elsewhere, although I don't know where that would be exactly.
>
> You cannot give up after only trying a few meds. What is your drug regimen anyways?Right now, just Klonopin 2mg/daily. My doc wants me on Neurontin too but it just adds to the ataxia and doesn't do much for the anxiety so I dropped it (progressively). I used to be on Wellbutrin. I got nervous about it because it was making my neck twitch and it was not improving my "blah" sort of mood (I am not really clinically depressed at this point, just what doctors would call "demoralized"). But the Wellbutrin was really helping with my attention, I can see that now, in retrospect. I have never "officially" taken Klonopin and Wellbutrin together but the side-effects of the latter are considerably diminished by the former. I'm considering going back on the Wellbutrin (on a lower dose, my doc always has me on these massive doses).
> Once you do get under the care of a good pdoc you will be surprised at how much they can help. The problem is finding one. I do not have one right now either if it makes you feel any better. I make the changes necessary to my drug cocktail when I feel needed and my gp writes out the prescription. I understand that your case is a little more complicated since you do not have a clear diagnoses as of yet. I have been only recently diagnosed. Before that, I helped myself with regards to reading anything and everything until I was educated enough to come to my own conclusions and to make my own drug cocktail. Like I have mentioned in other posts, the one who is going to pull you out of this mess is not the pdoc, your family or your friends. It is going to be you and no one else. That is my advice. If the pdocs want to be ignorant then do it yourself.
I have been rather manipulative with him of late. I don't WANT to be but he makes it hard for me not to be. But I get sick of lying and trying to present with exactly the right symptoms in order to get what I believe will help. Yet, my intuition has been good so far. But really, I wish it wasn't so complicated> Good luck!
You too and thanks for the input!
Posted by Else on September 4, 2001, at 19:44:37
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question » Else, posted by SalArmy4me on September 1, 2001, at 6:32:57
> There are no stupid questions. Your questions are always worthy...ask away.
>
> You do contribute a lot to this group, whether you're having a bad day on Klonopin or not...Thanks Sal.
Posted by Else on September 4, 2001, at 19:52:36
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question » Else, posted by sar on September 1, 2001, at 9:41:38
> dear else,
>
> no stupid question.
>
> a few months ago i really felt like dying so i went to a crisis center, where they said they could treat me only if i were actively suicidal. i told them that i was having recurrent thoughts of hanging myself or buying a gun, but that i was not planning on it that very day or anytime soon, and they gave me the 'script i wanted. they would not treat my other symptoms (social phobia, for one) because "depression" was the only mental illness dire enough, in their book, to deserve immediate treatment (which i think is really ridiculous, because i think a vast number of mental disorders contribute heavily to depression).
>
> i read the rules and learned how to play their game. i got treatment without being hauled off to the loony bin. (i've been hauled off before, but that's another story.)
>
> i'm 23 year-old suburbanite white girl, and doctors are fond of labelling me "borderline" or "histrionic." an ex-friend of mine called my depression "white middle-class malaise." f*ck that sh*t. depression is real. psychosis is real too, and probably scarier to those who witness it, but--we're stuck with our mental health systems. i think they suck and i don't mind playing around with them. i'm a drug addict. if i don't get my meds i will die by my own hand. so i do what i can. at times i am a bit crafty.
>
> yeah, maybe we are neurotic, whatever, but f*ck labels and doctors who don't know you as well as you know yourself. my best advice is to play by their rules (whether it means being honest or not) and have an idea of drugs you'd like to try before going in.
>
> good luck to you, else.
>
> sarHi sar,
Yeah I have had BPD pinned on me several times and I guess I am a tiny bit histrionic which doesn't help when I want to get taken seriously. I play the game too but I get so sick of it. I know what I'm supposed to say. (ADD is a bit different though, nothing you could say will get you a script for stimulants in Canada if you are over 25 as far as I know. There may be a lucky few I am unaware off.) I just wish I could go there and say EXACTLY what on my mind at times rather then carefully crafting every phrase that comes out of my mind in order no to freak the poor physician out or make him/her think I'm just a cry-baby.Thanks for the reply
Best wishes
Posted by Else on September 4, 2001, at 20:23:26
In reply to Re: Sorry about the stupid question, posted by adamie on September 1, 2001, at 14:01:36
>
> hi. I too am tired of all the nonsense when it comes to doctors.
>
> my depression has been caused by accutane and I stopped right when I noticed changes in me. But it was too late. So now my brain has too much vitamin A or whatever else the accutane caused. I need to wait it out for it will go away like it has for most everyone with this specific substance induced depression. In the mean time I want help but of course the doctors can be quite ignorant and unwilling to even listen to what I have to say.
>
> First my family physician wouldn't even consider the possibility of the accutane causing depression. And he even was skeptical I had anything wrong with me. Saying that it could all be phychological. Disgusting animal. This was the same doctor who passed out accutane like candy. I had no knowledge of the potential side effects which nearly took my life. He even urged me to go back on accutane saying it will clear up my acne. I was severely depressed and even suicidal, I am not going to care about by acne! such doctors make me so sick. I kept telling him how I was feeling so horrible but he had nothing to say.GPs can be a bit off as far as mealth health care goes, as I have found out. Last month I saw one for an ear infection. She asked me if I was taking any medication and (stupidly, but honnestly) I replied "Yes, I take Neurontin and Klonopin". She asked: "Why are you epileptic?" I said no, I take these for anxiety. Well she freaked out, kept looking at her CPS (Canadian PDR) going: "It says these drugs are for epilepsy, you have to stop", even though I told her my psychiatrist had prescribed them and was presumably knowledgeable about anxiety meds.
> Later on I went into talk therapy along with medication. Of course the talk therapy in this specific case wont heal my brain (i was always perfectly happy before) but I did it just so I would have someone to know what I was going through. Just a way to pass the time. Anyway she was a social worker. I only found this out later on. While talking with her she wouldn't even listen or consider what I had to say. Of course the accutane caused it! How can I go from perfectly happy, life completely perfect to being suicidal??? The only thing that happened during the time was me taking accutane. No doubt in my mind that the accutane caused it. It's common sense. And the drug is known to have caused thousands of suicides. Most unreported.
>
> She was really rude and arrogant. I would talk to her and say as much as I could but all she would do is try to critisize me and try to find ways to tell me my case is phychological.Talk therapy could still have helped you even if your depression has purely physical causes. It should have been a more supportive form of therapy though. Obviously it wasn't. A lot of psychologists and social workers want to believe mental illness is psychological because otherwise they would be out of a job. Not all of them are biased though and I'm sure plenty of them are capable of providing excellent supportive therapy.
> For instance. I have suffered from the accutane severe inability to concentrate compared to normal. I told her this. So then she would say "oh but you can concentrate when it comes to the internet". She deserved a slap in the face.
Very innapropriate and obnoxious indeed.
> My life has been at stake. Of course I would try to learn as much as possible about depression and possible treatment options. Even if it was hard to read, hard to do anything, at least I could try to learn as much as I could. I would forget 99% of everything I read but at least I was passing the time and helping rhe chances of my recovery. I am so tired of such stupidity on her side. Just because I can go on the internet and read things, remember some things, doesn't mean my concentration is okay. She would critisize many other things. It's just hard to remember all the specific cases of arrogance she has shown.
>
> Then later on she would bring my mother in to talk to both of us. My mother would say how me talking only about depression (how horrible I felt) was making her tired. She didn't want to hear so much about this. So of course the social worker critisizes me and says that my mom is a single mother. Things aren't too good for her and I should consider her feelings. This monster still didn't believe I had much of a problem (social worker).
>
> I said my problems are far more severe than anything my mom could be going through. And that is a fact. Social worker said NO, I don't know that she says. Alison was her name. This disgusting social worker. Anyway of course my mom's problems aren't nearly as big as mine. My mom has no depression, my mom is capable of enjoying anything she wants to, meanwhile I WAS feeling suicidal. I have had no control over my mood. I cant Control the mind torture. But of course the social worker doesn't take me seriously. she makes me so sick. I told her I had the worst decease possible. she told me I was just over reacting.
>
> I would trade my whole body filled with acne, both my legs and my left arm just so I would be back to my normal self. How dare she treat me in such a way. It's much better now. I am suicidal and I am minorly able to enjoy things but it's still a long way to go for me. In my old state I surely wouldn't mind at all trading all those things just to be cured. My life has always been perfect. My fiance is more perfect than I could ever imagine. To feel everything again would be amazing.
>
> Anyway the social worker was a disgusting excuse for a human being. So later on I was switched to seeing the phychiatrist at the hospital. I guess they felt my case wasn't Severe enough to warrant seeing the pdoc. disgusting.
>
> anyway she was far more helpful than that Alison person. But she too didn't take me seriously enough. And even once mentioned that a thing I said wouldn't be something a depressed person would say. how dare she. She also didn't want to listen to treatment options I suggested. Instead she wanted to put me on effexor. and so willing to go with anything, i did. it made my depression much worse. near constant mind torture and as a cause of it I was losing a lot of weight. Normally I am quite thin so that was a very serious additional problem. But the drug was just making me feel too horrible emotionally. No side effects except weight loss but so what. It's not supossed to make me feel like dying. So I went off it. then 3 days later I was feeling better. No doubt in my mind that the effexor was making me worse! But of course the doctors wouldn't listen. I was seeing another pdoc at this time. The bastard has the nerve to tell me that accutane should not have any lasting effects at all. Perhaps I should have printed out some research and shoved it in his face. He was beyong arrogant and he too was skeptical of me. He said it was impossible that effexor and previously paxil were making my condition worse. And said that if I was so severely depressed I would stick with the side effects in order to get better. I tried to tell him I had no bothersome side effects except that it was making me WORSE (aside from too much weight loss)! but he wouldn't listen. After a few weeks he still wouldn't accept the absolute fact that accutane caused something in me. And he just said that i was just naturally more depressed while on meds and that the meds were not causing it. I know how the hell I felt. I am sick of the nonsense. He takes me for some kind of idiot. Just like the other moron Alison. They should make me take a dam*** IQ test. Even with my worse concentration I'd be able to pull off something far above average. What these fools should realize is that not all cases of depression are the same. Mine is 100% caused by accutane so the same rules of most forms of depression may not apply. But they wouldn't even except that as the cause.
>
> I am off meds now. 3 anti depressants all made my case worse. except for maybe paxil. it's hard to tell what that did. While on it I was feeling slightly better but when I stopped the meds after 24 days, 4 days later it was like a miracle. depression was really going away. I felt so sure I would fully recover. I was feeling so good so how could I not. then it went down again. So I dunno what the paxil did. while i felt slightly better on it than previously perhaps it prevented me from feeling better. That's how it looks since stopping made me feel quite good. near normal actually. I was doing everything so naturally as I was before the depression when I was perfectly happy. I was so motivated, so able to enjoy everything. But also perhaps the restoration of neorotransmitters 20% or whatever it is could have been the cause. Which remained after stopping the paxil only to dissapear afterwards. Since according to recent studies ssri use restores neorotransmitters aside from the reuptake effect. which is what could have making me worse. the reuptake. well it's all a big mystery but at least I'll survive. I am doing not nearly as bad as before and I feel confident that in time I will recovery. life was perfect before and I will feel everything once again. I just need to wait it out. In the mean time those doctors deserve a slap in the face. thanks for reading my little storyThat may not be much consolation but Effexor made me million times worse too. All SSRIs do. Wellbutrin and Parnate were the only ADs that have done anything for me in some way (either improving my mood or concentration). I haven't read about Accutane induced depression but I know it is listed as one posible serious side-effect. Vitamin A is fat soluble and most of the nervous system is fat but you probably know that already. That's why drugs that are fat soluble produce such long lasting withdrawal symptoms, they stay in your body fat (including your brain). Maybe it would help you to see yourself as though you are in withdrawal, which you are in a way. Accutane is a drug with such potentially severe side-effects (teratogenic for-instance), I'm surprised it's not left in the hands of people who are well informed about it like dermatologists.
I feel for you. I don't know what else to say but "Hang in there". Pretty lame, I suppose, but the drug will leave your body eventually, that's something you can coun't on.
But I do think a competent and well-informed counsillor might be able to help you deal with the strain of this depression. Finding one, however, is another matter. Believe me, I know.
Best wishe.
This is the end of the thread.
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