![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by KarenB on April 20, 2000, at 23:33:59
In reply to Now that you brought it up…what is Self Esteem? , posted by Janice on April 20, 2000, at 19:47:45
> This may seem like a silly discussion, but I've never had the guts to ask anyone this in person. I do not understand the concept of self-esteem. Maybe it is because I have rapid cycling bipolar disorder. So sometimes I love myself (10% of the time), but mostly I have wanted myself dead.
>
> I get aggravated and confused when people talk about self-esteem. It makes no sense to me.
>
> Is low self-esteem something separate from depression? could you have one without the other?
>
> What exactly is self-esteem?
>
> thanks, Janice
Janice,I think it's the way you feel that 10% of the time, Janice...but not to the point of delusion.
To me, depression is lack of hope in general ("everything sucks") - and maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck"). So, yes, I think they are separate but related issues.
Karen
Posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 2:54:05
In reply to Re: Now that you brought it up…what is Self Esteem? , posted by KarenB on April 20, 2000, at 23:33:59
Hi Janice,
Good question! While Kelly's answer is excellent and well balanced, I tend to agree more with those who would replace the concept of "self-esteem" (i. e., to have esteem for oneself, to "highly value" and "hold oneself in high regard") with the more useful concept of "accurate self knowledge."
People who got rich in the 1980s through arbitraging may have lots of self esteem, but their actions will still cost our children and grandchildren billions of dollars in taxes to cover the S&L failures they created on their way to personal wealth. A skillful serial killer or sexual psychopath may have high self esteem and take great pride in his ability to avoid capture. I don't think that was what their grade-school teachers had in mind, however.
Holding yourself in high regard is an abhorent concept in all spiritual paths. So why do we institutionalize self esteem in this country as though it were a cure-all for every social and personal ill? If you're confused by the concept of self esteem, I think that's a very positive sign.
Alternatively, "accurate self-knowledge" isn't about puffing yourself up or putting yourself down. It lets you off of the see-saw that the concept of self esteem seems to engender.
If you do something generous, kind, virtuous, positive, skillful, intelligent, thoughtful or productive, for instance, then being aware of it is a form of accurate self knowledge. Hopefully, reminding yourself of your good deeds will reinforce them in a positive way.
But the worst thing that could happen would be to let awareness of your good deeds increase your "self-esteem." Eventually, that becomes what T. S. Eliot in Murder in the Cathedral disdained in the lines, "The last temptation is the greatest treason / to do the right thing for the wrong reason." The real treason of pride is not a treason to others but to yourself.
Every major religion in the world speaks against pride, hubris, clinging to self. Yet we still put bumper-stickers on our station wagons that read, "Proud Parent of an Honor Student at Vacaville Middle School," as though our children's worth and lovability had anything to do with their grade point average. Just once I'd like to see a bumper sticker that said, "Humbly grateful that my kid is reasonably healthy and hasn't killed anybody this year."
Likewise, if you do something stupid, thoughtless, unkind, dishonest or unvirtuous, then being aware of that too is is a form of accurate self knowledge. You don't have to go into a big slump, discount the good you've done, or catastrophize the situation and imagine that you are now and forever an unredeemably awful person. Nor do you have to deny your mistakes and pretend they don't exist in order to maintain your "self esteem."
Awareness of your faults, mistakes and misdeeds can and should bring about appropriate regret and a commitment to do better, but it should *not* involve your "self-esteem" or lead to guilt and self-punishment. There's an important difference between "feeling guilty" and "feeling regret but making a commitment to change." Guilt is just the flip-side of pride, another indulgence and glorification of the self.
In application, the concept of self esteem cuts both ways. To the extent that teachers and counselors intend the concept to help children or adults have more accurate self knowledge and make more reasonable, balanced and *appropriately* positive self assessments, it can and is used as a tool for good.
However, in practice it is also used to write people off for their failures. "Why do fewer minority children make it to college? It's their lack of self esteem." "She's in an abusive marriage (or she dresses like that) because she has no self esteem." Etc., etc., ad nauseum. Very few people wake up to this nonsense and ask, "What's this self esteem stuff anyway? Is anyone discussing values here or are we only concerned with how we 'feel' about ourselves??"
I want to make it clear that I don't think everyone who uses the term or concept does so in a hollow, slogan-ish, or dismissive way. I am advocating use of different language so that we stop presuming we're all talking about the same thing when in fact most of us have very little understanding of what self esteem means.
Thanks for asking, Janice.
With warm regards,
Mark H.
Posted by CarolAnn on April 21, 2000, at 8:26:31
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 2:54:05
Once again, I must complement you on such a well thought out, and written post.
I like your way of thinking about self-esteem. It goes along the lines of the idea that self-centeredness, does not necessarily mean narsicism(sp?). Any form of ultra involvment with "self", be it love, or hate, can be called "self-centered". That said, I suppose that rather then using the term "low self-esteem", it might be more accurate to say one has, "low self-worth". This has always been one of my worst bug-a-boos. In fact, one of my strongest, early, memories is hearing my mother say, "You are more trouble than you are worth!" This is something that I've come to terms with in therapy, and I no longer blame her(she was just barely 18 when she had me). But when my depression gets out of control, my feelings still tend to run along the lines of being unworthy - unworthy wife, unworthy mother, unworthy of being loved, ect. So, do you think that I would be correct in changing the term "self-esteem" to "self-worth"? CarolAnn
Posted by KarenB on April 21, 2000, at 11:27:19
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 2:54:05
Mark,
Really great post. I agree with your definition and that "accurate self knowledge" is key to mental and spiritual health.
About the statement you made on "guilt" - do you mean to say, "shame?" I think that shame, rather than guilt, would be the flip side of pride. It is my understanding that guilt refers to a particular action that was wrong and the normal, healthy feeling of sorrow for one's actions that should follow. Shame rather says, "I am bad" and centers on unhealthy self evaluation. Shame, unlike guilt, does not promote change but only further wallowing. Would you agree?
Karen
Posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 13:04:18
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by KarenB on April 21, 2000, at 11:27:19
Geez, my computer crashed late last night, so I didn't get a chance to squeeze this in before Mark:
KarenB wrote:
> To me, depression is lack of hope in general ("everything sucks") - and maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck"). So, yes, I think they are separate but related issues.Well, Karen, that's only if you mean the "I suck" in an existential, holistic, evaluative way. If it's more performance-oriented, like "I suck" means "I can't do X", then we're back to self-efficacy (as alluded to by kelly above) which can actually be quite independent from self-esteem, taken from an expectancy x value perspective. ;^)
Borrowing from the Offspring, here's a simple, one question forced-choice low self-esteem measure ... it might help erase some doubts out there about the concept.
--------------------------------------------------
Please select the response that best describes how you feel for each statement:
1) The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care.
A) Very true for me
B) Somewhat true for me
C) Not that true for me
D) Not at all true for meYour response:_______
--------------------------------------------------
Mark wrote:
> Every major religion in the world speaks against pride, hubris, clinging to self. Yet we still put bumper-stickers on our station wagons that read, "Proud Parent of an Honor Student at Vacaville Middle School," as though our children's worth and lovability had anything to do with their grade point average.Personally, I kinda like the bumper stickers that say "My kid can beat up your Honor Student" ...
I'm glad you pointed those out, tho. In terms of what we know about the psychology of motivation to learn, those bumper stickers are a stupid idea. Like you said, it fosters a valuation of GPA, and GPA has little to do with how well a student learns wht they have been taught. It supports the pursuit of external rewards and not internal rewards.
In short, those bumper stickers are educational malpractice.
then KarenB wrote:
> About the statement you made on "guilt" - do you mean to say, "shame?" I think that shame, rather than guilt, would be the flip side of pride. It is my understanding that guilt refers to a particular action that was wrong and the normal, healthy feeling of sorrow for one's actions that should follow. Shame rather says, "I am bad" and centers on unhealthy self evaluation. Shame, unlike guilt, does not promote change but only further wallowing. Would you agree?One take on how we come up with excuses -- causal attribution theory -- claims that "guilt" is the feeling we get when a bad outcome is caused by something we did, but it's something we have control over and it doesn't have to happen again. "Shame", on the other hand, comes from a sense again that it's our own fault, but due to something that is out of our control to change and something we're stuck with.
If you agree with that assessment, then yeah, I'd say that shame fosters wallowing more than guilt would.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 16:48:26
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 13:04:18
Thanks for the great feedback. I've been attempting to articulate my thoughts about the use and misuse of the concept of self-esteem for a long time. Kelly's post really helped me, because she obviously has a very healthy and productive understanding of the terms.
CarolAnn, I think you're on the right track in thinking about your self-worth, especially given that devastating early phrase from your mother. I'm sure she would have given anything in the world to take it back if she knew what its effect on you was going to be. I'm not a parent, but I choke up even thinking that I've undoubtedly said things just as cruel to others, especially when I'm feeling like I'm the only person in the world who hurts.
Also, CarolAnn, as I read your response, and KarenB's and bob's, I realized also what I'm trying to say is that our feelings are basically not trustworthy -- especially so for those of us with mood disorders. So if we can use logic and reason (that's the "accurate" part of "accurate self-knowledge") to combat our feelings of worthlessness and despair, so much the better. If we've trained ourselves *not* to think, "I feel bad today, so I must be a bad person -- who'd want me? -- why would anyone value my opinion? -- who do I think I am?" etc., but instead to think, "I may feel bad (or giddily good, for that matter), but I'm a regular person with some good traits I want to encourage and increase, and some poor traits I'd like to change and improve" then I think we learn to cope with our ups and downs in a more realistic way and make daily decisions that are more in accord with our best values, those we choose when we're well and calm and have the ability to consider and care about other people's needs and suffering as well as our own.
KarenB made a great point of clarification for me -- she's right that the concept I was groping for is "shame." I can think of no positive value for shame when used as KarenB defines it, as opposed to what might be called "appropriate guilt" or regret for nonvirtuous speech and behavior. I think KarenB is right on in describing shame (not guilt) as the mirror-image of pride.
CarolAnn, there are days that I literally have to say to myself, "Have I killed anyone? Have I injured anyone? Have I stolen anything? Have I run anyone down with my car? Have I been cruel to my family, friends, co-workers or strangers?" etc. as a reality-check to see if my *feelings* of horribleness have any basis in reality, which they don't. Not that I haven't done bad things, especially when I was young, but that my *feelings* of worthlessness are not based in reality at all. That helps me to let go of the self-hatred sooner and to have more compassion for myself, without indulging in pity or puffery.
What would be useful in schools, I think, is to teach values clarification. There are values that we all have to accept whether we agree with them or not -- our country's constitution, state and local laws, the values we share with those we want to live with -- even Dr. Bob's minimalist but useful dictate to "be civil" or be barred from posting here. Most of us drive on the right side of the road! (A note to my alter-ego: don't split hairs about obeying all laws -- I'm painting with a broad brush here.)
Beyond that, values can diverge but need to be thought of consciously, considered, weighed and applied, if children and then adults are to experience integrity (itself a chosen value). That doesn't mean we don't have differences; only that we're clear and consistent, and that we are able to express them in a way that doesn't take away other people's health, safety, or dignity.
I love this list and the opportunities its given me to share and learn with some truly thoughtful, kind, open and wonderful people.
Thank you all so much for being here and for offering encouragement and support.
Appreciatively,
Mark H.
P. S. to my buddy, bob: Your lovely haiku went right over my head. I'm afraid I failed the test!
Posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Mark H. on April 21, 2000, at 16:48:26
haiku?! that was haiku? Gee, I'm a poet and ...nah. Too old a joke.
> ...I realized also what I'm trying to say is that our feelings are basically not trustworthy -- especially so for those of us with mood disorders. So if we can use logic and reason (that's the "accurate" part of "accurate self-knowledge") to combat our feelings of worthlessness and despair, so much the better....
Hmm ... I don't know if I can do that.
I mean, there are some psychologists that argue for cognitively-based emotions -- in other words, you need to experience something, process the information, and then you'll have some emotional response. The guilt/shame thing from attribution theory that I mentioned above is a good example. These sort of folks often talk about the CAB cycle -- cognition, affect, behavior ... we think, we feel, we respond overtly. That triggers a response from the environment, then CAB all over again.
That may work fine for more "complex" emotions, but there are some simple, primitive, "raw" emotions that get triggered without much thought at all. It doesn't even have to be some sort of conditioned response -- tho I'd put those in non-cognitive emotional responses -- it could be pure reaction. Like when you reach for the doorknob and someone opens it unexpectedly from the other side (got my girlfriend GOOD with that one tonight ... she jumped back four feet or so). Love at first sight. Nothing rational about these sorts of feelings, and I don't think there's any mantra you can recite to eliminate them from your life.
More to the point -- the most deeply seated esteem-busting feelings I have about myself have no basis that I can see in rationality, and they are impervious to contradictory, rational, fact-based arguments. For example:
Being "judged" wigs me out. I cannot help but believe I will be found wanting, no matter the issue. So, when facing any sort of task under the scrutiny of someone else, I cannot even start it. It kicks me into all sorts of OCD-like anxiety-managing/provoking behaviors. Now, I've been facing a deadline on a faculty minigrant at the college where I teach web design. (1) I have been told by the person running the grant program that I will most likely get the $3000 grant because she personally thinks my project is compelling and important. (2) My program director agrees 100% with this assessment. (3) The program is not highly competitive and multiple awards will be given out. (4) The skills needed to complete this project are easily within my capabilities. (5) I am an excellent academic writer, and (6) I'm about 10 for 10 on having grant proposals approved, with dollar amounts ranging from three to six figures. You would think there is absolutely no rational, fact-based argument that could be made to suggest I wouldn't get the grant if I could just sit down, write the 2-3 pages needed, and turn it in.
Whoever said I needed rationality to undermine my own efforts? Quite the opposite.
I missed the deadline (last Friday). The grant program director extended it for me (to next Monday). I did everything I could to avoid writing those stupid 2-3 pages until my girlfriend suggested I take 2mg of klonopin instead of my usual 1mg yesterday (Thursday). I did, and later that day I finished off the proposal in about 25 minutes.
Score: Medication 1, Rationality 0.
Maybe somewhere deep inside my psyche is some rational explanation for why I behave that way. Maybe the deeper such a kernal of self-hate is, the less of an effect any conscious thought will have on it. But I haven't peeled back enough layers of my mind to see that deep and dark ... yet.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Renee N on April 22, 2000, at 1:27:04
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
Bob,
Good for you for finally getting the proposal done. Good for your girlfriend for helping you to helpo yourself. (I'm assuming that it's okay with your doc to take the larger dose.)
I get terrible anxiety when I have to orally present something in front of a group for a grade. I'm fine talking in class, but if it's my work I'm presenting...shiver, shake, blackout...you get the picture.
I don't really have much to add about the self esteem issue, except that I've very much enjoyed the intelligent, thought provoking comments. You guys are awesome! I'm sure glad I don't have to present something in front of you. But then again, that's silly isn't it? Where else would I find a more compassionate, non-judgemental, and supportive group? Still, your knowledge and skill at sharing it can feel intimidating. Renee N
Posted by bob on April 22, 2000, at 2:15:24
In reply to To: bob, posted by Renee N on April 22, 2000, at 1:27:04
> (I'm assuming that it's okay with your doc to take the larger dose.)
Yep ... but when I get that anxious, the last thing I ever think about is how anxious I am -- I never think of taking a second tablet myself.
go figure,
bob
Posted by CarolAnn on April 22, 2000, at 8:31:24
In reply to anxiety blindspots, posted by bob on April 22, 2000, at 2:15:24
> Yep ... but when I get that anxious, the last thing I ever think about is how anxious I am -- I never think of taking a second tablet myself.
>
> go figure,
> bobbob, isn't it amazing the capacity we can have for being unable to see where we need help? I went thru too many looong trials of certain drugs before I took charge and got a new Pdoc.
Also, I can totally relate to your experience of having no "rational" reason to put off doing your project. I've had the same type of situation, mainly involving having no reason to be sad, or angry, embarassed, ect. I suppose that there may be answers locked deep within our brains, but until we have a full-proof way of unlocking them, we just have to deal with our mental health fallibilities the best we can. CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 13:56:25
In reply to Re: anxiety blindspots , posted by CarolAnn on April 22, 2000, at 8:31:24
Janice,
As I read all these wonderful posts, I think that my response to you is that what is so confusing about the concept of "self-esteem" for those of us with mood disorders is that our experiences of our self is at the mercy of our fluctuating biochemistry. This makes it hard to establish a steady, reliable sense of self that is "good enough". For me, medication helps to address this problem but therapy is also a key component of my treatment, because through therapy, I am trying to integrate the varying ways I experience myself and to bring them together somehow--the depressed me that has pathetically low self esteem, and the not-depressed me, that feels I am a worthy human being. For people who have hypomanic or manic episodes, the work of integration would involve also the more elated sense of self, as well, I suppose.
Posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 13:04:18
>maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck").
This is sort of tangential, but I saw the movie, Keeping the Faith, last night, and there is a nice scene in it in which Ben Stiller's character, the Rabbi, is working with a Bar Mitzvah boy who is having the hardest time mastering his Torah reading. His voice is changing and when he tries to sing the words, it is just excruciating. The kid says, "I suck." First, the Rabbi takes the smooth-over, superficially protect the self-esteem approach, and says, "you do not suck". The kid leans forward and with assertive conviction, repeats, "I suck". The Rabbi concedes, "OK, yes, you do suck", but goes on to explain how sucking can be embraced. I wish I can remember all of the elements of his speech at this point, but it was great. It was about how the kid could acknowledge he sucked at this, and accept that his voice change makes him sound awful, and take on the challenge of doing his responsibilities for this rite of passage despite these obstacles. It was funny and thoughtful at the same time. I am sure it sounds very trite in my retelling, but I think the scene was well done.
Posted by Cindy W on April 22, 2000, at 21:05:18
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 14:31:34
> >maybe low self esteem is lack of hope in myself ("I suck").
>
> This is sort of tangential, but I saw the movie, Keeping the Faith, last night, and there is a nice scene in it in which Ben Stiller's character, the Rabbi, is working with a Bar Mitzvah boy who is having the hardest time mastering his Torah reading. His voice is changing and when he tries to sing the words, it is just excruciating. The kid says, "I suck." First, the Rabbi takes the smooth-over, superficially protect the self-esteem approach, and says, "you do not suck". The kid leans forward and with assertive conviction, repeats, "I suck". The Rabbi concedes, "OK, yes, you do suck", but goes on to explain how sucking can be embraced. I wish I can remember all of the elements of his speech at this point, but it was great. It was about how the kid could acknowledge he sucked at this, and accept that his voice change makes him sound awful, and take on the challenge of doing his responsibilities for this rite of passage despite these obstacles. It was funny and thoughtful at the same time. I am sure it sounds very trite in my retelling, but I think the scene was well done.Having read the posts above, I can really relate. For me, I think, what it takes for self-esteem is first through therapy realizing that if the therapist can accept me, with all my "sucky" qualities, I must be OK. Am in my second real therapy, I think (having forgotten from the first time that there is nothing wrong with the way I am or how I feel). Why do I keep forgetting that 'I suck' is OK?
Posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? / Janice, posted by Cindy W on April 22, 2000, at 21:05:18
I don't know why I'm still confused. Maybe because mental illnesses get in the way of any psycholocial definations. Maybe once I am stable for a year or so, I will be able to understand this concept.
After reading all your posts, I can only define it (for myself right now), as a feeling that 'I know I have a right to exist.'
Janice
Posted by bob on April 23, 2000, at 0:46:23
In reply to I am still confused…you've written great answers, posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
> I don't know why I'm still confused.
Janice, the psychologists who study this thing called "self-esteem" can't even agree on what it is, so being confused is probably quite appropriate.
Now, that MAY be because it really is an ill-defined, poorly understood concept; OR, it could be because they need to publish (or perish!), so they all come up with their own definitions of what "self-esteem" is, hoping that others will use THEIR definition and not someone else's, thereby boosting their own self-esteem as well as their esteem in the eyes of their colleagues.
I hope that makes sense.
bob
Posted by Janice on April 23, 2000, at 11:19:30
In reply to Re: I am still confused…join the club, posted by bob on April 23, 2000, at 0:46:23
> > I don't know why I'm still confused.
>
> Janice, the psychologists who study this thing called "self-esteem" can't even agree on what it is, so being confused is probably quite appropriate.
>
> Now, that MAY be because it really is an ill-defined, poorly understood concept; OR, it could be because they need to publish (or perish!), so they all come up with their own definitions of what "self-esteem" is, hoping that others will use THEIR definition and not someone else's, thereby boosting their own self-esteem as well as their esteem in the eyes of their colleagues.
>
> I hope that makes sense.
> bob
Posted by CarolAnn on April 24, 2000, at 8:48:50
In reply to I am still confused…you've written great answers, posted by Janice on April 22, 2000, at 23:29:07
>>>>
> After reading all your posts, I can only define it (for myself right now), as a feeling that 'I know I have a right to exist.'
>
> Janice
>>>>
BINGO! Janice! And not *just* "I know I have a right to exist."
But also, "I have a right to *my* feelings. My feelings are *valid*, and I have the right to feel them!" and "I have a right to set up bounderies to protect myself from other's feelings and judgements!". "Because I have the right to my feelings, I have the right to explore and try to understand them, and to find the best way to express them." "YES, I have the right to express my feelings, though I will try to do it constructively and not out of a need to 'hit back' or 'lash out' at people, who may not even realize they have wronged me."
The above knowledge is some of the result of my two years of therapy. I hope you find it applicable! Best wishes! CarolAnn
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 21:12:58
I'm sorry if this submission is out of place. I don't have the mental energy to read any of the long posts. I did have some feelings on the subject, though.
I think that one's self-esteem is the result of his comparing himself to everyone else around him. What answers are arrived at to the questions "how do I compare" and "where do I fit" are dependent upon everything they have previously experienced and the messages they were given by the people around them. How one reacts to these events is influenced by a biological template that includes temperament, cognition, and mood. How one feels about themself is the result of what answers they come up with. This is self-esteem.
One can think of himself as being the most important and gifted person in the world and still feel like the most inferior.
This is how things seem to work for me, anyway. It doesn't seem to be so complicated.
Sorry.
- Scott
Posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 11:56:38
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
Scott - I feel the same way as you. I do not think that any of us really 'fit in'. We all have a picture of the outside world in our head, but, like science, it is only an approximation of what really "is". Things like truth, beauty, and intelligence are so subjective, as well as transient.We are limited as to what we can understand by our 5 senses, but our approximations (ie science) does give us a good idea of what is and what can be.
I do believe in fate (sort of). I think that every action or thought that we have is a result of our past experiences (starting at conception). Therefore anything we do, say or think is restricted by these experiences. I think our self esteem also arises from these experiences.
I really think that self-actualization is unobtainable and that we really could not (or want to) live at such a level.
I believe that you have to live by a motto; your own or probably someone else's. You try to stick to this motto as best you can and not beat yourself up when you do deviate from it (something that I still have to learn).
My motto comes from a line in a song called 'Uncle John's Band" by the Grateful Dead:
...all, I want to know is, "Are you kind?"
Where "kind" has 2 meanings: Are you nice and helpful to other people and are you like everyone else. The first has to be worked on and the second just is.
I am sorry to hear that you are hurting right now and wish I could help in some way, but remember that there are always better days ahead. Down times never really last forever. This is easy to say, but hard to realize sometimes.
I, and I am sure many others on this board, have benefited greatly from your knowledge and advise. You have taught me almost more in the last few months than I have learned in the last 16 years of practice.
Thinking of you (sorry to ramble) - Cam
Posted by JohnB on April 25, 2000, at 2:44:15
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 24, 2000, at 9:25:12
Nice definition Scott . . . . .
I've also found that "self esteem" isn't much of an issue when the meds are really working.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 25, 2000, at 23:18:12
In reply to Re: what is Self Esteem? - To Scott, posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 11:56:38
> I really think that self-actualization is unobtainable and that we really could not (or want to) live at such a level.
I guess Maslow was just teasing us with a carrot on a stick.
- Scott
Posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
In reply to Re: Now that you brought it up…what is Self Esteem? , posted by kellyR. on April 20, 2000, at 22:13:07
I read some peoples opinions about self esteem. I am confident. I am a communications major in college and I do very well in front of audiences. I hold my head up when I walk. But, why is it that some days I love myself so much that I want to climb the tallest tree and then other days I want to bury myself. According to the seratonin/self esteem theory, being confident and such means I have enough balance of seratonin, but what about the days I want to die? Does it just go away for a bit? It makes it difficult for me to help myself when I do not understand myself. All of my friends have no clue that I have problems. I seemed to be fooling everyone. Even my therapist, it seems. I cant seem to tell anyone that can help me that I feel this way. It is such a roller coaster. I am trying Zoloft right now to slow the coaster down. Am I just sheltering myself those times I feel happy? Am I even fooling myself? Who else does these things?
Posted by Noa on April 27, 2000, at 17:04:56
In reply to Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
For those of us with mood disorders, your description of the ups and downs in SE really fit. Our experiences of ourselves do seem to be mood dependent. Getting a hold of the cycling is a good idea. Be cautious about the antidepressants--titrate up on your doses slowly, and monitor your moods. If you feel yourself going too far in the up direction, tell your doc immediately. Good luck. And BTW, be as open and hones with your therapist as you can about how your really feel. Keep us posted.
Posted by Mark H. on April 27, 2000, at 20:33:04
In reply to Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Jennifer on April 27, 2000, at 16:32:44
Dear Jennifer,
Your story is a good example of why I earlier suggested replacing the concept of self-esteem with some other way of thinking about ourselves that reflects the fact that how we *feel* is often irrelevant and does not accurately represent our achievements, worthiness, lovability, compassion, intelligence, benefit to others, or any other value we may hold -- not to mention that we are constantly changing. This seems to be especially true for those of us with mood disorders.
If we decide to believe the "resume" version of ourselves, it may work in the same way that putting on a play "works," but we risk feeling phony and fearing being found out. Have any of your friends ever said after you did something especially well, "Oh my God, of course you got an 'A' in Applied Conflict Management, but you're Jennifer!" as though a different set of expectations apply to you than to "ordinary" people. That's not about high seratonin levels.
The "seratonin effect" of the alpha-female involves people who are consistently and naturally sure of themselves, who have a thoroughly integrated belief in their utter right to belong. It doesn't mean they don't experience self-doubt and bad-hair days, just that it would never occur to them they might *not* be chosen for the team, and if they weren't, then something is probably wrong with the team, anyway. They don't expect to get "A's" all the time, and if there are subjects they can't master, those subjects are just "outside their area of expertise." They don't expect to master everything; they just expect to pass and be liked, a lot, by everybody. And they are. Even those of us who see through it like to stand next to them at parties, just to feel what it's like, just to listen to someone talk about themselves without the slightest waver to their voice, a total absence of doubt that anything they say, however ordinary, will be received as anything but fascinating.
What you're describing is more familiar to people on this list. It involves periods of stellar performance that come so easily that the person experiencing it wonders why people think it's special -- maybe others just aren't applying themselves -- followed by periods when we wonder whether we're even qualified to be there at all, since our professors are now talking near-gibberish and reading becomes laborious as comprehension and concentration slip from our grasp.
When I had a difficult instructor who was determined to give me a "B" if he could, I simply memorized his textbook, so that on exams I could visualize the page and cite the paragraph which addressed the question, quoting accurately from memory. Later, I would skate through class after class in a self-absorbed fog without a clue as to where we were, and then "pull a rabbit out of the hat" at the end of the quarter through an act of sheer will, often getting a grade based on a few moments of lucidity and desperate creativity but very, very little work or study. I'm not proud of it -- it's just the only way I knew to survive.
If I had it all to do over again, I would declare my disability early on, insist on help and accommodation, and get a real education rather than simply completing an exercise in survival and political manipulation of academic bureaucracy. I would keep two "resumes," one to remind myself of my achievements and abilities, the other to remind myself of my demons and limitations. I would actively choose to be non-ambitious, instead applying my values to everything I did, including discussing my limitations with professors and department heads, working out systems of support and assistance for the "learning disability" aspects of my mood disorder, and holding myself and the school to the letter and spirit of the Americans with Disabilities Act to ensure that the university and I could both be confident of what I had accomplished by the time I graduated.
Accurate self-knowledge means being aware of your strengths and weaknesses, not using the one to leverage yourself into a stressful position of major responsibility you can't sustain, nor using the other to keep yourself in a menial job for fear that your mood disorder might interfere with more meaningful work. It helps to find a middle ground in which income and title are balanced against things like good health the need to limit stress. Self esteem, in itself, offers nothing to help clarify these values or offer guidance in making important life decisions that will affect your health, happiness and productivity. Accurate self knowledge does.
Very best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Cindy W on April 27, 2000, at 21:02:56
In reply to Re: Self Esteem...Mine and then it isn't , posted by Noa on April 27, 2000, at 17:04:56
> For those of us with mood disorders, your description of the ups and downs in SE really fit. Our experiences of ourselves do seem to be mood dependent. Getting a hold of the cycling is a good idea. Be cautious about the antidepressants--titrate up on your doses slowly, and monitor your moods. If you feel yourself going too far in the up direction, tell your doc immediately. Good luck. And BTW, be as open and hones with your therapist as you can about how your really feel. Keep us posted.
Noa, my self-esteem varies with my depression and the waxing and waning of OCD. At times, even though I want to be really honest with my pdoc, I'm afraid even he'll reject me, because I feel so worthless.
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