![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 16:48:26
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 13:04:18
Thanks for the great feedback. I've been attempting to articulate my thoughts about the use and misuse of the concept of self-esteem for a long time. Kelly's post really helped me, because she obviously has a very healthy and productive understanding of the terms.
CarolAnn, I think you're on the right track in thinking about your self-worth, especially given that devastating early phrase from your mother. I'm sure she would have given anything in the world to take it back if she knew what its effect on you was going to be. I'm not a parent, but I choke up even thinking that I've undoubtedly said things just as cruel to others, especially when I'm feeling like I'm the only person in the world who hurts.
Also, CarolAnn, as I read your response, and KarenB's and bob's, I realized also what I'm trying to say is that our feelings are basically not trustworthy -- especially so for those of us with mood disorders. So if we can use logic and reason (that's the "accurate" part of "accurate self-knowledge") to combat our feelings of worthlessness and despair, so much the better. If we've trained ourselves *not* to think, "I feel bad today, so I must be a bad person -- who'd want me? -- why would anyone value my opinion? -- who do I think I am?" etc., but instead to think, "I may feel bad (or giddily good, for that matter), but I'm a regular person with some good traits I want to encourage and increase, and some poor traits I'd like to change and improve" then I think we learn to cope with our ups and downs in a more realistic way and make daily decisions that are more in accord with our best values, those we choose when we're well and calm and have the ability to consider and care about other people's needs and suffering as well as our own.
KarenB made a great point of clarification for me -- she's right that the concept I was groping for is "shame." I can think of no positive value for shame when used as KarenB defines it, as opposed to what might be called "appropriate guilt" or regret for nonvirtuous speech and behavior. I think KarenB is right on in describing shame (not guilt) as the mirror-image of pride.
CarolAnn, there are days that I literally have to say to myself, "Have I killed anyone? Have I injured anyone? Have I stolen anything? Have I run anyone down with my car? Have I been cruel to my family, friends, co-workers or strangers?" etc. as a reality-check to see if my *feelings* of horribleness have any basis in reality, which they don't. Not that I haven't done bad things, especially when I was young, but that my *feelings* of worthlessness are not based in reality at all. That helps me to let go of the self-hatred sooner and to have more compassion for myself, without indulging in pity or puffery.
What would be useful in schools, I think, is to teach values clarification. There are values that we all have to accept whether we agree with them or not -- our country's constitution, state and local laws, the values we share with those we want to live with -- even Dr. Bob's minimalist but useful dictate to "be civil" or be barred from posting here. Most of us drive on the right side of the road! (A note to my alter-ego: don't split hairs about obeying all laws -- I'm painting with a broad brush here.)
Beyond that, values can diverge but need to be thought of consciously, considered, weighed and applied, if children and then adults are to experience integrity (itself a chosen value). That doesn't mean we don't have differences; only that we're clear and consistent, and that we are able to express them in a way that doesn't take away other people's health, safety, or dignity.
I love this list and the opportunities its given me to share and learn with some truly thoughtful, kind, open and wonderful people.
Thank you all so much for being here and for offering encouragement and support.
Appreciatively,
Mark H.
P. S. to my buddy, bob: Your lovely haiku went right over my head. I'm afraid I failed the test!
Posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 16:48:26
haiku?! that was haiku? Gee, I'm a poet and ...nah. Too old a joke.
> ...I realized also what I'm trying to say is that our feelings are basically not trustworthy -- especially so for those of us with mood disorders. So if we can use logic and reason (that's the "accurate" part of "accurate self-knowledge") to combat our feelings of worthlessness and despair, so much the better....
Hmm ... I don't know if I can do that.
I mean, there are some psychologists that argue for cognitively-based emotions -- in other words, you need to experience something, process the information, and then you'll have some emotional response. The guilt/shame thing from attribution theory that I mentioned above is a good example. These sort of folks often talk about the CAB cycle -- cognition, affect, behavior ... we think, we feel, we respond overtly. That triggers a response from the environment, then CAB all over again.
That may work fine for more "complex" emotions, but there are some simple, primitive, "raw" emotions that get triggered without much thought at all. It doesn't even have to be some sort of conditioned response -- tho I'd put those in non-cognitive emotional responses -- it could be pure reaction. Like when you reach for the doorknob and someone opens it unexpectedly from the other side (got my girlfriend GOOD with that one tonight ... she jumped back four feet or so). Love at first sight. Nothing rational about these sorts of feelings, and I don't think there's any mantra you can recite to eliminate them from your life.
More to the point -- the most deeply seated esteem-busting feelings I have about myself have no basis that I can see in rationality, and they are impervious to contradictory, rational, fact-based arguments. For example:
Being "judged" wigs me out. I cannot help but believe I will be found wanting, no matter the issue. So, when facing any sort of task under the scrutiny of someone else, I cannot even start it. It kicks me into all sorts of OCD-like anxiety-managing/provoking behaviors. Now, I've been facing a deadline on a faculty minigrant at the college where I teach web design. (1) I have been told by the person running the grant program that I will most likely get the $3000 grant because she personally thinks my project is compelling and important. (2) My program director agrees 100% with this assessment. (3) The program is not highly competitive and multiple awards will be given out. (4) The skills needed to complete this project are easily within my capabilities. (5) I am an excellent academic writer, and (6) I'm about 10 for 10 on having grant proposals approved, with dollar amounts ranging from three to six figures. You would think there is absolutely no rational, fact-based argument that could be made to suggest I wouldn't get the grant if I could just sit down, write the 2-3 pages needed, and turn it in.
Whoever said I needed rationality to undermine my own efforts? Quite the opposite.
I missed the deadline (last Friday). The grant program director extended it for me (to next Monday). I did everything I could to avoid writing those stupid 2-3 pages until my girlfriend suggested I take 2mg of klonopin instead of my usual 1mg yesterday (Thursday). I did, and later that day I finished off the proposal in about 25 minutes.
Score: Medication 1, Rationality 0.
Maybe somewhere deep inside my psyche is some rational explanation for why I behave that way. Maybe the deeper such a kernal of self-hate is, the less of an effect any conscious thought will have on it. But I haven't peeled back enough layers of my mind to see that deep and dark ... yet.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Renee N on April 22, 2000, at 1:27:04
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
Bob,
Good for you for finally getting the proposal done. Good for your girlfriend for helping you to helpo yourself. (I'm assuming that it's okay with your doc to take the larger dose.)
I get terrible anxiety when I have to orally present something in front of a group for a grade. I'm fine talking in class, but if it's my work I'm presenting...shiver, shake, blackout...you get the picture.
I don't really have much to add about the self esteem issue, except that I've very much enjoyed the intelligent, thought provoking comments. You guys are awesome! I'm sure glad I don't have to present something in front of you. But then again, that's silly isn't it? Where else would I find a more compassionate, non-judgemental, and supportive group? Still, your knowledge and skill at sharing it can feel intimidating. Renee N
Posted by bob on April 22, 2000, at 2:15:24
In reply to To: bob, posted by Renee N on April 22, 2000, at 1:27:04
> (I'm assuming that it's okay with your doc to take the larger dose.)
Yep ... but when I get that anxious, the last thing I ever think about is how anxious I am -- I never think of taking a second tablet myself.
go figure,
bob
Posted by CarolAnn on April 22, 2000, at 8:31:24
In reply to anxiety blindspots, posted by bob on April 22, 2000, at 2:15:24
> Yep ... but when I get that anxious, the last thing I ever think about is how anxious I am -- I never think of taking a second tablet myself.
>
> go figure,
> bobbob, isn't it amazing the capacity we can have for being unable to see where we need help? I went thru too many looong trials of certain drugs before I took charge and got a new Pdoc.
Also, I can totally relate to your experience of having no "rational" reason to put off doing your project. I've had the same type of situation, mainly involving having no reason to be sad, or angry, embarassed, ect. I suppose that there may be answers locked deep within our brains, but until we have a full-proof way of unlocking them, we just have to deal with our mental health fallibilities the best we can. CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 13:56:25
In reply to Re: anxiety blindspots , posted by CarolAnn on April 22, 2000, at 8:31:24
Janice,
As I read all these wonderful posts, I think that my response to you is that what is so confusing about the concept of "self-esteem" for those of us with mood disorders is that our experiences of our self is at the mercy of our fluctuating biochemistry. This makes it hard to establish a steady, reliable sense of self that is "good enough". For me, medication helps to address this problem but therapy is also a key component of my treatment, because through therapy, I am trying to integrate the varying ways I experience myself and to bring them together somehow--the depressed me that has pathetically low self esteem, and the not-depressed me, that feels I am a worthy human being. For people who have hypomanic or manic episodes, the work of integration would involve also the more elated sense of self, as well, I suppose.
Posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 13:04:18
>maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck").
This is sort of tangential, but I saw the movie, Keeping the Faith, last night, and there is a nice scene in it in which Ben Stiller's character, the Rabbi, is working with a Bar Mitzvah boy who is having the hardest time mastering his Torah reading. His voice is changing and when he tries to sing the words, it is just excruciating. The kid says, "I suck." First, the Rabbi takes the smooth-over, superficially protect the self-esteem approach, and says, "you do not suck". The kid leans forward and with assertive conviction, repeats, "I suck". The Rabbi concedes, "OK, yes, you do suck", but goes on to explain how sucking can be embraced. I wish I can remember all of the elements of his speech at this point, but it was great. It was about how the kid could acknowledge he sucked at this, and accept that his voice change makes him sound awful, and take on the challenge of doing his responsibilities for this rite of passage despite these obstacles. It was funny and thoughtful at the same time. I am sure it sounds very trite in my retelling, but I think the scene was well done.
Posted by Cindy W on April 22, 2000, at 21:05:18
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 14:31:34
> >maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck").
>
> This is sort of tangential, but I saw the movie, Keeping the Faith, last night, and there is a nice scene in it in which Ben Stiller's character, the Rabbi, is working with a Bar Mitzvah boy who is having the hardest time mastering his Torah reading. His voice is changing and when he tries to sing the words, it is just excruciating. The kid says, "I suck." First, the Rabbi takes the smooth-over, superficially protect the self-esteem approach, and says, "you do not suck". The kid leans forward and with assertive conviction, repeats, "I suck". The Rabbi concedes, "OK, yes, you do suck", but goes on to explain how sucking can be embraced. I wish I can remember all of the elements of his speech at this point, but it was great. It was about how the kid could acknowledge he sucked at this, and accept that his voice change makes him sound awful, and take on the challenge of doing his responsibilities for this rite of passage despite these obstacles. It was funny and thoughtful at the same time. I am sure it sounds very trite in my retelling, but I think the scene was well done.Having read the posts above, I can really relate. For me, I think, what it takes for self-esteem is first through therapy realizing that if the therapist can accept me, with all my "sucky" qualities, I must be OK. Am in my second real therapy, I think (having forgotten from the first time that there is nothing wrong with the way I am or how I feel). Why do I keep forgetting that 'I suck' is OK?
Posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Cindy W on April 22, 2000, at 21:05:18
I don't know why I'm still confused. Maybe because mental illnesses get in the way of any psycholocial definations. Maybe once I am stable for a year or so, I will be able to understand this concept.
After reading all your posts, I can only define it (for myself right now), as a feeling that 'I know I have a right to exist.'
Janice
Posted by bob on April 23, 2000, at 0:46:23
In reply to I am still confused…you've written great answers, posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
> I don't know why I'm still confused.
Janice, the psychologists who study this thing called "self-esteem" can't even agree on what it is, so being confused is probably quite appropriate.
Now, that MAY be because it really is an ill-defined, poorly understood concept; OR, it could be because they need to publish (or perish!), so they all come up with their own definitions of what "self-esteem" is, hoping that others will use THEIR definition and not someone else's, thereby boosting their own self-esteem as well as their esteem in the eyes of their colleagues.
I hope that makes sense.
bob
Posted by Janice on April 23, 2000, at 11:19:30
In reply to Re: I am still confused…join the club, posted by bob on April 23, 2000, at 0:46:23
> > I don't know why I'm still confused.
>
> Janice, the psychologists who study this thing called "self-esteem" can't even agree on what it is, so being confused is probably quite appropriate.
>
> Now, that MAY be because it really is an ill-defined, poorly understood concept; OR, it could be because they need to publish (or perish!), so they all come up with their own definitions of what "self-esteem" is, hoping that others will use THEIR definition and not someone else's, thereby boosting their own self-esteem as well as their esteem in the eyes of their colleagues.
>
> I hope that makes sense.
> bob
Posted by CarolAnn on April 24, 2000, at 8:48:50
In reply to I am still confused…you've written great answers, posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
>>>>
> After reading all your posts, I can only define it (for myself right now), as a feeling that 'I know I have a right to exist.'
>
> Janice
>>>>
BINGO! Janice! And not *just* "I know I have a right to exist."
But also, "I have a right to *my* feelings. My feelings are *valid*, and I have the right to feel them!" and "I have a right to set up bounderies to protect myself from other's feelings and judgements!". "Because I have the right to my feelings, I have the right to explore and try to understand them, and to find the best way to express them." "YES, I have the right to express my feelings, though I will try to do it constructively and not out of a need to 'hit back' or 'lash out' at people, who may not even realize they have wronged me."
The above knowledge is some of the result of my two years of therapy. I hope you find it applicable! Best wishes! CarolAnn
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
I'm sorry if this submission is out of place. I don't have the mental energy to read any of the long posts. I did have some feelings on the subject, though.
I think that one's self-esteem is the result of his comparing himself to everyone else around him. What answers are arrived at to the questions "how do I compare" and "where do I fit" are dependent upon everything they have previously experienced and the messages they were given by the people around them. How one reacts to these events is influenced by a biological template that includes temperament, cognition, and mood. How one feels about themself is the result of what answers they come up with. This is self-esteem.
One can think of himself as being the most important and gifted person in the world and still feel like the most inferior.
This is how things seem to work for me, anyway. It doesn't seem to be so complicated.
Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 11:56:38
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
Scott - I feel the same way as you. I do not think that any of us really 'fit in'. We all have a picture of the outside world in our head, but, like science, it is only an approximation of what really "is". Things like truth, beauty, and intelligence are so subjective, as well as transient.We are limited as to what we can understand by our 5 senses, but our approximations (ie science) does give us a good idea of what is and what can be.
I do believe in fate (sort of). I think that every action or thought that we have is a result of our past experiences (starting at conception). Therefore anything we do, say or think is restricted by these experiences. I think our self esteem also arises from these experiences.
I really think that self-actualization is unobtainable and that we really could not (or want to) live at such a level.
I believe that you have to live by a motto; your own or probably someone else's. You try to stick to this motto as best you can and not beat yourself up when you do deviate from it (something that I still have to learn).
My motto comes from a line in a song called 'Uncle John's Band" by the Grateful Dead:
...all, I want to know is, "Are you kind?"
Where "kind" has 2 meanings: Are you nice and helpful to other people and are you like everyone else. The first has to be worked on and the second just is.
I am sorry to hear that you are hurting right now and wish I could help in some way, but remember that there are always better days ahead. Down times never really last forever. This is easy to say, but hard to realize sometimes.
I, and I am sure many others on this board, have benefited greatly from your knowledge and advise. You have taught me almost more in the last few months than I have learned in the last 16 years of practice.
Thinking of you (sorry to ramble) - Cam
Posted by JohnB on April 25, 2000, at 2:44:15
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
Nice definition Scott . . . . .
I've also found that "self esteem" isn't much of an issue when the meds are really working.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 25, 2000, at 23:18:12
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? - To Scott, posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 11:56:38
> I really think that self-actualization is unobtainable and that we really could not (or want to) live at such a level.
I guess Maslow was just teasing us with a carrot on a stick.
- Scott
Posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
In reply to Re: Now that you brought it up…what is Self Esteem? , posted by kellyR. on April 20, 2000, at 22:13:07
I read some peoples opinions about self esteem. I am confident. I am a communications major in college and I do very well in front of audiences. I hold my head up when I walk. But, why is it that some days I love myself so much that I want to climb the tallest tree and then other days I want to bury myself. According to the seratonin/self esteem theory, being confident and such means I have enough balance of seratonin, but what about the days I want to die? Does it just go away for a bit? It makes it difficult for me to help myself when I do not understand myself. All of my friends have no clue that I have problems. I seemed to be fooling everyone. Even my therapist, it seems. I cant seem to tell anyone that can help me that I feel this way. It is such a roller coaster. I am trying Zoloft right now to slow the coaster down. Am I just sheltering myself those times I feel happy? Am I even fooling myself? Who else does these things?
Posted by Noa on April 27, 2000, at 17:04:56
In reply to Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
For those of us with mood disorders, your description of the ups and downs in SE really fit. Our experiences of ourselves do seem to be mood dependent. Getting a hold of the cycling is a good idea. Be cautious about the antidepressants--titrate up on your doses slowly, and monitor your moods. If you feel yourself going too far in the up direction, tell your doc immediately. Good luck. And BTW, be as open and hones with your therapist as you can about how your really feel. Keep us posted.
Posted by Mark H. on April 27, 2000, at 20:33:04
In reply to Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
Dear Jennifer,
Your story is a good example of why I earlier suggested replacing the concept of self-esteem with some other way of thinking about ourselves that reflects the fact that how we *feel* is often irrelevant and does not accurately represent our achievements, worthiness, lovability, compassion, intelligence, benefit to others, or any other value we may hold -- not to mention that we are constantly changing. This seems to be especially true for those of us with mood disorders.
If we decide to believe the "resume" version of ourselves, it may work in the same way that putting on a play "works," but we risk feeling phony and fearing being found out. Have any of your friends ever said after you did something especially well, "Oh my God, of course you got an 'A' in Applied Conflict Management, but you're Jennifer!" as though a different set of expectations apply to you than to "ordinary" people. That's not about high seratonin levels.
The "seratonin effect" of the alpha-female involves people who are consistently and naturally sure of themselves, who have a thoroughly integrated belief in their utter right to belong. It doesn't mean they don't experience self-doubt and bad-hair days, just that it would never occur to them they might *not* be chosen for the team, and if they weren't, then something is probably wrong with the team, anyway. They don't expect to get "A's" all the time, and if there are subjects they can't master, those subjects are just "outside their area of expertise." They don't expect to master everything; they just expect to pass and be liked, a lot, by everybody. And they are. Even those of us who see through it like to stand next to them at parties, just to feel what it's like, just to listen to someone talk about themselves without the slightest waver to their voice, a total absence of doubt that anything they say, however ordinary, will be received as anything but fascinating.
What you're describing is more familiar to people on this list. It involves periods of stellar performance that come so easily that the person experiencing it wonders why people think it's special -- maybe others just aren't applying themselves -- followed by periods when we wonder whether we're even qualified to be there at all, since our professors are now talking near-gibberish and reading becomes laborious as comprehension and concentration slip from our grasp.
When I had a difficult instructor who was determined to give me a "B" if he could, I simply memorized his textbook, so that on exams I could visualize the page and cite the paragraph which addressed the question, quoting accurately from memory. Later, I would skate through class after class in a self-absorbed fog without a clue as to where we were, and then "pull a rabbit out of the hat" at the end of the quarter through an act of sheer will, often getting a grade based on a few moments of lucidity and desperate creativity but very, very little work or study. I'm not proud of it -- it's just the only way I knew to survive.
If I had it all to do over again, I would declare my disability early on, insist on help and accommodation, and get a real education rather than simply completing an exercise in survival and political manipulation of academic bureaucracy. I would keep two "resumes," one to remind myself of my achievements and abilities, the other to remind myself of my demons and limitations. I would actively choose to be non-ambitious, instead applying my values to everything I did, including discussing my limitations with professors and department heads, working out systems of support and assistance for the "learning disability" aspects of my mood disorder, and holding myself and the school to the letter and spirit of the Americans with Disabilities Act to ensure that the university and I could both be confident of what I had accomplished by the time I graduated.
Accurate self-knowledge means being aware of your strengths and weaknesses, not using the one to leverage yourself into a stressful position of major responsibility you can't sustain, nor using the other to keep yourself in a menial job for fear that your mood disorder might interfere with more meaningful work. It helps to find a middle ground in which income and title are balanced against things like good health the need to limit stress. Self esteem, in itself, offers nothing to help clarify these values or offer guidance in making important life decisions that will affect your health, happiness and productivity. Accurate self knowledge does.
Very best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Cindy W on April 27, 2000, at 21:02:56
In reply to Re: Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Noa on April 27, 2000, at 17:04:56
> For those of us with mood disorders, your description of the ups and downs in SE really fit. Our experiences of ourselves do seem to be mood dependent. Getting a hold of the cycling is a good idea. Be cautious about the antidepressants--titrate up on your doses slowly, and monitor your moods. If you feel yourself going too far in the up direction, tell your doc immediately. Good luck. And BTW, be as open and hones with your therapist as you can about how your really feel. Keep us posted.
Noa, my self-esteem varies with my depression and the waxing and waning of OCD. At times, even though I want to be really honest with my pdoc, I'm afraid even he'll reject me, because I feel so worthless.
Posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 22:40:37
In reply to Re: Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Cindy W on April 27, 2000, at 21:02:56
I almost want to accuse you of sitting next to me in my Physiology class. It feels like you are watching me when I am rubbing my temples and pacing my breath to avoid another public anxiety attack. I have just stirred the class in to loud, greedy laughter and the noise that I caused with a beaming smile on my face and tone in my voice, has finally gotten too loud. You are watching in those 3 passing seconds when I drop my head and bring my thumbs to my temples. I look down at my lap and try to block the sound from getting to me.
I am the "Of Course you got an A" girl. I am the over-achieving, class clown. I am those people you move to stand by. I could grab a wall flower by the hand and get them laughing and socializing just as I was. By that time, I am gone. Somewhere quit.
People expect you to fake it. Who ever said, "Look at that young lady with such a scowl on her face. My how pale. She must be quite an anxious person. How lovely! So honest! " NO WAY!!
People expect beauty. They expect my hair to never go bad. They expect strength.
I am only 22-years-old and already I feel that, because of my occasional bravery and decisiveness, those close to me except me to be 'The One '. I faked it for so long that no one believes I can feel this way. After time, I stop believing I think the things I do. I stop sleeping long enough to dream. I become a robot for everyone to smile with and enjoy.
My mother relies on me (and God for some reason) to hold her when she is weak. Which is most of the time. My brother relies on me to never have problems, so I can always be there for his. My best friend has turned me more into a shoulder to cry on (slash) legal advisor (slash) ride out.
We seem to have had the same college experiences. I did the same in most of my classes.
Does anyone honestly think that any amount of pills or talking will change any of this? Can Effexor or Paxil or Zoloft or Lithium or anything else, change my environment and change all of their expectations.
Until that stops, I will be this way.
Jennifer
Posted by Renee N on April 27, 2000, at 23:01:10
In reply to Re: Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Mark H. on April 27, 2000, at 20:33:04
> If we decide to believe the "resume" version of ourselves, it may work in the same way that putting on a play "works," but we risk feeling phony and fearing being found out. people. That's not about high seratonin levels.> Accurate self-knowledge means being aware of your strengths and weaknesses, not using the one to leverage yourself into a stressful position of major responsibility you can't sustain, nor using the other to keep yourself in a menial job for fear that your mood disorder might interfere with more meaningful work. It helps to find a middle ground in which income and title are balanced against things like good health the need to limit stress. Self esteem, in itself, offers nothing to help clarify these values or offer guidance in making important life decisions that will affect your health, happiness and productivity. Accurate self knowledge does.
>
> Very best wishes,
>
> Mark H.Mark,
Once again I must say to you, "Well said." You so accurately describe my feelings and especially my career struggles. It seems that whenever I have a job that I really enjoy, people want me to advance to the next level. I never feel confident enough to do it. When I was a social worker I feared court. I pictured the lawyers and judge raking me oover the coals for not doing enough or the wrong thing. I also didn't feel qualified to make life changing decisions for abused children even though I aced all the training courses. I eventually quit due to the stress.
Now people ask why I don't get a teaching certificate so I can be a regular classroom teacher instead of subbing. I love my job. I don't believe that my ADD symptoms of distracabilty, forgetfulness, and impulsiveness would help me in a job that involves so much planning, deadlines, and paperwork. Now I get to go in, enjoy my day sharing my love of learning and people, and go home with no more job related worries or responibilities on my shoulders. Still, a part of me feels like I am smarter than this, and am not contributing as much as I am able. I guess that I'd rather be a little underemployed than freaking out with anxiety in a "more professional" job.
Thank you for getting me thinking... Renee N
Posted by heather on April 28, 2000, at 0:32:03
In reply to Re: Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Noa on April 27, 2000, at 17:04:56
Thank you so much for your great explanation and understanding of the self esteem which can suddenly get pulled out right from under your feet. I am just now learning and understanding more about how it can effect every area of your life. I am working with my shrink to get the correct cocktail of meds and doses. I am amazed at how people actually respond to me when my mood is more stable and not all over the place. When I am constantly cycling, I keep very quiet so as not to totallty and conmpletely fall apart, because those are the times when My self esteem has gone south. I am so grateful to know that other people with this bipolar dx. experience this and that its not just me. I should probably join a therapy groupn with other bipolars, but I am afraid I would get too overwhelmed and also end up with some that are really too extreme for me.
Posted by Noa on April 28, 2000, at 10:39:27
In reply to I feel found out (to Mark H.), posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 22:40:37
> Does anyone honestly think that any amount of pills or talking will change any of this? Can Effexor or Paxil or Zoloft or Lithium or anything else, change my environment and change all of their expectations.
>
> Until that stops, I will be this way.
Jennifer, what I have learned, and am still working on learning is that the wish for all of those things to change is one that I should not rely on coming true, if I want to get well anytime soon. Not that it is bad to wish it. No, what can you expect of us, but to wish?And wishing ourselves to be different is also questionably achievable. I am working on accepting my self, strengths and weaknesses all, and trying to learn how to live my life in a way that takes those things into account, rather than fighting them.
It sounds like you have never been allowed to live a true childhood, as a child. You have this role of "the strong one" and you are beginning to realize how oppressive it is to have to carry out a role not of your own choosing. Medication hopefully will help with the biochemistry part, but you also need to explore your own self, what your wishes and desires are, to begin to learn how to define who you want to be. It is hard work, but well worth it.
I remember feeling something like you did, although I was never quite the all-around star you have been. The image I had was of the scene in the Wizard of Oz, where Toto pulls the curtain back to reveal the man posing as the all mighty Oz. I was anxious about people looking into me and seeing that despite all the good grades, etc., inside I was someone who had no idea who or what I was, and was afraid to even develop ideas of mine own. Therapy has helped me a lot.
Posted by l. on April 28, 2000, at 14:39:10
In reply to Re: Now that you brought it up…what is Self Esteem? , posted by kellyR. on April 20, 2000, at 22:13:07
> > This may seem like a silly discussion, but I've never had the guts to ask anyone this in person. I do not understand the concept of self-esteem. Maybe it is because I have rapid cycling bipolar disorder. So sometimes I love myself (10% of the time), but mostly I have wanted myself dead.
> >
> > I get aggravated and confused when people talk about self-esteem. It makes no sense to me.
> >
> > Is low self-esteem something separate from depression? could you have one without the other?
> >
> > What exactly is self-esteem?
> >
> > thanks, Janice
>
> Self-esteem is related to many forms of behavior. Persons who are high in self-esteem tend to be more confident in social situations & to report fewer negative emotions than presons who are low in self-esteem.In addition, they tend to perform better on many tasks-perhaps because high self-efficacy is often a part of high self-esteem.Moreover, they tend to beleive that they have done well on various tasks, even if this is not true.
> Some recent findings indicate that self-esteem may be linked to biochemical changes within the body; for instance,high self-esteem is associated w/ increased levels of SEROTONIN in the blood, & this neurotransmitter may play a role in effective functioning of the immune system.
> Whatever the specific mechanisms involved,having high self-esteem does seem to be beneficial in many different ways.
4 wht it's worth: self acceptance.It is not pride;pride is superiority.It is not being a door mat;that is masichism.It is not ashamed;not the worst;not th best; just th same;like all th rest.Equal but different.Non self-hatred.transcendence of the victimhood of th past(this is hard)it is freedom of learned helplessness,transcendence of th yearning 4 consolation(because U R now well)Love is letting go of fear.fear is sometimes convenient,one can hide in their human anti-depressant,(in my case)It is an awareness of degrading social mores (unwritten damaging esoteric unwritten beliefs that cause some somato form disorders across a broad spectrum.)One who knows others is wise;one who knows themself is mighty.
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